Ladies and Gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
I think a great many of my fellow Message Board members have been waiting to hear what The O.P. has to say on the matter of THE AVENGERS #57, most of you also wondering - speculating - if, indeed, The O.P. would say anything at all.
The wait is over, friends; no need to speculate a moment more. I'm here, my name is Greg (although here amongst the Boards I'm better known as SFHeroBoyGreg), and while I'll tell you a little more about me later, I have a few general observations I'd like to share first.
In a word: Wow. I mean, Wow, as in "Cool Wow!" What a tremendous amount of positive, community-protective discussion has taken place since THE AVENGERS #57 was first posted just three nights back. I noticed several comments of concern, and quite a few with the intent of educating other Members on restoration-related matters. If just for the sheer volume of the productive discussion it engendered, the posting of THE AVENGERS #57 was an absolutely worthwhile thing to have done.
In addition, the many pages of responses posted prior to this one, as well as those that were posted to the original Sales Thread, either directly -- or at least, hinted at -- plenty of other subjects, questions, issues that are worthy of further thought: From Conduct to Content and placement of Replies, to Attitude, Assumptions, and Appropriateness; from the General Knowledge of Message Boards users and Message Boards etiquette, to the Basic Premise -- Good Faith -- of Selling in the Comics Market, to more specific things like the Pros and Cons of Anonymous Purchases and the subjective matter of the Timeliness of Response.
All of those issues, and plenty of others I'm sure I overlooked, opened doors to new discussions and matters worthy of further examination. They all, to one degree or another, had their impact on the discussion and debate post-AVENGERS #57.
While I applaud the Community-driven intention of many of the posts,, there were quite a few comments that didn't project that same proactive spirit. A single comment, like a match, can light a fire, which then becomes an inferno. Or like a Rumor, which quickly becomes Gossip. As writer L.M. Montgomery once said, "Gossip, as usual, [is] one-third right and two-thirds wrong."
Gossip, at least to me, isn't that Positive Thing we should want to inspire here on the Message Boards. Gossip - assumption, speculation, even some opinion - is not proactive, or productive, or protective of Community. It undermines the very premise. Spanish author Carlos Ruiz Zafron wrote, "In Small Towns, news travels at the speed of boredom." Boredom.
The last post I was able to make to my former Sales Thread was this:
In response to it, one final reply from a fellow Member (and frequent participant in the post-AVENGERS #57 discussion-gossip) made it on the Thread prior to the Thread being locked. All of four words, our fellow Member asked, "Exactly what Is that?"
As The O.P., I can tell you what exactly that is. My friend, That -- That is Fun.
Yes, this is, and we are, a Community -- A Small Town, if you will -- of Collectors. Of Comic Book Collectors. And aren't Comic Books, before everything and anything, supposed to be Fun?
To Infinity and Beyond, I think so. With the Themes and amateurishly homemade artwork I've used in all my former Sales Threads, I convey that belief each and every time. Comics are Fun. I want to have fun, and I want You to have fun, too. Thanks to many previous comments I've received (and greatly appreciated) from past Threads, I know that the Fun isn't lost on everyone.
Let's not forget what, however long ago, brought us to where we are today, Fellow Members: Fun.
On to the specifics here, the heart of the debate, the cream inside the proverbial Twinkies. Spoiler Warning: It's not that juicy of a steak.
To begin, let's refresh our memories by taking another small look at the offender in question:
THE AVENGERS #57, First Appearance of THE VISION . An awesome Silver Age key, a fantastic book with a very memorable cover, and the debut of a character whose name could not be more ironic given the circumstances, eh?
Per my understanding, if I may summarize:
This copy, which -- at least at first glance, if not even second or third glance -- looks great. A solid VF (8.0) book. However, upon closer inspection by many (though not all) a well-trained eye, obvious to apparently obvious signs of RESTORATION seem to be present. Indeed, the majority opinion regarding the book was/is that, in one way or another, at one place or another, and to some degree or another, THE AVENGERS #57 has been restored.
While the Thread's posting of the book for sale -- and the actual sale of the book itself just minutes afterward -- began the ensuing Discussion, the Discussion begged one real QUESTION, one that I fully agree needed to be asked:
Did The Seller Know That THE AVENGERS #57 is A Restored Book (and Not Disclose It)?
Regarding restored comic books, CGC itself said this:
In what's become a long post already, I *could* reasonably wrap-up with that, because in essence CGC has already acknowledged the "cream in the Twinkies" for me. But hey, I think after all the talk and hub-bub, I'm due a little more time, and inquiring minds need more than Twinkies, too. So...
FULL DISCLOSURE TIME!
I should throw this out: My birth certificate is in Arizona, not Hawaii. That said, in the Discussions, some incredible and (perhaps?) time-consuming research was conducted with the conclusion being that while I've sold some books here on The Message Boards, that I haven't participated in Discussion Threads. Is that true?
It's very true. But, it's not nefarious. Or undermining. It's nothing personal. And while after this long post, it's also no longer a claim that can be made. Guys, I've only ever owned, much less actually held in my two own hands, Two - Two - actual slabbed books, a New 52 Batman #1 signed by Snyder and Capullo (which I had to sell on eBay) and, more recently, a Batman #21 Capullo B&W Variant that I sold to a Fellow Member here on the Boards.
That's it. I've collected and read and enjoyed comics since I was ten years old. I'm 44 now. But until the past year or so, I really wanted nothing to do with CGC-graded books. Why? Because they ruin the Fun aspect of comic books. With graded books, comics become fantastic investments and commodities not unlike a bar of Gold or a reliable Stock, but they aren't meant to be read, or held, or smelled anymore. They lose their inherent nature of being a "comic book."
I haven't participated in Discussions because, for the most part, I'm not a member of the Slabbed Community. Comics Lovers Community, and even Sellers Community, yes. But slabbed books, no. Not that I wouldn't necessarily like to be, but I can't afford to play on that level.
That being said, and the fact of those two slabbed books I used to own, let me tell you: outside of being aware of a general process called "Comics Restoration," the in's and out's of restoring comics, right down to terms like trimming and color touch, were foreign concepts to me until the Discussion post-AVENGERS #57.
I'm not quite done with everything I have to say or that needs to be said, but it's quickly approaching 3 AM here in Oregon, and I need to get off my laptop and leave this Official Response on something of a cliff-hanger.
There IS more to the story of THE AVENGERS #57 and RESTORATION, and a follow-up post by me will be made to this Thread within the next 24 hours.
Until then, I welcome any and all questions and inquiries, comments, words of praise, ridicule, or outrage. All I ask is that you send them to me via PM, and know that I will reply to every message. It just may take a day or two.
Thanks for reading, my friends. And please, stay tuned....
I wholeheartedly agree: Simple is better. I also promised a conclusion to my earlier reply, and that is what now follows: Restoration isn't easily recognized. If one doesn't have experience with the process or what the of signs of it may be, restoration could be overlooked all-together. One can't see a thing for what it is, if they've never seen, heard, or seen and heard of it before. CGC notes that anyone, from the novice to an experienced collector, can miss restoration. That is why they screen for it. Including AVENGERS #57, I own fewer than a dozen Silver Age comic books, and none of them slabbed. I'd estimate that 90% of my collection is late Bronze Age to Modern present day. My experience with slabbed, CGC-graded books is minimal; I'd love to have much more than I do, and if I could, I'd dive head-first into the waters of the comics grading world. Having a book graded and slabbed is rational, practical, and financially sound; it makes sense, and there's a very real 'Cool Factor' to it as well. I won THE AVENGERS #57 in an eBay auction about three years ago, from a Seller who does a lot of business on the site and moves a lot of Silver and Bronze books. While I am still endeavoring to find that sellers information, I will tell you that that Auction was fiercely competitive, the book brought tons of interest, and I was stoked when I won. I still paid a pretty penny for the book, I assure you. There was no mention of any restoration work having been done to the comic, and as far as I've been concerned ever since, I bought what I paid for. My decision to sell the book, and the other Avengers comics I had just begun to post to the Thread, was based on the simple fact that I needed to make some cash. I really didn't want to part with #57 at all; I always believed it to be one of my best books, but I had to let it go. That said, I wanted to ensure I was as accurate as possible. Before beginning the Thread, I scanned the book's covers and took over a dozen photos of the inside pages, which I posted in an online photo album that can be found HERE. (I invite everyone to take a moment and review the photos.) I then contacted a fellow Forum member whom I've grown to respect, and asked him to take a look at them all and then to give me his impression. Because I don't have a ton of experience with older comics, I was concerned that my grading might be off, and I really wanted a second, well-informed opinion. If there's a need, and with the permission of the other Member who reviewed #57 on my behalf, I will be happy to post the entirety of our conversation here. Please share your opinion on the matter, and I'll post as per consensus request. In any event, as a result of that private discussion, and from what I knew of the book from my own purchase of it, I sold AVENGERS #57 for what I believed it to be: a great copy of an awesome Silver Age key, presenting it as accurately as I could, with an album of photos at the ready in order to supply as much info as possible to any interested buyer. And it was. All the information, from points raised and discussed with my friend who reviewed the book to the online photo album, was provided to the Buyer for his review prior to any commitment. The comic was bought and sold in complete good faith. (Had it not sold as quickly, then the helpful and insightful comments and the question of possible restoration would have been more than enough for me to remove the book from the Thread. ) The Buyer, a gentleman whom I've previously sold books to, wanted the sale to remain anonymous. I had no problem honoring his request, nor did I foresee any problems by doing so. None of the resulting discussion is his fault at all; however, had the sale not been anonymous, direct private communication with the Buyer would have been possible and questions, like whether or not the Buyer really even exists, would not have arisen in the fertile grounds of imagination. As they have, then if the consensus of the Forum is for me to provide proof of an actual Buyer, then I will ask them to identify themselves first. Like a journalist, I intend to everything I can to maintain the integrity of my transaction with the Buyer of #57. However, as Mr Spock would say, "The Good of the Many..." and I concur, and will take action appropriately. Moving on: Knowledge falls into three categories: The Things We Know, The Things We Know We Don't Know, and The Things We Don't Know That We Don't Know. Everything I both knew and didn't know about AVENGERS #57 was fully disclosed at time of sale. The book is as it was when I became its owner; what I know of its past comes only from what I was told. I don't know if the seller I first bought from knew that this might be a restored book, but as a very popular eBay seller with great ratings and stellar sales, I had no reason at that time to doubt any claims they made. The problems with AVENGERS #57, its likely restorations, come from beyond my practical experience. They are things I didn't know that I didn't know. As the current seller, I completely accept responsibility for the item and for resolving the sale with the Buyer. And because it would be possible for any one of us to sell, in good faith, a book that might potentially be restored, I fully support any and all discussion and education on this matter; talking about this subject in a public, open forum is good and necessary and relevant. But the discussion has its proper bounds, too. Suggestions of subterfuge, deceit, or any kind of intentional ill will, when unsubstantiated, have no place in an environment built upon a foundation of good faith. I think I've answered all that I can answer: The Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How's of the matter have been addressed. The problem, or misfortune, is not with my posting THE AVENGERS #57. Given that the likelihood of it being restored is high, the misfortune is mine alone; I paid good money for the sucker a few years back. For the Community here, I see the posting of AVENGERS #57 for what it could have been, and what it still can be: An Opportunity to inform and to educate others like myself, and many of you, who aren't familiar with restoration, so that come tomorrow or some other day down the road, one of us doesn't spend more hard-earned money on a book we my otherwise have decided against. Therefore: At this time, I personally don't have the means to submit #57 for a proper, professional restoration screening. However, if any one who is reading this does, and would like to commit to submitting the book to CGC for screening and, when completed, to share CGC's screening results with the Message Board Community, then I will hand over my copy of THE AVENGERS #57 to you, for free, in good faith, and on your word of fulfilling the obligation. First here on the Discussion Thread gets the Win.