skybolt

From now on I suggest that everyone wear head cams when you walk into an LCS, so you can visually record picking up the book yourself, packaging it when you get home, filling out the CGC form, recording your restroom breaks in the process, and getting a pair of video recording binoculars so you can spy on CGC handling your book in Sarasota. Moving forward we'll need to provide this this type of video proof to sell books on eBay.

On 12/27/2023 at 11:37 AM, Steven Valdez said:

From now on, I'll only be buying single pages in slabs. At least you can see both sides.

Make sure to check that the illustration is not someone's 5-year old kid retracing the panels. CGC will not offer that service for you.

On 12/27/2023 at 10:52 AM, wombat said:

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if they came out and said they investigated and found nothing wrong. 

I think they'll likely say that the reholdering department should've used existing protocol to regrade books that came in with damaged corners (implying the CGC case cannot be opened without smashing the seals first). This staff is currently going through additional training to ensure something similar doesn't happen again. If the current owners of the books want to send them back for a check, CGC will perform this service for free and reimburse the customer the FMV of the book if it turns out there's missing MVS's or something similar. 

My gut tells me they will not touch the grade part of it with a 10 foot pole. If for example, the current owner sends a book back that was obviously switched, CGC will be lenient with their grading and say "yeah, we feel this book is still a 9.8, so you're good (even if it was previously graded as a 9.4). 

On 12/27/2023 at 8:56 AM, agamoto said:

a few minutes in, he doesn't have a very good grasp of what's going on, and it's based on some other youtube clips he's watched. He's a goodfellow, but with a situation as serious as this one, he and everyone on his level should be reading every single post in this thread.

I felt the same way and turned it off after 10 minutes (especially after he gave credit to Automatic Comics for the Hulk 181 book ).

The reason I want to know if every single book in question needed reholdering at CGC is to find out how good this guy was at opening and sealing the case without damage. If he only used the reholdering service to receive a new designation on the label from CGC (to sell the book for a lot more), while not involving CGC with the rest of the switcheroos, then this guy is likely an expert in opening and sealing CGC cases.

If on the other hand, every single book in question was via the reholdering service, it tells me that this guy needed some help on the other end. He may have convinced a CGC staffer that he's buying a lot of books from a person in Canada, and every time he gets the books in the mail, a small percentage are damaged. If the higher up CGC staffer believed him, he could expedite the process with the reholdering group and say don't worry about checking for broken corners, the customer is legit. The scammer could've also used this relationship to get additional designations on the label.

I know CGC sent back that message regarding them conducting a investigation and using info obtained from this thread. I just wish they would resiprocate that and at least let us know if they reholdered those Hulk 181s that Comicwiz posted. This would at least let us know if this guy is using the reholdering service every time or only if he needs a new designation on the label or for CGC to scan the book.

On 12/27/2023 at 2:15 AM, agamoto said:

Just so you know some facts to consider, Yorick, he bought the book a 9.4 off ebay on April 2, 2023. He had that book delivered to him, then repacked and sent with his 4 other books in the same submission on the desk of a grader, not just received by CGC mind you, but at a grader's desk, 7 business days later on April 12th, 2023.

Like the subject of the thread says... Fishy. 

 

Agamoto, I'm really having problems trying to wrap my mind around this one. Are we sure he sent that 9.4 ASM 238 to CGC in early April to be graded? Why would he even want to grade an inferior copy again. I'm thinking he sent another direct edition ASM #238 copy that received a 9.8 grade at that time. He then did his switcheroo with the 9.4 copy and asked CGC to reholder to label the newsstand designation in July (this time the grade date changed and CGC was imaging books now). The direct edition copy graded in April was later sent in again to get the 9.8 grade to start the process again.

On 12/26/2023 at 11:10 PM, darkstar said:

A reholder isn't the same thing as a mechanical error. If you submit a Mark Jeweler copy and CGC grades it but does not note it on the label you can re-submit it as a mechanical error as long as you make the request within the 2 weeks or whatever it is from the time it was delivered. 

They would still need to open the inner well to check. It's not like they missed a newsstand designation. I was also under the impression that he purchased the original 9.8 copies and wasn't the original submitter on all of them. You can't do mechanical errors unless you were the original submitter.

On 12/26/2023 at 9:54 PM, darkstar said:

I think the original 6 book order was re-submitted as mechanical errors. The 238 and 252 were sent to CCS, because they didn't pass inspection and were sent for re-grading, which is why their cert pages have grade dates months later, 7/10, instead of the same date as the rest of the order, 4/12.

If you read the posts in the link below starting with the post by Ramithard on Feb 23 you will see this boardie sent a book in for a mechanical error that ended up going to CCS, even though the boardie didn't request or pay for that service. CGC chose to do that on their own, which ended up delaying the simple mechanical error for months. 

Going back to the 238 and 252 the images on their cert pages likely aren't of the books that were graded 9.8 by CGC. Those books, or more likely the labels, were swapped into lesser grade slabs and then submitted to CGC as reholders or mechanical errors - due to case damage or label error. If at intake the books were deemed to not require re-grading then they were sent off to be slabbed, scanned, and shipped - which means the latest scans on the cert page are of a different book than what was originally graded. There is no way CGC is dedicating the manpower to reholders or MEs to the point that every book is being inspected closely to see that it matches the grade assigned on the slab. So unless it is obvious that the case has been compromised or that the book has incurred additional damage since grading then that book isn't going to be subjected to grading again.  

Your post reads like I don't think there is anything wrong going on here, which is obviously not true. This is definitely a big bowl of fraud, but I don't see how anyone at CGC could be knowingly involved. The sheer volume of books CGC receives, not to mention how many orders the scammer has submitted, pretty much eliminates the possibility that one person at CGC could effectively control all of the fraud books at receiving and then steer them through the entire process while at CGC.

Everything you say makes sense (if the scammer is a pro at opening and welding back cases without detection). The biggest issue I have with CGC is how in the world do they re-holder several 9.8 graded books and give the Mark Jeweler designation without opening the inner well first to check? Like I've mentioned before, a Youtuber noted that CGC told him he couldn't use the reholdering service to add a newsstand designation (he wasn't the original submitter), and would need to regrade the book instead. If that's the case, then how could this scammer get CGC to reholder his books to add the Mark Jeweler designation without inspecting the inner well first? At minimum this should've raised a red flag for the reholdering department because 9.8 Mark Jewelers are rare and command a premium. Did CGC even mention to the guy that they would have to overcharge him because the book is now worth over $10k? If the previous submitter was using a cheaper service the first time around for his regular newsstand copy, shouldn't CGC automatically regrade the book because high grade Mark Jewelers command a lot more? 

Honestly, in this scenario CGC should not even give the submitter a chance to get the book back without them inspecting it first (once there is any suspicion). If their recommendation is to open the inner well to ensure there's actually a Mark Jeweler insert in there, they should go ahead and do it anyway. They can't just send the book back to the guy, especially if it had additional defects like the ASM #252 book, and let it be someone else's problem.  My gut tells me that at minimum, the guy found a deep pocketed customer pleaser at CGC who believed his every word and would streamline these reholder requests for him without question. 

On 12/26/2023 at 4:35 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I hear ya Sky, I do. I'm not talking about that book.

Read what comicwiz shared on page 126. 

A green book was originally graded on 2/24, then regraded with a blue label on 2/28 (over the weekend). It's the same green book, switched to a blue label, with a DIFFERENT cert#. 

This is making my head hurt. 

My apologies for getting the dates wrong, but my comment stands. What I'm saying is the book graded on 2/28 is not the same book in the universal holder now. That one was a legitimate universal 6.5.  if the scammer switched this book with green label one and sent it in for reholdering a month later, the grading date would remain as 2/28, but with the green label book in there now. 

On 12/26/2023 at 4:21 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I'm not talking about a Blue book being switched with lesser quality Blue book. This Hulk 181 was originally given a Green label, then regraded to Blue, in one working day. You could argue this was a mistake, but that same mistake has happened with 5 other Hulk 181s all sold by the same person. The switch of either the book or the label happened at CGC.

I think what people are saying is that the actual 2/23/2023 grading date of the qualified book is correct. This book was graded by CGC on that date, no questions asked. However, an unrestored copy of Hulk #181 was graded 2/26/2023, but it could be a completely different book inside the case. Once the scammer bought this book (or perhaps he was the original submitter) let's say in mid March. He then did the whole switcheroo, submitted the book back to CGC in late March, but because it was a straight reholder, it kept the original grading date of 2/26, but with a different book in the case.

On 12/26/2023 at 3:48 PM, agamoto said:

Who told ya it doesn't update? That's not what I've found.

For example, here's a series of books our special friend submitted for grading. 

Note how most of the books were graded 4-12-2023

With the exception being 4235257005 (and 7001) which were reholdered into a custom label with the date changed to 7-10-2023

Here's notes and the images they took of the book that day. https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257005/

Have a good look at that top staple crease. 

9.8 you say, CGC? Huh... How about that.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. If CGC needs to include additional designations on a label or add a custom label during reholdering, then I'm assuming a new date is added because the label is different from before. However, in the examples we've found where the grading dates between the qualified  and unrestored books are within a few days (or negative in some cases), I'm assuming CGC will just reprint the old label and keep the original grading date. I hope someone can provide some additional clarification.

On 12/26/2023 at 1:07 PM, WolverineX said:

hahaha.  I must see this. 

I like Vincent. As a newbie to the back issue collecting market back in 2003, he had no problem spending 20 to 30 minutes chatting on the phone and giving me salient advice regarding the market in general.

On 12/26/2023 at 12:45 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Yup

Gotta go down with the ship now 

Meet you at the stern.

On 12/26/2023 at 11:28 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What about trimmed books? 

Still visible from the outer shell. The scammer wanted to remain as discrete as possible and basically hide behind CGC overgrading books as an excuse.

On 12/26/2023 at 11:21 AM, mephistopheles said:

Maybe it was a simple typo by CGC data entry clerk? Is it only the 1 switcheroo with impossible grade dates?

As noted above, we now believe the date discrepancy was based on the original unrestored slab retaining its original grading date, even if it was reholdered months later (after the switcheroo). 

On 12/26/2023 at 10:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

JMO

People are going to open these blue labels and find the qualified books inside.

I don't think there are undetectable marrieds.

I also think this is the reason we haven't seen any restored books in blue labels yet (at least from this guy). He doesn't want to take the chance of a CGC employee or a buyer finding an obvious resto on the front and back cover. The missing inserts are easier to hide.

On 12/26/2023 at 9:58 AM, skybolt said:

Thank you for that clarification. Based on what you're saying, this now goes back to being a re-holdering scam EVERY TIME. To go through a time line, let's use Comicwiz's recent posting as an example.

-  9/6/2022 - CGC grades a 6.5 copy submitted by a random collector or potentially by the scammer (if he obtained a raw copy somewhere).

-  11/16/2022 - CGC grades a qualified 6.0 copy submitted by a random collector or perhaps the scammer if he's able to find raw copies for cheap in the distant past.

- Sometime between September 2022 and April 2023 the scammer buys the CGC graded unrestored 6.5 copy (or uses one of his raw copies). I can't see this original sale on GPA (as well as other examples Comicwiz posted), which leads me to believe the scammer is either buying these books from someone who doesn't report sales to GPA or he's been hoarding multiple raw copies of key books like Hulk 181, ASM 238, etc. and is sending them in to be graded first.  He probably got them for cheap 5, 10, 15 years ago.

- On 2/23/2023 the scammer buys the raw qualified 6.0 copy. Not sure if this sale is legit or he bought his own copy.

- Sometime between February 23, 2023 and April 11, 2023, the scammer switches the books and sends the qualified book with the 6.5 blue label to CGC for re-holdering.

- At some point thereafter, he has the original unrestored 6.5 copy regraded by CGC to restart the process.

Replying to my own post here. When I mentioned this was a reholdering scam every time, that doesn't have to necessarily be true in every case. We know that the seller needed to push the envelope and send things through CGC to get the newsstand and Mark Jeweler designations on the new labels via re-holdering. However, with respect to these Hulk 181's, we really don't have any proof that he used the re-holdering process. If he is able to crack open slabs and weld them back together without detection, then the switcheroo could've just as easily occurred at his home. That being said, I still think it's fishy that CGC would give the Mark Jeweler designation without insisting on opening the inner well to check if the insert is detached or not.

On 12/26/2023 at 8:19 AM, GDN said:

CGC isn't regrading during the reholder so the unique certification # still shows up in CGC database with its original grading date (which is the date of a different book) even though it shows the new photos of the book with new label (often custom label).

The "blue" grading date is actually the date the book that was swapped out of the blue case was graded and not the date of the reholder.  This is why the timeline of the green label grading date and the frankensteined blue label grading date don't have to make sense in continuity.

Thank you for that clarification. Based on what you're saying, this now goes back to being a re-holdering scam EVERY TIME. To go through a time line, let's use Comicwiz's recent posting as an example.

-  9/6/2022 - CGC grades a 6.5 copy submitted by a random collector or potentially by the scammer (if he obtained a raw copy somewhere).

-  11/16/2022 - CGC grades a qualified 6.0 copy submitted by a random collector or perhaps the scammer if he's able to find raw copies for cheap in the distant past.

- Sometime between September 2022 and April 2023 the scammer buys the CGC graded unrestored 6.5 copy (or uses one of his raw copies). I can't see this original sale on GPA (as well as other examples Comicwiz posted), which leads me to believe the scammer is either buying these books from someone who doesn't report sales to GPA or he's been hoarding multiple raw copies of key books like Hulk 181, ASM 238, etc. and is sending them in to be graded first.  He probably got them for cheap 5, 10, 15 years ago.

- On 2/23/2023 the scammer buys the raw qualified 6.0 copy. Not sure if this sale is legit or he bought his own copy.

- Sometime between February 23, 2023 and April 11, 2023, the scammer switches the books and sends the qualified book with the 6.5 blue label to CGC for re-holdering.

- At some point thereafter, he has the original unrestored 6.5 copy regraded by CGC to restart the process.

On 12/25/2023 at 11:52 PM, agamoto said:

True enough. I'll bet if you know someone who can scan and mill the aluminum mold for ya, your cost of entry in the seal your own CGC case game would be under $10K for the welder and a 1000 cases.

Honestly though, borrowing occams razor from the other guy, all it would take is a much cheaper hand held ultrasonic welder to open one corner near the label, pull the label out, weld open the donor case top corner, slip the 9.8 label in and then smash the corner with a hammer, covering up the mischief and sending in for reholder. 

CGC knows precisely how he's submitting these books, and it's starting to me off that they haven't had anything to say on the subject.

Perhaps they're waiting to meet with representatives from Blackstone first. I doubt we'll get anything until early January.