CGC's grading helping you ?

[Lantern]

This statement was posted in the OS Grading Guide Contradictions thread...

 

"Spend over $10Gs on grading and you'll notice a whole new world of grade findings on your submissions...."

 

I was giving this some thought, and I came to a conclusion that I would like to share. I have submitted over two dozen of my own comics to CGC in the last year. As I got submissions back I would compare the grade I expected to receive with the grade CGC had given the book. If I ever questioned the grade CGC gave a book I would call for graders notes and they would usually clarify any misunderstanding I had about the grade. The more I submitted books the better the grades on my submissions would get, but I do not think that this has anything to do with paying my fees or dues. I think that getting books CGC graded has helped me pay better attention to things like corner bumps, edge wear, faint finger prints, and even page quality. Of course, the more submissions I get back the more my skill and experience at grading has increased. Thus, the better I can pre-grade my own books before sending them in. This entire thought process may seem elementary to some, but I never realized how many tiny flaws I was overlooking until someone else pointed them out to me.

 

My questions to the forum members are: Does anyone else use this technique to improve their own grading skills? If so, how much improvement (if any) have you seen in your grading skills? Does anyone track their grading accuracy, if so how accurate are your grades compared to CGC's?

 

Thanks in advance to anyone responding.

[aardvark88]

NOT at all. Have personally seen over 160 slabbed comics from 1950s to modern. Learned absolutely nothing from cgc except that their grading is inconsistent between publishers of the same year or worse between decades. Some looser gifts, some overly tight, some utter nonsense.

[murph0]

With the exception of miscuts and off-centered books. I haven't had any problem with their grading. I only have 145 or so CGC'd books, and the most one of them is off IMO is .4 (it's a 9.4, but I think it's a 9.0)

I don't use those books as reference but I am pretty close to their standards for VF/NM-NM+. I've always looked for nice looking books and not simply bought the label, which is what a few people on here have always said..and it should be said again.

 

Brian

[sfilosa]

On the books I have had graded by CGC, I have in general undergraded my Golden Age books and been right on (or one notch overgraded) on my Silver Age books.

I have never submitted any Bronze or newer books so I have no point of reference.

 

Lessons to learn are:

 

1) Manufacturing defects DO NOT affect the grade as much as normal wear and tear.

 

2) The back cover (especially dirt on the back cover) does not affect the grade as much as one (meaning myself) would expect.

 

3) Golden Age books will, in general, get what I would call bonus points for having a "fresh" quality to them. Great cover gloss and ink reflectivity will weigh more into the grade of a Golden Age book than a Silver or newer book.

 

This lead to the belief that CGC doesn't necessarily start with the concept that a book is Mint and then start subtracting points.If they did this, all books (regardless of age) would have to grade the same with the exact same defects. This is not the case in my opinion. It is also why (and CGC didn't start this trend) that pedigree books (which usually have great colors and gloss) always seem to grade slighltly higher than the sum of their defects.

 

4) I believe, once CGC has seen numerous copies of the same book, that they do grade stricter (this makes sense with the Golden Age issue). Logic would suggest that if you graded an X-Men GS #1 last week and called it a NM, then graded another copy today that appears to have one of two more flaws, that you automatically feel the need to grade it no higher than NM-. Therefore, they have a frame of reference with the book.

 

As a side note, I feel that CGC has been a great addition to the hobby. That being said, CGC is a "Tool", not the "Truth" regarding a comic books grade.

 

Hope some of this helps.

[Lantern]

With the exception of miscuts and off-centered books. I haven't had any problem with their grading.

 

I would agree 100% with this comment. In fact one of the first books that I ever sent in was a Nick Fury #1 that came back a 9.0. Believe it or not, I expected it to come back lower than that. Why? Because the cover is wrapped so it looks like it was a .02 cent book instead of a .12 cent book. To me that was the biggest and most obvious defect on the book. They apparently did not think it affected the grade much at all.

 

 

[Lantern]

Manufacturing defects DO NOT affect the grade as much

Much like the post I made in reply to murph, I agree with this observation. For my personal collection I do not like mis-cut, mis-wrapped, or off center books. When it comes to selling, if the only discernable flaw on the book is one of this type then I will have it slabbed and let CGC name the grade. This is especially true if the trend for most average collectors to buy labels and not books stays in effect.

 

The back cover does not affect the grade as much as one would expect

Again, I would have to agree with this observation. CGC does seem to put a lot of focus on the front of the book. Then again, I guess the focus for a lot of collectors is on the part as well.

 

Golden Age books

This was one of the reasons that I started this thread. I had one GA book graded and it came back lower than I expected. Thus, your comments about reflectivity and cover gloss will give me something to start with if or when I ever do have more graded.

 

CGC is a "Tool", not the "Truth" regarding a comic book grade

Perhaps this cuts to the point that I was trying to make with my original post. I was using CGC as a tool to better my own skills when purchasing books.

 

Thanks for all of your comments, they were very helpful.

[Crackandpresstoan11]

"NOT at all. Have personally seen over 160 slabbed comics from 1950s to modern. Learned absolutely nothing from cgc except that their grading is inconsistent between publishers of the same year or worse between decades. Some looser gifts, some overly tight, some utter nonsense."

 

Do you really want an eye opener? Try cracking 20 slabs on S.A. books between 9.0 -9.4 and compare. I did this last week and I feel even worse about trusting CGC's grading. You honestly can't even see a lot of the defects through the cloudy slabs... and their inconsistency of page quality is laughable. I will buy as many cream to off white books @ a discount as I can..... almost zero diff between offwhite/ white and cream/ offwhite ( at least on the books I cracked ). I had a book with white pages that was worse than an off white book. Very very loose grading on a few 9.0 early Strange Tales books I cracked, and very strict on D.C's.

[aardvark88]

Tom,

That is what I have found also. VERY tight grading on silver DCs compared to same year silver Marvels & the 60s DC was glossier & whiter. Sometimes, I think they grade bronze Marvels AFTER they have been slabbed. Spine flaws more hidden.

[Lantern]

I will buy as many cream to off white books @ a discount as I can..... almost zero diff between offwhite/ white and cream/ offwhite

Positive or negative, I will take any knowledge that anyone has gained from their experience with slabbed books. Especially when it is in relation to having broken open several slabbed books in one sitting with the intent to compare them. I have read several threads discussing page quality, usually they are regarding off white page books being more structurally sound than white paged books, but what you have stated is equally as informative. The less informed collector seems to gravitate toward the White Pages notation on the label. With what you have stated it does seem like there would be bargains in the Cream or Cream to Off White pages books. I will definately look at the page quality notation differently now....

 

Thanks for sharing your experience, it truly was an eye opener.

[murph0]

They may not be 100 percent accurate but at least they're within .2 or so.

Compare that to what people were pulling off eBay prior to CGC? "uhh yeah...this is a NM..bid it up!!" You get it and it's a best a VF-. Raw book grading has tighten up too due to CGC.

 

Brian

[Crackandpresstoan11]

....which could very easily be avoided if you ask for a full size scan of all raw books you are interested in. I was only burnt once buying raw on Ebay, because I did not request scans. Resto check is the only thing CGC is good for imo.

[murph0]

Interesting, I haven't been burnt on eBay very often. But scans never tell the complete story unless they're super high resolution, and the sellers who actually have those scans available are few and far between.

 

Brian

[hammer-migration]

Murph: "CGC may not be 100% but they're always within .2 or so"

 

 

Bravissimo, Jester, bravissimo!!!!

[COI]

....which could very easily be avoided if you ask for a full size scan of all raw books you are interested in. I was only burnt once buying raw on Ebay, because I did not request scans. Resto check is the only thing CGC is good for imo.

 

I agree. I have yet to be really burned buying raw on ebay.

 

I would love to buy only raw books, but there are 2 problems; One is obviously Restoration on earlier stuff. The other is that the type of books I buy most(1966-1973 Marvels) in true NM or higher(acording to my personal standards, not a label) but these books are being submitted in large numbers, and it is getting VERY hard to find true NM or higher raw books. And when you do find them, you usually have to pay multiples, so you might as well just buy a slabbed copy. So I just buy slabs, and inspect them as much as I can through the holder. If I think it was a "gift" grade, I sell it.

[PovertyRow]

And when you do find them, you usually have to pay multiples, so you might as well just buy a slabbed copy. So I just buy slabs, and inspect them as much as I can through the holder.

 

OK Andrew - a serious question, as I don't buy the rea hi-grade or know your collecting area well. What kinds of multiples for raw have you been seeing recently? Also, have you noticed a corresponding increase in the slabbed for similar books? Or are you seeing the slabbed being relatively stable while the raws go up?

[sfilosa]

Murph, I usually agree with you, but I wouldn't want to go as far as saying they are always in .2 of being correct/consistent.

 

THAT BEING SAID, besides the restoration check that CGC (which I hate because I got three purple label books back in three weeks), the other real value is that at least more dealers have to "TRY" to grade more accurately. Yes, they are going to be off somewhat, but I have read many post that said a dealer had been getting "looser" with their grading and is now tighting up. If a major dealer didn't sell any CGC books and only sold "overgraded" books, they wouldn't be in business very long. On the other hand before CGC they could be in business as they would undergrade when they bought and overgrade when they sold. Therefore they would double their normal profit. Then every once in a while, grade more accurately so that you would give them a second chance.

 

 

And I'm kidding about hating the restoration check. Actually despise is a better word.

[murph0]

I guess everyone has a different opinion, I certainly wouldn't call any of the books I have drastically overgraded.

 

Brian

[Lantern]

I certainly wouldn't call any of the books I have drastically overgraded

 

While you and I seem to be in the minority on this, I agree. I think that my personal grading has gotten better over time so the books that I have submitted tend to group closer to what I expect. Of course,, another way to look at it might be that I have conformed to CGC'c grading standard. Then again, if their grading is going to be the hobby standard then I can deal with that. I still have the odd ball non-CGC standard feelings toward centering, wrap and mis-cuts.

 

On the eBay issue, I have been burned a handful of times and have had minimal luck with sellers getting me better scans before the aucitons end. But, I still take the risk associated with eBay...its is part of the hobby.

 

 

[COI]

OK Andrew - a serious question, as I don't buy the rea hi-grade or know your collecting area well. What kinds of multiples for raw have you been seeing recently? Also, have you noticed a corresponding increase in the slabbed for similar books? Or are you seeing the slabbed being relatively stable while the raws go up?

 

This is a tough question to answer. My collecting is in 2 groups; 1963-1965 Marvel, and 1966-1973 Marvel and a few DC's. The reason I seperate them into groups is because for the first group, I look for strict 9.0+ copies, while in the second, I aim for strict 9.4+. The first batch are almost impossible to find in raw 9.0+, and you will not see legit auctions around for them,(or VERY rarely) nor will you find them strictly graded in dealer's inventories. Reason being obvious; a Dealer will send their copies in without hesitation. And for most of the books in that catagory, I simply believe they're not out there, and the supplies that were out there have been drying up since CGC came into the picture. Any dealer I ask will tell me that any 9.0+ books in this catagory are generally not offered raw, unless you're willing to pay the multiple. Now I'm sure that there are some legit raw auctions here or there, but it's nothing to rely on.

 

Now, this second group that I collect(1966-1973) is a little trickier because there are raw NM's floating around. Dealers who have these will sometimes have these listed in their inventories, but will charge an arm and a leg. And in this 7 year span, it is impossible to label them as tough, or easy, because it really varies from book to book. FF #48 is abundant in 9.4+, #49 is scarce in 9.4+, as is #50. Also, late 60's Marvels, particularly the #1's from 1968 are plentiful, but some Marvels from 1970-1973 are tough, particularly the 52 pagers and many of the "picture frame" books which tend to suffer from miscuts, miswraps, and generally bad centering, not to mention MANY dark covers. So raw availability of these books is all over the place, but 9.4+ raw is still extremely tough to find on the whole(at least for me). And unfortuently, I will not(and cannot) comb every single ebay listing and find the opportunities, as my Lcd moniter would make my head explode.

 

So, short answer is that I have seen quite an increase in raw demand and price, especially by those who have been disillusioned by CGC, and are not willing to pay the premium. While slabbed books still command the premium, I've seen the raw/slabbed gap closing a little, as the CGC's I look at have remained fairly stable.

 

For me, the bottom line is that I got into this high grade collecting around the time CGC came, and I personally have seen many slabbed NM's, but have not seen a fraction as many raw NM books, in person or online. This leaves me buying graded books. And for the money I'm dropping, I prefer graded books for the many safety issues it solves.

 

The long answer would be too long(yes, even longer than this) because it all depends on the book in question, and is too hard to sum up.

 

[PovertyRow]

This is a tough question to answer.

 

Thanks Andrew! Nice detail!