Important information about storing comic books in fire proof/resistant safes

[selegue]

I've been PMing back and forth with Professor Jack (jselegue here on the boards) about this rusty staple thing this morning...

 

I'm sure he'll jump in here with more info and/or any corrections if I got something wrong.

 

No problem -- an accurate summary.

Nothing missing aside from failing to reference "Professor Jack" from Strange Tales 132.

 

 

Not just everyone has a Marvel villain named after them.

 

Jack

[FFB]

Bruce,

 

I've been PMing back and forth with Professor Jack (jselegue here on the boards) about this rusty staple thing this morning, and he's got a couple links to metal analysis firms that you may wish to utilize if you really want to dig into this:

 

http://www.matcoinc.com/?type=cc&id=345

 

http://www.galbraith.com/services.htm#Elemental

 

With his permission, this is what he had to say in response to my inquiry about testing these staples and whether anything had been done to them (or even if they had been replaced):

 

"The surface of the staples is long gone, so I can't think of any way to test for cleaning or abrading. If there's any metal left in there, it would be possible to get an exact elemental analysis to see whether they had been replaced. That would require having a comparison analysis of authentic staples from another book that came from the same press at the same time. There are people who know printing history well enough to know which press the book came off, and a beater copy of a book with the same staples shouldn't be hard to find.

 

The analysis would be fairly expensive, but there are commercial labs that do metal analysis routinely."

 

I'm sure he'll jump in here with more info and/or any corrections if I got something wrong.

 

Alan

 

This seems like throwing good money after bad. This isn't the first time that this rust problem has affected books in a fire safe. Is there some reason to believe that the original staples wouldn't have rusted like these did? If there is, I must have missed it.

 

Also, is there any evidence that the staples were replaced? I have a hard time imagining how anyone could replace staples on a bronze age book and get the old ones out and the new ones in cleanly enough that the book would still grade 9.8.

[selegue]

...

 

With his permission, this is what he had to say in response to my inquiry about testing these staples and whether anything had been done to them (or even if they had been replaced):

 

"The surface of the staples is long gone, so I can't think of any way to test for cleaning or abrading. If there's any metal left in there, it would be possible to get an exact elemental analysis to see whether they had been replaced. That would require having a comparison analysis of authentic staples from another book that came from the same press at the same time. There are people who know printing history well enough to know which press the book came off, and a beater copy of a book with the same staples shouldn't be hard to find.

 

The analysis would be fairly expensive, but there are commercial labs that do metal analysis routinely."

 

...

 

This seems like throwing good money after bad.

 

Would I pay it? Not unless there were a really good reason like some kind of forensic investigation.

 

 

This isn't the first time that this rust problem has affected books in a fire safe. Is there some reason to believe that the original staples wouldn't have rusted like these did? If there is, I must have missed it.

 

 

I raised the question of whether the wire used for saddle-stitching at that time was bare or had some kind of coating. Does anyone know? I have no idea! I was purely speculating, and that's one reason why I was doing some of it off-list.

 

Also, is there any evidence that the staples were replaced?

 

None presented. I was just throwing out hypotheses about why one book's staples would be so much more affected than another's. It could be something as simple as whether the book was leaning against the safe's wall. Is there any information about the less affected books?

 

I have a hard time imagining how anyone could replace staples on a bronze age book and get the old ones out and the new ones in cleanly enough that the book would still grade 9.8.

 

Really? I've fiddled with staples on my own BTH books (reattaching centerfolds and that sort of thing). It doesn't seem all that challenging with a steady hand and a few tools, but I suppose that even a small slip would show up on a 9.8.

 

Jack

[PedigreeMan]

This isn't the first time that this rust problem has affected books in a fire safe.

 

Yeah, but to this extent? Quoth Prof. Jack again: "It looks like it spent time in seawater!" There's something fishy here ....

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks Alan and "Professor"... I'll do my best to get to the truth and distribute the information as much as possible

[burntboy]

 

the more i think about this the weirder it becomes. a pristine 9.8 book sitting in a sealed Barex inner-well, inside a hard plastic slab in an otherwise innocuous fire retardent document safe, with Silca Gel packs to person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point moisture, has the metal staples dissolve in only a few years?!?!?!?

 

this has got to be some insidious chemical reaction from the fire "proofing" material..........

 

i think the answer has to lie with Sentry..........this just can't be an isolated instance. think of all the documents that are in safes like this with staples, paper clips, metal hanging folders, etc.........

 

if this had been Doug's FF # 1 - 9.6 (for example), the "loss" would be substantial and there would be hell to pay................

 

you sure you weren't storing some poorly contained hydrochloric acid in there??

[Silver Surfer]

Maybe the staples were treated somehow prior to encapsulating the book and then after it was in the safe for a while it caused an acceleration of the process? Find it hard to believe that the rust would develop so drastically by just sitting in a safe.

[Mr. Zipper]

Maybe the staples were treated somehow prior to encapsulating the book and then after it was in the safe for a while it caused an acceleration of the process? Find it hard to believe that the rust would develop so drastically by just sitting in a safe.

 

I have to think that something other than simple humidity is factoring into the equation. You could leave a CGC slab in a humid garden shed for a few years and I highly doubt the staples would look that bad.

 

[burntboy]

Maybe the staples were treated somehow prior to encapsulating the book and then after it was in the safe for a while it caused an acceleration of the process? Find it hard to believe that the rust would develop so drastically by just sitting in a safe.

 

logical except for the fact that who is gonna "treat" staples on a Hulk #182??

 

but one must never rule out any possibilities.............the packing tape went missing this am, when i spoke to the bride she assured me that it had been on the office floor right next to the Prom Dress box being shipped back. after explaining that it was no where to be found in the room and that it definitely wasn't there when i first entered the room, she correctly surmised that perhaps the dog had picked it up and to check under the dining room table where he stashes all his ill-gotten gains. Voila!!!

[divad]

if this had been Doug's FF # 1 - 9.6 (for example), the "loss" would be substantial and there would be hell to pay................

 

Yeah, he would have had to find a lawyer . . .

 

 

 

 

[skinny_white_boy]

[LadyWonder-migration]

I have a question. I live in Puerto Rico and mostly all the year the weather is fine, you know warm and a little cold by winter. But where I live, mountain zone, is very humid. What is the best way to storage comics in this kind of humid atmosphere?

[CW]

A dehumidifier can be purchased for around $150-$200 USD. I use one in my comic room and it keeps the room consistently between 45%-50% Relative Humidity even though it can get well into the 70% Humidity range outside. I empty the collection tank every week. It is pretty simple. In the winter I used to have condensation on all the windows in my comic room now they are dry 365 days a year. I use a 1300lb fire resistant gun safe and the humidifier keeps that at the humidity of the rest of the room. A simple hygrometer keeps track of the safe's humidity for me.

Hope that helps.

[jmg3637]

It was a portable humidifier. one of the uses said for the inside of a safe. I dont remember all the details, but basically you pluged it in to prime it and it would then work to absorb a couple of ounces of water then it is empied out by plugging it in again. it was 15+5 shipping . seems like it would be well worth it for someone with a safe to try one of these out to see how quickly it fills with absorbed moisture and what the humidity inside would then be

[codfish]

Has anyone bothered to test the environment in these safes? Humidity could be an issue if the seal is not airtight but dessicator stones or silica packs should remove all moisture. I really do not think moisture is the culprit here necessarily.

 

Not owning one of these safes I cannot really comment too much but it seems strange to me the there would be insulation on the inner chamber when that would leave the outer shell exposed to the heat. So I assume that the inner chamber is free of insulation and the seems of the inner chaber would be sealed in such a way as to not allow outer gases into the inner chamber. It makes no sense to me that off gassing to the inner chamber is happening ... unless the design of these things is truly bad.

 

Another thing that I find odd is that only a few books were affected, not all, you would think that all books would show damage or the beginnning of it. Why would one book be more adversely affected than the rest? The only conclusion that I can think of, that isas long as no corrosive gases are entering the inner chamber, is that the one book that has significant rust must have had modified staples in some way. Why else would they rust out so thoroughly?

 

What I would be interested in is knowing who this one book was purchased from? That should be asked and the answer could lead to more avenues to be investigated. Frankly this humidity is a red herring.

 

(if you really wanted to know what moisture levels were like you could buy some Dririte dessicant stone that change colour when moisture is present. If it takes a month or more then the moisture levels are NOT a serious threat ... unless the staples are compromised in some way.)

[codfish]

No takers? What would people's opinions be if someone like Tom Brulato was the dealer who sold the book? Tom was fingered early as one of Ewert's cohorts then was somehow able to distance himself from the matter. To be honest how a book's staples could degrade that fast really is fishy to me and I am beginning to think that this safe issue is just a cover. I mean really there are ample means for testing for corrosive gases/vapours and several means by which to deal with them.

 

It is funny that the theorizing about the culprit in the safe is so vague if this is a known issue. I would have though this would have come to light long ago. That is not to say that off gassing didn't play a role but. like I said before, it is very strange that only one book was seriously affected.

 

People just seem too happy with the simplest route to an explanation.

[CW]

I want to say, before the conspiracy theories get out there. I will bet $20 right now that the rust is humidity and poor quality staples at the time of production maybe a chemical (maybe). Take some bronze age marvel staples and put them in the safe in question for 3 years, see what happens. Seems like it could be done scientifically with a selection from a cross section of books, heck go ahead and scrub a set to see if the cleaned idea has any weight. I guess it is too much to ask to try the obvious instead of speculating on and on. Sorry if I sound short but the constant speculation into these drawn out, convoluted, stories of dark back rooms deals and cover ups is painful.

-CW

[BronzeBruce13]

Codfish...

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think its best if we first focus on discovering more information/facts regarding storage environments and the possibilities of corrosive elements having an impact on the staples before making unsubstantiated theories.

 

I've done as much research as I can thus far and have received input and assistance from others as well. You may be able to help as well judging from your comments. I may want to try some of your suggestions... feel free to PM me.

 

At this juncture, I think its far more important to put our efforts towards alerting other collectors about this threat to their comics. I've contacted many collectors so far and quite a few had their books in similar storage environments and thankfully no one else has experienced any damage (yet). Either way, they now know to avoid the fire-proof safes and realize that they have to be more aware of proper desiccant use and maintenance.

 

As for some of your questions:

 

The Hulk 182 had been in the safe the longest. Around 3 years. The safe had been opened semi-regularly in that 3 year period to insert new books or remove others. As of the last 2 openings (the first in which I showed the books to both Brian Ketterer & Dave Matteini… and the 2nd, to Brian Ketterer solo) none of the books had any sign of rust/corrosion. Brian in particular, was looking very closely the 2nd time as we were debating the given grades of the books. I estimate that took place around 6-8 months ago. I likely opened the safe a few other times briefly since, but not for an extended period, nor did I examine the books closely since.

 

After examining all books in the safe under a magnifying lens, I discovered 3 other books had signs of the very beginnings of staple decay (and were hopefully caught in time). All were in the safe similar lengths of time. Had they been left inside longer, I have no doubt they would look like the Hulk 182 as well in time. So its not really just 1 book affected.

 

Since you apparently checked the serial on the Hulk 182 and posted his name already, 2 of the 4 books were purchased from Tom Brulato directly privately. I'm not sure about the 3rd & 4th. I originally thought 3 out of 4 were purchased from him, but a further look into my records revealed I was mistaken about one of them. I don't know either of the histories of those 2 books yet, but plan to ask CGC who slabbed them. As stated, I only asked Tom if the 182 had any work done on it "pre-slabbing" because I did not realize at that point that other books in my safe were affected too. Either way, he does not recall, nor keep records of books he presses, so we have no information that could offer any further insight. Since 2 of the 4 books' sumbitters are not as of yet identified (or linked to Tom) I still don't think there is enough cause to abandon the path I'm on. If there is some connection as you suggest, I'm sure that would reveal itself in time and does not need to be the focus right now.

 

We'll hear from CGC this coming week what they think when they have a chance to examine the books,

[sellinMyYouth]

In the families $$$ Safe for the biz.. last summer..

 

Our Silicone gel thingy... CRYSTALIZED all over the outside of the bag and we have a wad of cash covered in the crud... Ma's Jewelery was affected and it Etched into some of the stones that were Semi-precious.... Bad enough to file an insurance claim on the insured pieces

 

Just an off topic side note.... Keep an eye on the silica as well...We now open the safe more often to monitor. All Jewelry is in tuperware per Jewelers instructions.

[LVCE-migration]

How about Safe Deposit boxes? Since they are in Bank vaults that look like they might be airtight, can a similar thing happen to books stored in safe deposit boxes?