The Promise Collection 3 3

[Badger]

14 hours ago, aardvark88 said:

Matt Nelson and Heritage comic specialist speaketh and Promise:

 

 

Really cool! Thanks for posting!

[Badger]

 

52 minutes ago, Straw-Man said:

word is they felt the 3 was 10.0, but labeling it as such might bring them charges of even more grievous criminal conduct from jimbo_7071. 

[The Lions Den]

On 5/13/2021 at 2:17 PM, lou_fine said:

Would your short list of 15 that you are aware of include this CCS "mouse chewed" copy of Subby 23 here:    

If we assume this book is a 9.6 before factoring in the mouse chew, I do see how they ended up in the VF range. Since the chew appears to go through the entire book, I'd choose 7.5. So yes, perhaps a bit generous on this one...but it's still a gorgeous copy, IMO...

Edited May 14, 2021 by The Lions Den

[path4play]

16 hours ago, aardvark88 said:

Matt Nelson and Heritage comic specialist speaketh and Promise:

 

 

Thanks for sharing.  Not apologetic in briefly referencing the "wisdom of the crowd" on cgc board (presumably in regard to grading).  But don't really need to be, given the whales that are going to inhale these.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by path4play

[jimjum12]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

choose 7.5.

GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[The Lions Den]

On 5/13/2021 at 2:21 PM, lou_fine said:

Or this CGC 9.6 graded copy of Punch Comics 19 since I never realized all of these staple issues and spine crapola was allowed on a CGC 9.6:    

For what it's worth, I'd be thinking a 9.4. But I'm extremely impressed by the overall look of this book...

Edited May 14, 2021 by The Lions Den

[Dr. Love]

5 hours ago, tth2 said:

The answer to all comic-related questions is Halperin.

That is correct. 

Question:  which comic multi-generational family has a hand in two out of three certification companies?

Answer:  Verzyl?  Reece?  Halerpin?  Saunders?  Anderson?

New PGX location opened in Florida.  "The PGX team will be joined by Industry and Collectibles experts, Mikey Halperin and Mike Carbonaro".

See, didn't I tell youse guys about Mikey H?

 

[tth2]

11 hours ago, Straw-Man said:

word is they felt the 3 was 10.0, but labeling it as such might bring them charges of even more grievous criminal conduct from jimbo_7071. 

Plus Dean would've burst a blood vessel.

[jimbo_7071]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:00 PM, Bookery said:

Yes, and no.

Every dealer, and every collector who sometimes sells or trades a book, technically has the same conflict of interest.  I grade all of the comics I sell.  And yet I obviously have a financial stake in the book as well.  The guard against overstating a book in order to increase its value is called "reputation".  Every seller generates a reputation via their talent for grading or presenting merchandise fairly.  But whether a seller offers a numerical grade, a letter grade, of just says "looks great!", they are offering an opinion, and valuing their item based on that opinion.  I think people often forget that in the end, CGC is just offering an opinion, and in this case selling that opinion through Heritage... which essentially is no different than any other dealer.  The public ultimately determines a dealer's reputation, even if the "dealer" is a CGC-Heritage co-op.  

The individual graders likely aren't thinking about CGC's reputation when they grade the books. They're not supposed to know whose books they're grading, but with a new pedigree collection like this one, word gets around. The graders know that Heritage has a stake in CGC, so in the back of their minds they must be thinking that they need to keep Heritage happy, even if no one in management says a word to them. Even if Heritage didn't own a stake in CGC, the fact that they're CGC's biggest customer would probably get them special treatment, which is a separate but related issue. Raw grading is subjective, but CGC was supposed to take some of the subjectivity out of the equation. They have failed. Their grading standards haven't been published, but one would hope that those standards are fairly clear, e.g., "For a color-breaking crease that is longer than one-half inch but shorter than one inch, deduct one point or grade the book 6.0 if deducting one point would take the book below that grade," etc. If a book that has had an entire corner chewed off by a rat can get a grade of 8.5, then either there is something wrong with the standards, or the standards are not being followed. CGC's reputation will suffer as a direct result of the way this collection was graded. Collectors will be talking about this loose grading for years. I have not found a single high-grade book in this auction that was graded accurately. In fact, I have not found a single high-grade book that was over-graded by only one increment. Every book has been over-graded by at least two increments and usually by three or four increments. I have never seen anything like this.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[N e r V]

I kind of doubt that. If anything all the talk good or bad about the Promise collection has done nothing but create buzz for the upcoming auctions. It’s increased the awareness. People will buy the books as they always do based on their appearance. If enough people feel it’s over graded then it’ll probably hurt it’s market value but honestly people over and under pay on books all the time for a variety of reasons. I already know a few people who are ready to bid the kind of expected numbers for books in these grades so somethings working. 
 

As they say The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.…

[lou_fine]

4 hours ago, tth2 said:

15 hours ago, Straw-Man said:

word is they felt the 3 was 10.0, but labeling it as such might bring them charges of even more grievous criminal conduct from jimbo_7071. 

Plus Dean would've burst a blood vessel.

What issue 3 are you guys talking about here?  

Are you guys talking about the Promise Collection copy of Mystery Men 3 being a 10.0 because that would be perfect timing to see a CGC 9.6 Church copy square off against a CGC 10.0 Promise copy?      

[Sarg]

10 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

If a book that has had an entire corner chewed off by a rat can get a grade of 8.5, then either there is something wrong with the standards, or the standards are not being followed. 

 

Exactly. And I'd like to see books graded in the past with a similar defect, and the grade it was given. If they were consistently lower than 8.5, why the inconsistency? And if we can demonstrate inconsistent grading, what is the purpose of having a grading standard? 

[Bookery]

15 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

If a book that has had an entire corner chewed off by a rat can get a grade of 8.5, then either there is something wrong with the standards, or the standards are not being followed. 

If it was determined that the rat was chewing the corner off at the time the collection was being assembled, then it's a much higher grade than if the rat were from a 2nd or 3rd generation and chomped down years later.  CGC obvioulsy determined that the chew was from an original-owner pedigree rat.  Also, if the rat chewed the corner off while it sat at the printers, then it's a production defect, and there should be no reduction in grade.

 

[Edit -- apologizes to Catman-America... just saw this was covered in the "other" thread.]

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Bookery
spelling

[jimbo_7071]

1 hour ago, Bookery said:

If it was determined that the rat was chewing the corner off at the time the collection was being assembled, then it's a much higher grade than if the rat were from a 2nd or 3rd generation and chomped down years later.  CGC obvioulsy determined that the chew was from an original-owner pedigree rat.  Also, if the rat chewed the corner off while it sat at the printers, then it's a production defect, and there should be no reduction in grade.

 

[Edit -- apologizes to Catman-America... just saw this was covered in the "other" thread.]

 

Yeeaah . . . I've never been too keen on the way they overlook bindery tears. A tear is a tear. I don't care where it happened.

[alexgross.com]

i know this has been covered, but for those who havent seen, the ridiculousness of some of these grades truly undermines cgc's cred. i still adore this book, but the amount of latitude granted here is questionable, imho.

 

[tth2]

On 5/15/2021 at 2:27 PM, lou_fine said:

Are you guys talking about the Promise Collection copy of Mystery Men 3 being a 10.0

No early Foxes in the Promise Collection. 

[Straw-Man]

5 minutes ago, tth2 said:

No early Foxes in the Promise Collection. 

that will save me the angst of not being able to hang on finding an upgrade.

[batman_fan]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:17 PM, lou_fine said:

Would your short list of 15 that you are aware of include this CCS "mouse chewed" copy of Subby 23 here:    

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/sub-mariner-comics-23-the-promise-collection-pedigree-timely-1947-cgc-vf-85-off-white-to-white-pages/p/7244-175249.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

 

 

 

Graders notes:

severe bindery chip, lower left

[batman_fan]

I don't know why folks don't do what they have been doing for over a decade and constantly touting on the boards "buy the book, not the label".  If you think the book looks overgrazed, take a pass.  If you think it looks overgraded but is going for a decent price bid on it.  If you think the grade is spot on, go hard after it.  Remember, we are the folks that would literally buy from Hitler or Satan if they had something we "needed".

[batman_fan]

On 5/13/2021 at 1:55 PM, MrBedrock said:

I know it is purely speculation on my part, but given a) the conflict of interest issues pointed out in this thread, b) the grading for profit incentives also apparently at play, c) the potential tens of millions of dollars at stake and motivational incentives that result, and d) the mysterious and anonymous back story of the original owner, his brother and how the books ultimately arrived at Heritage's door, it seems obvious that Ed Jaster and Lon Allen (the consignment directors at Heritage) murdered the older brother and took the collection for their own personal gain.

reminds me of that South Park episode where they are junior detectives and solve the case of the missing pie.

Edited May 16, 2021 by batman_fan