bluechip Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I guess Jackpot #4 will have to settle for first cover appearance. That Top-Notch ad is pretty cool. Not a "first appearance" in the accepted sense, but I'd think of interest to Archie collectors. I didn't realize that Wilbur predated Archie. It was always pretty clear it was not the second appearance based on a perusal of the stories. The cover appearance along with the words "new feature" probably threw some people off. Especially since the cover image comes from a panel in the first story (Pep 22) which would lead some to think that perhaps they were printed simultaneously. If you didn't know about Pep 22 and you saw Jackpot 4 you would understandably think it was the first appearance Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Wow. Thanks for the info Mark. This is pretty important information for me since I'll be auctioning a 6.0 universal copy of pep 23 (3rd highest) in the august event auction on comicconnect (along with my #22 4.5!). I wonder if I can get this information to CGC and have them reslab my copy with the correct info. They've made mistakes before and changed them after learning the error of their ways. And since they've only graded 8 copies of pep 23, it's probably just a complete oversight. But that oversight could cost me thousands if it's the difference between a 3rd or 2nd appearance. Link to post Share on other sites
bluechip Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Wow. Thanks for the info Mark. This is pretty important information for me since I'll be auctioning a 6.0 universal copy of pep 23 (3rd highest) in the august event auction on comicconnect (along with my #22 4.5!). I wonder if I can get this information to CGC and have them reslab my copy with the correct info. They've made mistakes before and changed them after learning the error of their ways. And since they've only graded 8 copies of pep 23, it's probably just a complete oversight. But that oversight could cost me thousands if it's the difference between a 3rd or 2nd appearance. I don't know if it makes that much difference vis a vis 2nd or 3rd appearance, normally, but in the case of Pep 23 it's also the first time Archie and gang are actually depicted as teenagers. In Pep 22 they are clearly younger and prepubescent. Maybe 10 or so. They were aged up to teens in Pep 23 Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Okay, so get this. I just read Pep 22-26, as well as Jackpot 4 and 5. Anyone who's read Pep 26 knows without a doubt that it's the 1st appearance of Veronica. But guess what? It has a cover date of April. Now, Veronica appears in Jackpot 5...which has a release date of March(Spring). So why is it that CGC and Overstreet recognize it here that despite having the later indicia date, Pep 26 is indeed the 1st appearance. Well obviously the answer is because it's undeniable that its her 1st app! So this should serve as admission that they recognize that Peps were coming out 2 months ahead! Clearly Pep 26 was on sale in February, then Jackpot 5 came out in March when Veronica was already established. Now why on earth don't they recognize this with Pep 23! This really grinds my gears... Also, as someone else mentioned, if you read the stories, it's pretty obvious that Pep 23 is the 2nd appearance based on the content, since it doesn't take place in high school or involve other high school characters. Once Pep 24 and Jackpot 4 came out, it was all high school related and the characters had obviously taken on a more focused direction. Link to post Share on other sites
TheSurgeon Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Thanks for posting this. I think most collectors (incorrectly) believe pep 23 was the third appearance. Let us know if cgc changes the notes to indicate it's the 2nd. Edited May 19, 2014 by TheSurgeon Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Wow, nice copy you have there Surgeon. Interesting that yours just says "statue of liberty cover". My copy is the newest one to be graded and it says "3rd appearance of Archie. Statue of Liberty cover". I wonder at what point they decided to change the notes? Honestly, I wish mine just said what yours says, then I wouldn't even need to go to all this trouble, I could simply describe my listing as the 2nd appearance based on all the proof there is. Link to post Share on other sites
TheSurgeon Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I bought mine as a raw 7.0 from metro around 3 years ago and had it graded a couple of years ago. We have to get CGC to change the notes! Link to post Share on other sites
143ksk Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Any GA Archie collector who has been paying attention should know that Pep 23 is Archie's second appearance. Sadly, a lot of CGC notes on Archie books are incorrect or nonexistent. My personal favorite is Pep 34. CGC credits the cover to Novick when it's clearly signed by Fujitani. Link to post Share on other sites
TheSurgeon Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 MagicMasonry- can you post scans of your pep 22? 23-26 would be appreciated too! What's the story behind your 22? David Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Here you go David. I only have Pep 22 and 23. I read all those other books off the online database. These are my father's books. He won them off eBay back around '95 when eBay had just come out. He was at work when the auctions were ending and was using his work computer. Right when he won the Pep 22 his supervisor walked by and says "You just spent 2 grand on a comic book?!?" I can't get my own file attachments to upload and the only online examples I have are thumbnail size. How can I upload larger images? Edited May 19, 2014 by MagicMasonry Link to post Share on other sites
Tsp99 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Here you go David. I only have Pep 22 and 23. I read all those other books off the online database. These are my father's books. He won them off eBay back around '95 when eBay had just come out. He was at work when the auctions were ending and was using his work computer. Right when he won the Pep 22 his supervisor walked by and says "You just spent 2 grand on a comic book?!?" What a great story. Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) Yeah, my dad thought he was gonna be in deep doodoo, but the supervisor was apparently amused and kept walking. Ya know, in retrospect, that was actually a lot of money at the time for a VG+, especially from a completely unknown seller. This was at the infancy of the internet and there was little to no info on the book. Really quite a gamble. Which of course worked out favorably Edited May 19, 2014 by MagicMasonry Link to post Share on other sites
TheSurgeon Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Wow. Great story. I collected in the late 70s then stopped until around 2007. Even back in 07 eBay had a lot more deals on comics then now. I bought and unfortunately sold a few fantastic four 1s and amazing fantasy 15s at that time. You could buy them raw, slab then then sell them and make some money. I can imagine what it was like in 96. I'll be watching those books in the cc auction. Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingDonut Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Wow. Great story. I collected in the late 70s then stopped until around 2007. Even back in 07 eBay had a lot more deals on comics then now. I bought and unfortunately sold a few fantastic four 1s and amazing fantasy 15s at that time. You could buy them raw, slab then then sell them and make some money. I can imagine what it was like in 96. I'll be watching those books in the cc auction. The wild wild west. It was truly awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) So I just spoke with CGC and they are under the impression that Jackpot 4 came out a week earlier than Pep 23 based on the indicia dates. I told them well, in that case you better change Jackpot 5 to the 1st appearance of Veronica because Pep 26 has an indicia date of April and Jackpot 5 came out in March. They didn't want to hear that. The guy on the phone just brushed me off. Apparently both logic and empirical evidence are irrelevant to the CGC. They said I could submit my book again with my notes and they would research it again but for now they are not budging on their stance on the book. Any ideas? Edited May 22, 2014 by MagicMasonry Link to post Share on other sites
143ksk Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Send them a link to this thread? Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Send them a link to this thread? Yeah, speaking to the CGC is like pulling teeth. The guy on the phone wasn't the least bit interested in what I had to say. Hey Shield, do you still have the pictures that were in the opening post? Maybe I can send them in along with my submission. Or does anyone else have any photos of arrival dates for verification that I could use? Link to post Share on other sites
TheSurgeon Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I left a post last week in the ask cgc thread with a link here but have not back from them. Link to post Share on other sites
VintageComics Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Send them a link to this thread? Yeah, speaking to the CGC is like pulling teeth. The guy on the phone wasn't the least bit interested in what I had to say. Hey Shield, do you still have the pictures that were in the opening post? Maybe I can send them in along with my submission. Or does anyone else have any photos of arrival dates for verification that I could use? Ask specifically to talk to Mark Haspel or Paul Litch and share with them what you found in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMasonry-migration Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) Okay guys, I just spoke with Paul Litch at CGC and he was far more receptive and willing to listen. He says he's seen the thread and that he will speak with Mark Haspel when he's available and they will discuss the making of any changes and that I should email him next week to find out what happens. I'll give the update next week. edit/Thanks Roy for the advice. Edited May 22, 2014 by MagicMasonry Link to post Share on other sites
