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CGC VS. OVERSTREET

46 posts in this topic

the point is whatever grade the comic now is, should it be called RESTORED?

 

I thought I already said that but just to be clear...yes!

 

And any extra fact is a good one to know.

 

Oh - one more point - that is MY opinion. I think it is really a no-brainer that replacing or cleaning staples is a form of restoration but that is my brain.

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I would like someone to clarify why they think Overstreet would make that statement.

 

One POSSIBILITY is that "Overstreet" has been around for ages, having lived through the days when scotch tape was used even on new books to add that extra reinforcement to the staple area, when ads read "all books grade Good to near Mint", when restoration was accepted by a lot more people than it seems it is today and the main restorer names lent extra value to a restored book's "restored price" etc. It may be a throwback to the older days. It may be a carefully considered opinion. I suggest you DO call them, or wait for the right answer here!

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Here's the best answer I can give you as co-author - I think it is indeed one of those legacies of another time, but it just seemed to sit well enough with everyone when we assembled the new edition that it didn't raise any red flags or make anyone stop to think about removing the idea. As a completely objective observer of this whole grading thing - as I always said throughout the process of writing the book, I was coming at it with no preconceptions having never been into the whole grading aspect of collecting in my youth - I gathered that it wasn't a big issue with anyone. The book was assembled with the close advisement of dozens of individuals throughout the Overstreet Advisors network, including CGC folks, and well beyond to message boards that I was asking for advice, and no one ever said "that staple thing doesn't make any sense." So it must have seemed fine with everyone at the time.

 

Personally, I can see calling it a form of restoration if you want to take it that far - might be a stretch - but I hope at least this sheds some light on it smile.gif.

 

Arnold

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Personally, I can see calling it a form of restoration if you want to take it that far - might be a stretch

 

How is it a stretch? You have REMOVED a piece of the original book and REPLACED it with something better. To me, that is restoration.

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I think someone said it best in a different thread that before CGC professional restoration used to be considered a form of achival restoration. In other art mediums (media?), pro restoration actually increases the value of the piece. Since the advent of CGC, getting called "restored" is like someone saying something dirty about your mother.

 

I generally think that Overstreet takes the artistic side of collectible comics while CGC is more on the commercial side of collectible comics.

 

Also, on the CGC side, they are not really downgrading a book for restotation, they are giving it a different colored label with a clear description of what has been restored. It is the marketplace that deems this less valuable or desireable than a universal label.

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Does it even matter what Overstreet's stand on staple manipulation may be?? Overstreet has DEFINED grades with qualifiers explained fairly well? CGC does not have a published guideline. Just the fact that one book with a married cover, where staples obviously HAD to be manipulated to affix the printer's unused cover is considered a green label, and another where a staple is cleaned is a purple label displays unfathomable discrepencies in consistancy. Then there's the paradox of a book manufactured with ONE staple receiving EITHER a green or blue label seemingly on whimsy.

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Bah... Totally untrue. I've taken apart golden age books completely, laid them out flat and pressed out the spine roll, and put them back together again. Later they were submitted to CGC and received Blue unrestored labels.

 

Did NOT replace the staples though....

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First of all, thanks to arnoldt for the response. My interest in the subject resulted from submitting a comic from my collection, having it receive a Qualified,

then resubmitting it based on the information I found in the book. I was extremely careful, and took an extended period of time ( to limit additional damage), and replaced the staples. I have a clear conscience about this, and it is not just based on the fact that I feel it is slightly anal to think that there is ANYTHING different about this comic now and when it had its original staples. I resubmitted and got a blue label and now someone has a comic they will be very happy with. It might be a weak analogy, but you know, a woman is only a virgin once, but that doesn't mean the sex is any worse later. I know the people who disagree will probably never change their mind on the subject, but it does deserve thought. 893blahblah.gif

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In other art mediums (media?), pro restoration actually increases the value of the piece. Since the advent of CGC, getting called "restored" is like someone saying something dirty about your mother.

 

I continue to see statements like this, and am beginning to think that CGC's method of overgrading Restored books has some people confused.

 

Here's the deal:

 

A CGC Apparent NM - Restored IS NOT A NM COMIC! It should not be compared to Universal CGC comics of the same grade, as it's pre-restoration grade has been hidden and is not disclosed by CGC.

 

So basically, a VG comic with resto to VF/NM usually fetches more than the VG price, so restoration does increase the overal value and saleability of the comic, compared to its ORIGINAL GRADE.

 

Now some bozo who took a magic marker to get rid of spine stresses is not true restoration IMHO, and was a mistake that CGC rightfully highlights. Pro resto of lower grade books does increase values, while with magic markers pay for their stupidity.

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I have a clear conscience about this, and it is not just based on the fact that I feel it is slightly anal to think that there is ANYTHING different about this comic now and when it had its original staples.

 

Actually there is nothing even slightly anal about thinking that. What IS very anal (and this is not directed at you, Bubbles) is the way restoration is perceived by so many people.

 

Replaced staples do not trouble me at all, nor does cleaning and pressing or even spine roll removal. They all ARE aspects of restoration, but when people hear the word restoration they cannot get passed "Purple Label" to even consider what they are reacting to. An otherwise VF book with one small spot of color touch is looked upon by many in the same light as a book that has pieces added, spine reinforced etc etc. It is Purple Label Drek!!!

 

That is why I am so much in favor of a single color label but with the same notations. If the "purple label" stigma were removed, people would actually be forced to try to read and understand what the label itself is actually saying, rather than blanketly reacting to a color that automatically segregates a book from 20 feet away. Same for the other colors as well.

 

I see people always saying "buy the book, not the slab." Same can be said about buying a label color as well.

 

(edited to replace an acceptable but apparantly censored word (starts with CR and ends with P and is four letters long) with Drek.)

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That is why I am so much in favor of a single color label but with the same notations. If the "purple label" stigma were removed, people would actually be forced to try to read and understand what the label itself is actually saying, rather than blanketly reacting to a color that automatically segregates a book from 20 feet away. Same for the other colors as well.

 

I see people always saying "buy the book, not the slab." Same can be said about buying a label color as well.

 

I argued this exact point about 9 months ago, but then something occurred to me. Some sellers will have blurry or cropped scans of their CGC books that will hide or obscure the word "restored" on the label. I totally agree with you--the purple label reinforces the discrimination against restored books which exists in the industry--but it also makes it a little bit harder for sellers to try to pass off a restored book as unrestored and a little bit harder for a buyer to not realize a book is restored. Since restoration detection is one of the core added values of the slab, highlighting this information isn't entirely a bad thing.

 

But then there's still the restored comic stigma the industry has to get over. How can this be achieved? That coin guy who was posting in this forum a few weeks ago said the same stigma was attached to restored coins in the 80s when they first started slabbing those, but that eventually restored coins strengthened in value once collectors got used to all the issues surrounding restoration. What's it going to take for comics to get to the same balanced point of view? Education and time are the main catalysts that come to mind.

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Some sellers will have blurry or cropped scans of their CGC books that will hide or obscure the word "restored" on the label.

 

I understand what you're saying here. But I don't think it is right that the whole category has to bow to a relatively few shady characters. People who buy books with cropped or blurry etc. scans get - pardon my harshness - what they deserve.

 

Now before I get jumped on for this, consider going into a comic book store to buy a book. But the actual book is in a translucent package and all you can make out is a general image but no detail. But there is a nice card with a description of the book attached to the package. And if you asked to see the book you were told that was the most translucent package they had. Sound familiar? grin.gif

 

The internet has gotten away with a LOT of forgiveness over the years. There are always excuses on the internet. But in my opinion, if someone wants to sell comics on ebay all they need to invest in is a cheap (well below $100) scanner and spend maybe 30 minutes or an hour learning the basics. Considering the prices being asked for some books with the most horrid images attached, that should be the absolute minimum to be expected.

 

Some may argue that the internet is not an "in person" thing so the comic book store analogy has little merit. But that is an "internet excuse" that is blurring the real situation. And the real situation is that, in a store or in the net, someone is paying real money for a real comic book. I cannot see how the venue changes that.

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When I was at the Megacon S. Borock had a chance to speak with me for a few minutes and I asked him about restored books, the purple label and the price effect. he said the purple label; was never intended to kill the book price the way it has. He said some of the best deals around are on those slightly restored books with slight color touch or glue on spine or cleaned. These books are often vf/nm books before the work is done. I have around 5 or to 10 books ranging from 8.5 to 9.6 with slight work that is invisible to me - most have slight color touch but a few have glue on spine. I probably paid less that a fiftth of the price an unrestored book would bring - but I feel very good about the purchases as the books look great and i feel like I got a deal on them. Even on heavily restored books I don't think there is a big problem - as long as you know what you are buying and are happy with the appearance like the guy in the other thread with the AF 15. Personally I avoid the moderate to heavily restored books with stuff like pieces added, reglossing, trimming - but that is just my preference. And I think just over 10 years ago restoration work was raging and well accepted - but that line of thinking has gone out of fashion.

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He said some of the best deals around are on those slightly restored books with slight color touch or glue on spine or cleaned.

 

I heartily agree with that. I only wish more precode horror was like that. I'd scoop them up asap.

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What Steve is really saying is that books that are high-grade anyway, but have a dot of color touch on them, are good values right now. I tend to agree, as a NM copy before color touch is still a NM copy.

 

Those Frankenstein books (pieces added, reinforcement, serious coloring, etc.) are a far different story, and I really wish CGC would give an estimated pre-resto grade. That way sellers with "Apparent NM - Extensive Resto" wouldn't complain that their books don't get anywhere near NM Guide.

 

lol! That's probably a VG book to start with!! 893frustrated.gif

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He said some of the best deals around are on those slightly restored books with slight color touch or glue on spine or cleaned. These books are often vf/nm books before the work is done.

 

I'll start off by saying that minor resto isn't a problem with me. But I'd like to shoot any stupid SOB that would restore a book that's already VF/NM. That's just the height of stupidity and greed. 893frustrated.gif

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A thought for my paranoid compatriots. Can you imagine the business CGC will do in a few years when they decide to eliminate the Qualified and Restoration labels? My God, how many new submissions will THAT entail? It would eliminate a lot of re-submissions too though, wouldn't it? Hope that doesn't stop them. There is NOTHING wrong with one label that lists everything that is not natural with a comic book. Thanks for a great Read guys!!! 893blahblah.gif

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