James J Johnson Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 1 hour ago, thehumantorch said: Sorry, not an accurate way to detect trimming. Size of comics printed in the past vary as it's a cheap printing process. +1 Anyone using size alone to determine trim is using the same method as coin flips, IMO Pink Nightmare, Randall Dowling, PovertyRow and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 1 minute ago, James J Johnson said: +1 Anyone using size alone to determine trim is using the same method as coin flips, IMO 100%! Such a suggestion makes me question the veracity of the OP's knowledge. The Lions Den, Pink Nightmare and Randall Dowling 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypost Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Qalyar said: I'm quite familiar with tantalum carbide. I'd be... let's say very interested to hear how you think that's relevant to converting printed ink to a "liquid state" or any of the rest of this... Nothing you have said here does anything to convince me that your "process" does what you claim, much less that it does so in a way that is fundamentally undetectable. A little dab will do ya. I am guessing he is using these rapidly cooling metals to first heat the ink till it becomes pliable or liquid, and then carefully dab or smear the ink where the color breaks are. Almost like creating a very tiny iron on transfer. Randall Dowling, KCOComics and The Lions Den 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumantorch Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 1 hour ago, deczola said: I've yet to come across a AMS 129 or a Hulk 181 or Xmen 94 that vary in size dimensions. Each of those issues measured against other exact issues will have the same size. I've come across trimmed issues of those that when matched against issues of the same print run clearly show the issue trimmed. Production was more uniform on 'newer' books from the BA era than the GA or SA but from my experience there is variation across all eras. Comparing books from the same issue or similar issues can help you spot trimming, i.e. they sliced off a lot and it's very obvious, and I use that all the time as a quick check, but it won't help you detect a small amount of trimming. If you're not aware of Jason Ewart and his micro-trimming I'd suggest you google that. Randall Dowling, Catwomancomics and The Lions Den 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumantorch Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, joeypost said: A little dab will do ya. I am guessing he is using these rapidly cooling metals to first heat the ink till it becomes pliable or liquid, and then carefully dab or smear the ink where the color breaks are. Almost like creating a very tiny iron on transfer. Wouldn't that be easy to spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lions Den Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, thehumantorch said: Wouldn't that be easy to spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, thehumantorch said: Wouldn't that be easy to spot? Even if it initially was not detected, in time it would probably just be another thing to look for in the resto check. I am, however, still confused as to how the rosette pattern impacts this idea of a crease cover up. Depending on where the crease/color break is there are a lot of variations along that line that can shift to different levels of CYMK. Edited May 2, 2021 by PovertyRow spelling The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypost Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 2 hours ago, thehumantorch said: Wouldn't that be easy to spot? One would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwomancomics Posted May 2, 2021 Share Posted May 2, 2021 2 hours ago, thehumantorch said: Production was more uniform on 'newer' books from the BA era than the GA or SA but from my experience there is variation across all eras. Comparing books from the same issue or similar issues can help you spot trimming, i.e. they sliced off a lot and it's very obvious, and I use that all the time as a quick check, but it won't help you detect a small amount of trimming. If you're not aware of Jason Ewart and his micro-trimming I'd suggest you google that. Thank you for the Jason Ewart reference. thehumantorch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William-James88 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 It's still restoration. Might be caught, might not be. Let us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 7 hours ago, The Lions Den said: You can say that again! The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vheflin Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 Even if such a thing were possible and undetectable... older scans of the same copy pre-touchup would get you buuusssted The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D84 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 The reason most people hate restoration is that it was undisclosed and they feel like they were cheated. This is no different. Trying to make it undetectable by CGC is dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deczola Posted May 4, 2021 Author Share Posted May 4, 2021 On 5/2/2021 at 10:09 AM, James J Johnson said: A perfect match? If you gave me a pile of 1000 Silver age comics, even of the same issue, I'd be hard pressed to find 2 out of the 1000 that were precisely the same size and both cut with precise uniformity, that is, perfectly plumb rectangles, not to mention the level of overhang and page protrusion greatly varying. While size, in and of itself, can indicate a potentially trimmed book, necessitating a closer inspection, the page ends themselves, and their symmetry, are the determiners of trim. . I am in agreement with all on this issue. It is a very in depth discussion and use what I stated as a quick reference. I deal in many collectables and I need to be able to identify things of this nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostboys Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 I don't really understand how cleaning and pressing are cool but this is not. Who decided what is ethical and what is not? It's all restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttock Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 On 5/2/2021 at 12:03 PM, joeypost said: A little dab will do ya. I am guessing he is using these rapidly cooling metals to first heat the ink till it becomes pliable or liquid, and then carefully dab or smear the ink where the color breaks are. Almost like creating a very tiny iron on transfer. I'm working on a method where I shrink myself down to submillimeter size with a whole bunch of buckets of paint and brushes and just work out the dot matrix myself while repairing the fiber breaks. It's in the early stages, but I don't want to share any other secrets with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William-James88 Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 On 5/2/2021 at 10:12 PM, vheflin said: Even if such a thing were possible and undetectable... older scans of the same copy pre-touchup would get you buuusssted That's ok. Removing an image from the World Wide Web is easy peasy. vheflin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B2D327 Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 There are methods to trimming that are undetectable and they’re not done with an exacto knife and can be done to the tiniest micron of an inch. I can’t see color touch being so precise as not all color breaks occur on solid blocks of color. How time consuming would it be in order to “fix” every color break on a heavily detailed work from an artist who uses an extreme amount of cross hatching and feathering, changes in line weight, etc. Your restoration would be pretty limited to those breaks over solid color and any overlapping would more than likely show if it was more than a hairs width of the crease itself. Have you also considered the likelihood of “bleed through” in the areas where the paper’s integrity is compromised? Call me a doubting Thomas but I can’t see it happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE_BEYONDER Posted May 7, 2021 Share Posted May 7, 2021 On 5/4/2021 at 12:24 PM, lostboys said: I don't really understand how cleaning and pressing are cool but this is not. Who decided what is ethical and what is not? It's all restoration. CGC D84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted May 8, 2021 Share Posted May 8, 2021 On 5/4/2021 at 9:24 AM, lostboys said: I don't really understand how cleaning and pressing are cool but this is not. Who decided what is ethical and what is not? It's all restoration. I actually agree. My own definition of "restoration" is any process designed to revert a book closer to its original condition. It is not strictly contingent to "adding something" to the book, although that is certainly an important criteria, just not the ONLY criteria IMHO. The problem with dry cleaning and pressing is, when done properly, it is not detectable. If CGC started giving restored or conserved labels to some books that have been cleaned and pressed (and a bad clean press is detectable) then CGC can be perceived as saying any book that does NOT have that clean/press notation hasn't been cleaned/pressed. The problem I DO have with lumping in this color touch process with C&P is that you are actually adding a foreign substance to mask a physical problem. If there is color break there is probably fiber damage and a weakened part of the book. Hiding that is unfair unless it is properly notated. As far as who decides, as has been said, in this scenario, CGC does and the "market" does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
