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If you had $5000 to invest in comics.........
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Would you get  

120 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you get

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95 posts in this topic

I don't necessarily buy the argument of many on this board that gold/silver/bronze age comics won't be wanted by collectors in 30 years (due to changing demographics of the collector base)

 

I don't think anybody on the Board is making this argument. What I, and others, have said, though, is that we believe that there will be less demand in the future than in the current uber-speculative environment and less willingness to shell out the big $$$ from people who were not indoctrinated into the comics hobby when it actually was a thriving hobby. There is a huge difference.

 

Gene

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Six of one, half a dozen of the other...you say there will be less demand due to the prices, I say they will be too expensive to be in demand. However, I have no doubt that comics will always be desirable due to their historical significance, sense of nostalgia, and the good ole collectability of Americana, even if comic books (as we know them) are no longer produced. Our positions are coming from different angles, but intersect at the point of comic books currently being too expensive to expect valuation increase of the last 10 years in the next 10. However, I don't see that really stopping us from continuing to build our collections! wink.gif

 

I wasn't around when Golden Age comics were produced, but I sure like to collect 'em (and many others do as well). This is a position that many here don't seem to accept, and your response alludes to this position - that the only books people collect are the books they read when they were 8-10-12 years old. I'm sure this is true of a lot of collectors (and is where I started out), but there are plenty of collectors whose collecting interests expand beyond the "comics of their youth".

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ah, but I think you're missing the underlying gist of his argument. You started collecting books when you were a child and moved on to bigger and better things. The argument is, and I tend to agree with it, is that the base number of new comic book readers is dropping precipitously every year, and with the smaller number of readers, there will be a corresponding smaller number of comic book back issue buyers, and then an even smaller number of big spenders.

 

This is already happening for comics that are no longer in the "mainstream" - look at the number of Fawcett books that sit unsold, for example. Nobody in their prime buying age read either them or their more contemporary counterparts, so there is no nostalgia to get the originals.

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I used to love the Punisher and Deathlok when I was younger but as I have come back to the hobby this past year I found out that Batman is really my number one character now. I agree that people's collecting interests can expand beyond what they read at the ages of 8-10-12 but if kids don't start reading any comics at 8-10-12 I find it hard to think that they will all of a sudden want to pick up a comic book at the age of 30.

 

I do think that comics will always have signficance from the Americana aspect, but regarding investment I agree that the returns of the last 10 years cannot be extrapolated to the next 10 years. Personally, I only spend my discretionary income on comics now. I would recommend to all board members to only spend an amount that they are comfortable with.

 

To get back to the original question, if I had $5K I would also focus more of several $50-$500 books to spread my risk. I would avoid all modern books and would look more towards attractive covers, well known artists, and time tested characters. All my Deathlok books, and God knows I love 'em, are not worth too much these days. I would focus on a more main stream character with good movie potential (or any other cross selling for that matter, ie video games) such as Wolverine, Spider-Man, Superman (and my personal favorite) Batman.

 

And of course - pay attention to the price paid. At a certain price almost anything becomes a good investment and almost anything becomes a bad investment.

 

DAM

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I think you're both on to something here.

 

YES-- It is common for collectors to expand from collecting books from their youth to books from earlier periods. Witness me collecting Comic Cavalcade, Flash Comics and Star-Spangled Comics, or Murph collecting Captain America Comics.

 

BUT-- I believe the entry point is a fondness for the then-current comics continuity...

 

AND-- ...a healthy editorial respect by the publishers for the past as part of the present continuity. That is, part of what I like about the Golden Age DC books is that they tell the history of the "Earth-2" universe. I suspect lots of Timely collectors got on board because these were supposed to be the stories of the same Captain America and Submariner that Stan & Jack later used.

 

DC has done an okay job recently in trying to re-forge the link between the present and the past that they severed in their Crisis miniseries. I'm thinking of Sandman & Sandman Mystery Theatre, Jack Robinson's Starman series, and the current JSA book.

 

The characters will no doubt survive the possible demise of monthly comics. But without a firmer editorial control over their presentations in films, on the Cartoon Network, or where-ever, I fear we'll lose the thread from the present to the past that has turned generations of readers into collectors.

 

Cheers,

Z.

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Well as i have said a couple of times in this thread, nothing is guaranteed. I have no idea what the next 10 or 20 years will be like - no one does. But I think certain characters will remain popular - I hope - and there will continue to be an audience. The specific stuff I would look at would be high grade meaning vf and up Marvels from 1961 thru 1979. Focus on the great artists and stories and keys in the $50 to $500 range. If you are good at grading, by all means by them non-slabbed. You may hit the jackpot like Greggy has a couple of times or Bob did with that Hulk 162. Spcific books - Spidey 39,40,41,44,46,50,51,53-56,97-102,119-122,129: Hulk Ann1; Ghost Rider 1, Spotlight 5-11; FF 21-60,100,112; X-men 10-19,49-66, 94-101; Journey into Mystery ; Suspense. I am pretty much a Marvel collector and that's where my experience lies so I am not as sure about DC investing . I am assuming with your stated amount of $5k you are relatively financially secure and have other investments? I would not tell someone with $5000 and that is all to blow it all on comics - you should only invest as much as you are willing to lose is a good phrase to go by.

Edited by clobberintime
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I am assuming with your stated amount of $5k you are relatively financially secure and have other investments? I would not tell someone with $5000 and that is all to blow it all on comics - you should only invest as much as you are willing to lose is a good phrase to go by.

 

The whole premise of the post is that someone has $5k to invest in comics. The question was not "What would you recommend investing $5k in?", or "Should I invest $5k in comic books?"

 

Unfortunately, it took Gene less than 10 minutes from the posting of the question to get on his soapbox about the viability of comic books as an investment vehicle! I mean c'mon, what fun is that!?!? tongue.gif

 

It's deja vu man...all over again...

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"These are people willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, nothing more, nothing less."
That applies to nobody on clobber's list except Parrino.

 

Brulato, toychef, Josh, and Bruce are collectors aside from being dealers, they were buying long before CGC, and they still buy both slabbed and unslabbed books. How do they differ so greatly from Geppi? Geppi has probably been doing it so long now that there's very little left he even needs or wants anymore.

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"you should only invest as much as you are willing to lose is a good phrase to go by. "

 

I completely agree - you should only be willing to invest what you would be willing to lose - which is why I only spend my discretionary income (ie the money that I would otherwise be spending on alcohol, movies, cds, dvds, etc) on comics.

 

If someone were looking to invest $5K into any investment vehicle / option of their choosing, I would not recommend comic books. I think that the peak has been hit for most if not all books and now we will be entering into a decline / stabalization period. Does that mean that I like my comics any less? No, but it does mean that if someone came up to me and told me they had $5K to invest and could invest anywhere with it, comics wouldn't come to mind.

 

DAM

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No offense taken (and thanks for the effort)... I'm certainly no "Big Wheel", especially in comparison to those mentioned. I know my place in this hobby is not among the top echelon by any stretch. That said, I'm pleased with where I am today after re-enterng the hobby only 3 years ago after a long lay-off and sale of my original collection. Simply put, I just have a fanatical drive to acquire high grade examples of books that have meaning to me. I do this primarily because of my passion for the books and also because I enjoy the investment aspect too and feel that my desire (affliction) for the best examples works well with the somewhat proven "buy the best" strategy I've always heard. It may not turn out as I hope on the investment end, but I'll still have all those HG beauties should my hunches be off. I also always have the option to downgrade to a lower copy and cash in should I be uncomfortable. The effort, networking and the buying/selling I'm involved in to raise funds to buy my "keeper" books just makes me appear more visible at times.

 

Bru (the small fish) grin.gif

 

btw... Comgeek is not a collector at all. He does not read books either. He's a businessman, and a damn good one (and a damn fair one as well). When he buys... its often for a couple reclusive collectors that don't Ebay... or for potential resale. I'm fairly certain he does not maintains a collection at all.

 

btw2... The others mentioned are certainly "Big Wheels" (buyers/collectors and sellers). What you don't see (on Ebay, etc.) is quite staggering at times and if you're not privy to these "going ons"... you would not have a clue truthfully. I can tell you that a whole lot of sizable transactions are done privately and few are aware of what is happening behind the scenes. Knowing this, I can tell you your opinion on a few of them minimizes their true involvement and stature in the hobby/business. I have no contact with JP to offer an opinion there.

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Hi Titan,

 

Sorry your post got derailed a bit.

 

Another idea is to take out small ads in local papers to buy collections. I did this and purchased around 60+ long boxes worth. I sold maybe 15 boxes out of that... plus I CGC'd 35 or so gems and I more than doubled the money spent and STILL have about 45 long boxes of books that were essentially free. You have to research how to go about doing this and develop some skill and the ability to walk away from those that have unrealistic expectations. You'll find though that many can't even find a comic shop that buys books and are HAPPY to get them out of their houses at 10-15¢ a book or less. (at least the wives are)

 

I stopped doing this for about a year as all my cash was tied up in buying... but recently the wife closed a retirement fund and handed over the cash unexpectedly and told me to make it grow... so I'm getting back into buying raw collections again. I just got a call from this guy with a huge SA collection in midgrade. Nice early runs of early Marvel and DC's loaded with keys. I don't want any of this stuff personally (to keep, I'd surely read it given time) but selling this stuff will likely put a nice wad in my pocket to buy more stuff I want. So any investment is a gain at that point... working with "free money"... at least that's one rationalization.

 

 

 

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Some thoughts to consider on this if I understood the remark as intended...

 

"These are people willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, nothing more, nothing less."

 

Firstly, you presume to know more than you do again with the definitive.. "nothing more, nothing less" part of the statement. IMHO, you should have considered saying... "Its obvious that these people are willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, although I may not see the whole picture or understand some of their reasonings/methods for doing so". It might make better sense to you in some cases if you did know more. Sometimes V, everything is not as simple as you like to think, and your conclusions prematurely indicate. You can't be right all the time.

 

No disrespect intended, but you can't possibly know the "more or less" in my case because you simply are not involved closely enough. I am willing to pay huge bucks for certain ultra high-grade CGC material >TO A POINT<. I also make these decisions based on other factors you are unaware of. One consideration I use is if several collectors I know are willing to pay what I did, or more... that is usually an indication that I'm not overpaying in terms of current market demand. I know I can turn it over with no loss and probably minimal gain (at worst) IF I wanted too... but obviously I don't very often until I upgrade or buy a dupe to compare the first one to. I also look to conditionally sell my undercopy prior to buying in many cases... and the result of that process plays into my decision. If there is serious demand and offers for my undercopy and there is profit to be earned, that is just money off the book I'm considering buying in my view. I also look at sales data, trends, demand and my own hunches so I can buy what I want and not feel that I made unwise move at the same time. I certainly don't like to make "unwise" purchases from my vantage point and absolutely walk away from some books I'd love to have because buying in that instance does not make sense to me. I'm not an open wallet screaming to be emptied, there is some thought behind every purchase.

 

You also have to consider sometimes I trade or do cash and trades... but had less into the books I traded... all factors that can make a seemingly "overpriced" purchase lower than you think. It may still be more than what you think makes sense, but often its closer to a "no brainer" as I know if I wanted to I "could" flip it for an immediate profit. Even though I don't sell, that gives me comfort when I'm buying at higher dollar amounts. More than a few, including yourself I believe have mentioned that the success, from an investment POV largely depends upon the price you paid for the book. Often, what I "really" have into my "keepers" is not what it seems to be.

 

If I always wanted, let's say... a Marvel Premiere 15 in 9.8 because I love the book AND also believe I will do well with it regardless if I sell it someday. If I bought a 9.2 and profited $50 on it when I bought a 9.4... and profited $75 on it when I bought a 9.6... and then profited again $100 when I bought a 9.8. Then factor in that I also bought 4 other 9.2/9.4s when I happened upon an opportunity and sold those for $200 profit total.... isn't my price paid on the 9.8 a lot less in one way of thinking?... especially if I upgraded at a pace that was ahead of the market decline on the lower graded copies (even if there was some luck involved and I did not see all of that coming)? My thinking is... even IF my hunches/beliefs are proven wrong and I took a loss on a 9.8 in a disastrous crash scenario... I really had a buffer (sometimes significant) off the price "that seems to have been paid".

 

Anyway, just some insight into my methodology and rationalizations that allow me to feel comfortable for the most part with my HG purchases. I'm sure there is often more to consider in other's buying habits as well... you just can't see it all. You may still completely disagree with my logic, which I suspect you will, but again... I feel maybe some things are a bit more complex than your conclusions on them indicate.

 

hope this was something "more or less" to consider?

 

 

 

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Bruce, I do see where you are coming from in this statement with the MF 15:

 

If I always wanted, let's say... a Marvel Premiere 15 in 9.8 because I love the book AND also believe I will do well with it regardless if I sell it someday. If I bought a 9.2 and profited $50 on it when I bought a 9.4... and profited $75 on it when I bought a 9.6... and then profited again $100 when I bought a 9.8. Then factor in that I also bought 4 other 9.2/9.4s when I happened upon an opportunity and sold those for $200 profit total.... isn't my price paid on the 9.8 a lot less in one way of thinking?... especially if I upgraded at a pace that was ahead of the market decline on the lower graded copies (even if there was some luck involved and I did not see all of that coming)? My thinking is... even IF my hunches/beliefs are proven wrong and I took a loss on a 9.8 in a disastrous crash scenario... I really had a buffer (sometimes significant) off the price "that seems to have been paid".

 

But I would look at it that you made money off of some smaller investments (ie the lower grades that you sold) but are long a bigger investment (eg the uber-HG copy).

 

So if you do take a loss on a 9.8 in a disastrous crash scenario you don't really have a buffer in that case - just some profit from other ventures that you used to buy the book to make it be less "new" money. A loss is a loss and a gain is a gain grin.gif

 

DAM

 

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I've referred to this thinking as the rationalization that allows me to make these decisions. I know others won't see it similarly, that's understandable... but it works for me and makes sense to me. Had I held those undercopies instead... I would have lost on them. Instead, I turned them into "discounts" on the copy I really wanted. Even if you use your thinking... you can still cost average on the specific book and arrive at the same place. Luckily, I have not lost very often in general to date (knock on CI's head... just a ribbin'), and less so on very HG with exception of a few more modern 9.8's (and 9.6 BM's wink.gif)... so I have not "had to" use that line of thinking/rationalization to ease my losses much. If it does happen, I'll fall back on it, wacky as it may seem... and feel much better than I would have had I went straight for a high priced 9.8 and took a kick in the nads. grin.gif

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mad.gifconfused.gif .................................................................................................................................................

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Luckily, I have not lost very often in general to date (knock on CI's head... just a ribbin'), and less so on very HG with exception of a few more modern 9.8's (and 9.6 BM's )

 

If I may be a big egotistical, it is kinda cool to be one of (if not "the") major buyer in terms of modern Batman books. And once they enter my vault they will never come out! I am almost at the full run to 200 onwards too - just missing 8 all pre-236!! If anyone has a copy of 208, 209, 217, 227, 228, 235 in raw 7.0 and above or a 232 or a 234 reader please let me know.

 

The only thing I would caution about is chasing a bad investment with good money. Tons of people bought more worldcom when it had dropped from $50 to $15 thinking that it would then "only" have to clear $32.50 to be profitable. Those people lost the original $50 and the "good" money of $15. Instead of worldcom please insert any dot com stock, k-mart, adelphia, etc.

 

DAM

 

 

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I understand the point... again, just the rationalization that makes this all work for me.

I may be wrong as I've never experienced a major crash besides the current stock market losses I endured (like most) over the past 2 years... but I feel IF I sense a significant weakening, there is time to trade down... maybe we'll see that theory tested, or not.

 

At the same time I'm not too worried about it either... maybe just on a few books. I did trade down on my Defenders 1 9.8 for a 9.6 and cash which reduced my price paid on the 9.6 to below what a 9.4 sells for... plus the 9.6 looked better than the angle offset 9.8 I thought I could live with, but couldn't. It took one phone call to trade down.

 

I don't know about you, but a ways back... I felt it in my gut that the stock market was heading for the gutter. I called up my one agent and let him know that I wanted to switch the funds to something guaranteed and wait this all out. He talked me out of it with "long term goals" this and "people who play it like that always lose".. and I listened and lost a ton instead of following my gut. When and IF my gut ever tells me thing are looking bad in HG CGC books... I'll listen to it .. damn stock broker mad.gif

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I may be wrong as I've never experienced a major crash besides the current stock market losses I endured (like most) over the past 2 years... but I feel IF I sense a significant weakening, there is time to trade down...

 

The problem I see with this is (a) it's tough to tell the difference between a dip and a major correction until after the fact and (b) sometimes the downswing can occur too quickly for you to do anything about it.

 

A good example can be found in the Miller Daredevil books. For a while, every 9.8 and many 9.6s were selling for hundreds of dollars...then prices started softening, and as we approached the movie release date, everybody scrambled to sell while the getting was still good. What we got was as much as a 90+% correction in some prices in no time flat. There was one 2 week period in January or February where some prices were literally chopped in half. I know this because I was trying to sell off some dupes during this period and the market would not let me out at any decent price - in fact, I'm still holding some of these books (yes, the market got the better of me in this instance).

 

With so many books trading hands through on-line transactions, the CGC market has become virtually a real-time, 24-hour marketplace. Price trends can turn on a dime and liquidity can evaporate just when you need it the most. Just something to consider.

 

Gene

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