The "Review Committee" discussion
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170 posts in this topic

This is a continuation of the discussion that began

here...

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...part=5&vc=1

under a heading asking whether certain copies of Sensation Comics were the same.

 

During that discussion, Steve Borock and some of the members came up with the concept of a "review board". Some suggested that the review board only look at comics that happen to be discovered by a collector and which might have been sold previously with a pedigree (but whose pedigree has been lost). Others had a more expanded notion that would allow the board to examine photos of certain books to see whether they had been sold before -- but their previous numbers had been removed. This might include checking for cleaning, pressing, and (other) restoration-related alterations.

 

I suggested examining only high-grade books with a certain age (VF- and above from 1933-1945 and VF+ and above from 1946-1954). This suggestion was mainly due to the accurate assessment that there are a lot of high grade books from later years. Thus, it might be impossible to distinguish between two 9.6 copies of Incredible Hulk #181 -- for example.

 

We'd also have to retain (for group use) a photo bank consisting of such books.

 

Let's continue talking. What does everyone think? Steve, would the suggestion so far be tenable? How many photos/books might be involved?

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I think what you're suggesting is a full-time job.

 

Red has suggested the basic structure and function of the committee. Steve has responded with ideas that would make it work for CGC.

 

I think we should stay within the framework established by Brad & Steve and forge ahead. Small steps are better than no steps at all.

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I agree with that. Let's just open up a few lines of communication here and see what happens. Starting with pedigree reinstatement is a good start and a worthy cause imho.

 

Red

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The problem with the original suggestion is that nothing happens

unless someone already happens to encounter a "suspicious" book

at random.

 

Since eBay doesn't keep an archive longer than 30 days, right now

the way things would be set up, unless a book shows

up on Heritage twice, kiss it goodbye.

 

If the objective is to seriously discover "masked" pedigree books,

or to catch resubs, or any of the other things that have been mentioned

here, the group can't wait until someone happens to discover something.

 

No, I'm not talking about a full-time job. I'm talking about a group

of perhaps fifty (50) members, each with specific titles to review.

Upon their review, if they discover something odd, they would ask

the group at large for their collective opinion.

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After reflection..I think a little prudence would best serve us on this paticular issue. Starting small and seeing how this all unfolds is our best chance at success. As it has been brought to our attention in other threads recently .. we are not exactly batting 1000% in our attempts to implement change.

 

 

So I will say it again, lets elect those we feel will follow through and decide what is the best course of action to take in regards to slabbed books that have lost thier Pedigree moniker.

 

Let them come up with the guidelines, let them discuss with CGC how it will actually work. I for one am not worried about allowing those who's idea it was to run with it. Limit this council solely to restoring a lost pedigree notation and if it proves to actually be worth the time , who knows what else it will lead to.

 

 

I nominate

 

Redhook

Nearmint

Oldguy

Pedigreeman

 

as the core council (if they accept). They can act as my/our proxy if a 60% majority votes them in. I know for a fact there are no agendas here, just a honest effort to actually do what should, needs to be done.

 

So what say ye...?

 

Also, if you cast a vote chime in with a post stating that you voted. Or make a post stating who you would rather see on the list.

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I voted.... hi.gif

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Me too. I trust all of the 4 mentioned with this task. thumbsup2.gif

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Me too. I trust all of the 4 mentioned with this task. thumbsup2.gif

hi.gif...... DITTO!.....and yes I voted as well.

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I don't know about that "oldguy" dude . . . I don't trust anyone over 30 27_laughing.gif

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No, I'm not talking about a full-time job. I'm talking about a group

of perhaps fifty (50) members, each with specific titles to review.

Upon their review, if they discover something odd, they would ask

the group at large for their collective opinion.

 

The thing is, that is in essence what happens now. Anyone on the boards (far more than 50) who sees something funny out there, usally posts here about it. That wouldn't stop. I wouldn't want that to stop.

 

What this all means, as far as I can see.....is that instead of Steve wading through pages and pages of a thread to figure out if there is a legitimate gripe being presented.....he just waits until the "committee" formally presents CGC with a case, and then promises to examine it closer.

 

I don't see how this would put a clamp on the exposure of potential resubs here on the boards....we are going to do what we have always done. But....as a start....to simplify things in the case of a pedigree designation loss.....a couple of board members present the evidence to CGC, after examining it and concluding it's the real deal.....and then it's up to CGC to do something about it, and then (I assume ) issue a formal answer. I guess Steve prefers that to having to respond to dozens of posts and answering a lot of tangential questions.

 

In the case of resubs....I don't expect CGC to get involved at all. That area is one that I've come to realize buyers will have to watch out for themselves. Perhaps.....perhaps at some point in future....if CGC sees how well the pedigree-recovery process works....they'd get more involved in a wider range of agreements.

 

Understand this.....I have plenty of concerns about CGC's current business model. My involvement with the proposed pedigree committee should in no way be seen as an endorsement of other CGC business practices and policies. Replacement of lost pedigree designation does not involve a huge number of books, and in fact is a problem that only comes about as a result of the much much wider crack, enhance and resub game.

 

I've always tried to keep my criticism of CGC on a non-personal basis. Criticizing the CGC/Heritage business model is separate from personally criticizing the individuals who work for CGC, most of whom I've enjoyed meeting and conversing with. I don't think "getting personal" is the way to solve differences.

 

I think CGC knows that my allegiance is to the buyer. When Jason Ewert made a proposal to me to "pre-screen" books for him and check the databases for possible "smoking gun" books....in return for money or pedigree books....I refused. That was a pretty easy decision. Steve Borock's proposal is nothing like that one. That's why I will be happy to take part and see how it goes...a step at a time.

 

Red

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PS....and in the interest of full disclosure.... I would like to state.....that I am over 30.

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When Jason Ewert made a proposal to me to "pre-screen" books for him and check the databases for possible "smoking gun" books....in return for money or pedigree books....I refused.

 

Really? When did this happen? What kind of "smoking gun" was he asking you to find?

 

Jim

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You must remember this classic e-mail....received by me on August 27, 2005.

 

Hi Brad,

 

My name is Jason Ewert and I am a comic book dealer. An associate of mine gave me your name as the person to talk to for projects associated with graphics. My project may be a bit different than most as it has to do with comic books (of which the person mentioned you are a fan of the Green River collection - a great collection by the way!). Recently two books sent to the CGC for encapsulation under my name were found to have been potentially trimmed. That is no big deal. The big deal is that the books were encapsulated with a blue universal holder. What added to the situation is that both books originated from a Heritage Auction in February and were originally in a blue universal holder. The #3 has already arrived to the CGC and has been confirmed by Steve Borock that the book was trimmed and now lies in a holder with a purple restored label. Efforts are being made to retrieve the #10 and to have the book sent back to the CGC for a restoration check as well. If the #10 is found to have been trimmed too, obviously the book will be re-encapsulated with a purple label.

 

These occurrences have caused me a lot of grief because it becomes reasonable for people to assume I tried to sneak problem books past the CGC without their knowledge and then attempted to sell the books as unrestored. The source of both problem books has been traced and efforts are being made to see if other books sold to me and/or to others could have the same problem associated with them. I buy thousands of books a year from a number of sources. These sources include collectors and other dealers. This would also include a huge grouping of books I have stockpiled over the last 20 years. In the days before CGC, I always tried to buy what I thought was "high grade" or near mint and set is aside for a rainy day. Slowly over the last 3 years I have been pulling out these books to get slabbed. I have been fortunate to receive some nice grades and I have had my share of not so good grades, along with many books that ended up being restored without my knowledge.

 

This is where I could use your help. If I sent you scans of comic books I own or was considering purchasing, whose origins I am unaware of, or whose source of prior ownership are suspect, would you be able to check out if the books have been trimmed or not depending if the size of the book has changed,etc. ? This could include both raw books and books already slabbed. Searches could be made on various auction / consignment sites to see if the same book(s) sold at one time and scans of the book(s) are still available, and I could send you a scan(s) of the book(s) in question (either in my posession or one I was considering buying). If found to have sold prior and scans were still available, you could determine if the book(s) has physically changed in size and trimming was performed. I could pay you on a per book basis and paypal you the money, mail funds, or even pay you in comics if you want (send me a want list !) I would do the searches myself, but I just don't have the time and I am not really good with a computer. I do not want a repeat of the Fantastic Four #3 and #10. If a book that was in my possession was found to have been trimmed according to proof of the same book in a prior sale and prior condition, I would have the ability to go back to the person I got the book from and ask for a refund and report that person to the CGC (if the book happens to be already slabbed). Unfortunately CGC does not have the ability to do this seach and comparsion process and getting a restoration check and having a blue universal label placed on the book suddenly doesn't seem to be enough anymore. Let me know your thoughts. If you have any ideas of how we could work this, let me know as I am just tossing some ideas around right now.

 

 

thanks,

 

Jason

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You must remember this classic e-mail....received by me on August 27, 2005.

 

Hi Brad,

 

My name is Jason Ewert and I am a comic book dealer. An associate of mine gave me your name as the person to talk to for projects associated with graphics. My project may be a bit different than most as it has to do with comic books (of which the person mentioned you are a fan of the Green River collection - a great collection by the way!). Recently two books sent to the CGC for encapsulation under my name were found to have been potentially trimmed. That is no big deal. The big deal is that the books were encapsulated with a blue universal holder. What added to the situation is that both books originated from a Heritage Auction in February and were originally in a blue universal holder. The #3 has already arrived to the CGC and has been confirmed by Steve Borock that the book was trimmed and now lies in a holder with a purple restored label. Efforts are being made to retrieve the #10 and to have the book sent back to the CGC for a restoration check as well. If the #10 is found to have been trimmed too, obviously the book will be re-encapsulated with a purple label.

 

These occurrences have caused me a lot of grief because it becomes reasonable for people to assume I tried to sneak problem books past the CGC without their knowledge and then attempted to sell the books as unrestored. The source of both problem books has been traced and efforts are being made to see if other books sold to me and/or to others could have the same problem associated with them. I buy thousands of books a year from a number of sources. These sources include collectors and other dealers. This would also include a huge grouping of books I have stockpiled over the last 20 years. In the days before CGC, I always tried to buy what I thought was "high grade" or near mint and set is aside for a rainy day. Slowly over the last 3 years I have been pulling out these books to get slabbed. I have been fortunate to receive some nice grades and I have had my share of not so good grades, along with many books that ended up being restored without my knowledge.

 

This is where I could use your help. If I sent you scans of comic books I own or was considering purchasing, whose origins I am unaware of, or whose source of prior ownership are suspect, would you be able to check out if the books have been trimmed or not depending if the size of the book has changed,etc. ? This could include both raw books and books already slabbed. Searches could be made on various auction / consignment sites to see if the same book(s) sold at one time and scans of the book(s) are still available, and I could send you a scan(s) of the book(s) in question (either in my posession or one I was considering buying). If found to have sold prior and scans were still available, you could determine if the book(s) has physically changed in size and trimming was performed. I could pay you on a per book basis and paypal you the money, mail funds, or even pay you in comics if you want (send me a want list !) I would do the searches myself, but I just don't have the time and I am not really good with a computer. I do not want a repeat of the Fantastic Four #3 and #10. If a book that was in my possession was found to have been trimmed according to proof of the same book in a prior sale and prior condition, I would have the ability to go back to the person I got the book from and ask for a refund and report that person to the CGC (if the book happens to be already slabbed). Unfortunately CGC does not have the ability to do this seach and comparsion process and getting a restoration check and having a blue universal label placed on the book suddenly doesn't seem to be enough anymore. Let me know your thoughts. If you have any ideas of how we could work this, let me know as I am just tossing some ideas around right now.

 

 

thanks,

 

Jason

 

893whatthe.gif

 

I missed that post! Classic. 893applaud-thumb.gif

 

Have to admit, he was trying to be rather clever to worm his way out of his mess... 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Jim

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PPS Arexcrooke and DiceX have expressed interest in being on the committee......I think they should be considered. Also, AussieRuss and Davenport (if he's interested - he'll be consulted anyway.)

 

Red

Edited by Red Hook

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I voted yes, and I hope something positive comes of this. The thought of artifacts losing there provenance because of greed really pi$$es me off. I have to admit, though, that I'm a bit sceptical based on some the unkept promises made by CGC in the past, but we'll see. Thanks a lot to the board members that have agreed to do this. thumbsup2.gif

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No, I'm not talking about a full-time job. I'm talking about a group

of perhaps fifty (50) members, each with specific titles to review.

Upon their review, if they discover something odd, they would ask

the group at large for their collective opinion.

 

The thing is, that is in essence what happens now. Anyone on the boards (far more than 50) who sees something funny out there, usally posts here about it. That wouldn't stop. I wouldn't want that to stop.

 

What this all means, as far as I can see.....is that instead of Steve wading through pages and pages of a thread to figure out if there is a legitimate gripe being presented.....he just waits until the "committee" formally presents CGC with a case, and then promises to examine it closer.

 

I don't see how this would put a clamp on the exposure of potential resubs here on the boards....we are going to do what we have always done. But....as a start....to simplify things in the case of a pedigree designation loss.....a couple of board members present the evidence to CGC, after examining it and concluding it's the real deal.....and then it's up to CGC to do something about it, and then (I assume ) issue a formal answer. I guess Steve prefers that to having to respond to dozens of posts and answering a lot of tangential questions.

 

In the case of resubs....I don't expect CGC to get involved at all. That area is one that I've come to realize buyers will have to watch out for themselves. Perhaps.....perhaps at some point in future....if CGC sees how well the pedigree-recovery process works....they'd get more involved in a wider range of agreements.

 

Understand this.....I have plenty of concerns about CGC's current business model. My involvement with the proposed pedigree committee should in no way be seen as an endorsement of other CGC business practices and policies. Replacement of lost pedigree designation does not involve a huge number of books, and in fact is a problem that only comes about as a result of the much much wider crack, enhance and resub game.

 

I've always tried to keep my criticism of CGC on a non-personal basis. Criticizing the CGC/Heritage business model is separate from personally criticizing the individuals who work for CGC, most of whom I've enjoyed meeting and conversing with. I don't think "getting personal" is the way to solve differences.

 

I think CGC knows that my allegiance is to the buyer. When Jason Ewert made a proposal to me to "pre-screen" books for him and check the databases for possible "smoking gun" books....in return for money or pedigree books....I refused. That was a pretty easy decision. Steve Borock's proposal is nothing like that one. That's why I will be happy to take part and see how it goes...a step at a time.

 

Red

thumbsup2.gif

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PS....and in the interest of full disclosure.... I would like to state.....that I am over 30.

 

That is an unstatement! poke2.gif

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PPS Arexcrooke and DiceX have expressed interest in being on the committee......I think they should be considered. Also, AussieRuss and Davenport (if he's interested - he'll be consulted anyway.)

 

Red

 

I think that in a few days if the four names listed are given a thumbs up, then you can add whoever you want to round out your cabinet. Aussie should be in for sure, his database is as vital a tool as anything to date.

 

Heck, who needs a vote anyways, it was your idea and Steve was willing to work with you. Sounds good to me.

 

thumbsup2.gif

 

It is 80 and sunny outside, no humidity....outside is calling me.

 

Ze-

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No, I'm not talking about a full-time job. I'm talking about a group

of perhaps fifty (50) members, each with specific titles to review.

Upon their review, if they discover something odd, they would ask

the group at large for their collective opinion.

 

The thing is, that is in essence what happens now. Anyone on the boards (far more than 50) who sees something funny out there, usally posts here about it. That wouldn't stop. I wouldn't want that to stop.

 

What this all means, as far as I can see.....is that instead of Steve wading through pages and pages of a thread to figure out if there is a legitimate gripe being presented.....he just waits until the "committee" formally presents CGC with a case, and then promises to examine it closer.

 

I don't see how this would put a clamp on the exposure of potential resubs here on the boards....we are going to do what we have always done. But....as a start....to simplify things in the case of a pedigree designation loss.....a couple of board members present the evidence to CGC, after examining it and concluding it's the real deal.....and then it's up to CGC to do something about it, and then (I assume ) issue a formal answer. I guess Steve prefers that to having to respond to dozens of posts and answering a lot of tangential questions.

 

In the case of resubs....I don't expect CGC to get involved at all. That area is one that I've come to realize buyers will have to watch out for themselves. Perhaps.....perhaps at some point in future....if CGC sees how well the pedigree-recovery process works....they'd get more involved in a wider range of agreements.

 

Understand this.....I have plenty of concerns about CGC's current business model. My involvement with the proposed pedigree committee should in no way be seen as an endorsement of other CGC business practices and policies. Replacement of lost pedigree designation does not involve a huge number of books, and in fact is a problem that only comes about as a result of the much much wider crack, enhance and resub game.

 

I've always tried to keep my criticism of CGC on a non-personal basis. Criticizing the CGC/Heritage business model is separate from personally criticizing the individuals who work for CGC, most of whom I've enjoyed meeting and conversing with. I don't think "getting personal" is the way to solve differences.

 

I think CGC knows that my allegiance is to the buyer. When Jason Ewert made a proposal to me to "pre-screen" books for him and check the databases for possible "smoking gun" books....in return for money or pedigree books....I refused. That was a pretty easy decision. Steve Borock's proposal is nothing like that one. That's why I will be happy to take part and see how it goes...a step at a time.

 

Red

Good post, Brad. I agree with what you`ve said here.

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