Amazing Fantasy #15 Club

[peewee22]

Man, this book deserves a re grade !!!

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fsearch.asp%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dfantasy%2B15%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_850401&id=850401

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Is anyone here in the market for a really nice AF15? There is a 9.0 AF15, asking for $25k on Pedigree. It's a PLOD because of the top edge being trimmed and a very slight color touch. Somebody messed up doing that, but the price is very good for what would otherwise be a $80-100k book.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/detail.php?issue_id=32238

[Point Five]

Is anyone here in the market for a really nice AF15? There is a 9.0 AF15, asking for $25k on Pedigree. It's a PLOD because of the top edge being trimmed and a very slight color touch. Somebody messed up doing that, but the price is very good for what would otherwise be a $80-100k book.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/detail.php?issue_id=32238

As nice a book as it is, I think the price is actually a bit aggressive given the trimmed edge. Unfortunately, the market is no fan of trimming, no matter how slight. Methinks it will sit for a while.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I know, but if I did have that kind of money I'd rather have that than the extensively restored books. That one is even more of a shame than the 9.2 green labeled AF15 that has three binder holes in it. I think books with minor trimming in very high grades should be qualified green labeled. I see a lot of difference between books with lots of alterations to them(pieces added, glossing, color touch, sealed tears), and the slight trimming of edges. I know the industry and community is dead set in their ways, even if they are wrong. I just need to point that out occasionally. Regards,

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Man, this book deserves a re grade !!!

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fsearch.asp%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dfantasy%2B15%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_850401&id=850401

 

I saw that in the upcoming CLink auction yesterday. That is a very nice 5.5, it looks better than my two raw AF15's that are right in that range.

[showcase22gr1959]

Man, this book deserves a re grade !!!

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fsearch.asp%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dfantasy%2B15%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_850401&id=850401

 

Nice looking 5.5 for sure.

[Mac Man]

Is anyone here in the market for a really nice AF15? There is a 9.0 AF15, asking for $25k on Pedigree. It's a PLOD because of the top edge being trimmed and a very slight color touch. Somebody messed up doing that, but the price is very good for what would otherwise be a $80-100k book.

 

http://www.pedigreecomics.com/detail.php?issue_id=32238

As nice a book as it is, I think the price is actually a bit aggressive given the trimmed edge. Unfortunately, the market is no fan of trimming, no matter how slight. Methinks it will sit for a while.

 

You know what thought Jon? It kinda irks me that trimming gets SUCH a bad wrap and it considered resto especially when you consider cut coupons and missing pieces. Personally, I'll take a trimmed book any day of the week over one with a missing piece. Once again, it is less about the defect than it is the dirtbags who don't disclose this much more difficult to spot defect than it is the flaw itself that turns buyers off.

 

The only reason I don't own many trimmed books myself is that I find this defect is one that afflicts more highgrade books than lower grade books--a "disease" of the higher class comic collector, if you will

[Peter Loves Gwen]

...

 

The only reason I don't own many trimmed books myself is that I find this defect is one that afflicts more highgrade books than lower grade books--a "disease" of the higher class comic collector, if you will

 

, isn't it the people trying to make something with their low grade books, who trim them to make high grade books?

 

I have a few, and just recently discovered I had them. They aren't easy to spot in most pictures, but in hand you can usually see it quickly. I sent a group of books last month to Matt and to CGC, one that I was sure was trimmed may not be. Matt liked the look of my best ASM 47, but it is much shorter than other books. We'll see what CGC makes of it.

[Flash105]

So, realistically what do you think the sell price on the trimmed af15 should be. To me, I would like that resto better than a book with pieces added, married covers, or a cleaned cover.

[maloney414]

...

 

The only reason I don't own many trimmed books myself is that I find this defect is one that afflicts more highgrade books than lower grade books--a "disease" of the higher class comic collector, if you will

 

, isn't it the people trying to make something with their low grade books, who trim them to make high grade books?

 

 

Mac Man is right. I think he's talking about much lower graded books. For example, there is no reason to trim a CGC 1.8 book. Why bother?

 

Maybe a mid-grade book, but not the low grades.

[Point Five]

You know what thought Jon? It kinda irks me that trimming gets SUCH a bad wrap and it considered resto especially when you consider cut coupons and missing pieces. Personally, I'll take a trimmed book any day of the week over one with a missing piece. Once again, it is less about the defect than it is the dirtbags who don't disclose this much more difficult to spot defect than it is the flaw itself that turns buyers off.

Yep, and I agree with you guys -- the stigma that very slight trimming has is out of proportion when compared to other flaws like those you mention. But, if I'm in the market for a $25K book (unfortunately, this is QUITE hypothetical) , I do have to consider "the market's" opinion re trimming when making a decision... it's not enough that I think the trim is no big deal, because the book might be impossible to sell anywhere near what I paid down the road.

 

Tough to gauge the actual value on such a unique item, but I'd think closer to $15K, fair or not.

 

 

[Mac Man]

...

 

The only reason I don't own many trimmed books myself is that I find this defect is one that afflicts more highgrade books than lower grade books--a "disease" of the higher class comic collector, if you will

 

, isn't it the people trying to make something with their low grade books, who trim them to make high grade books?

 

I have a few, and just recently discovered I had them. They aren't easy to spot in most pictures, but in hand you can usually see it quickly. I sent a group of books last month to Matt and to CGC, one that I was sure was trimmed may not be. Matt liked the look of my best ASM 47, but it is much shorter than other books. We'll see what CGC makes of it.

 

You need to come over and take a look at my books and see just how HIGH grade they'd get with a trimming! Watch out! My FR/GD is flying up to a solid GD!

 

Sorry, I'm tired and a touch punchy

 

But the reality is you simply don't see many low grade people trimming anywhere near as much as you do high grade collectors from the lower end of that spectrum trying to push higher into that range. From VG and below, there is no point to it--it's already a low grade due to other defects so you won't see a noticeable jump at that point with a trimming. When you have a top cover with a ding or micro tear here and there, however, that will take a 9.2 or higher into the VF range.

 

So yes, while there are some trimming occurrences in the lower ranges, it's nowhere near as often as I see with the higher end books (7.0 and up).

[Mac Man]

You know what thought Jon? It kinda irks me that trimming gets SUCH a bad wrap and it considered resto especially when you consider cut coupons and missing pieces. Personally, I'll take a trimmed book any day of the week over one with a missing piece. Once again, it is less about the defect than it is the dirtbags who don't disclose this much more difficult to spot defect than it is the flaw itself that turns buyers off.

Yep, and I agree with you guys -- the stigma that very slight trimming has is out of proportion when compared to other flaws like those you mention. But, if I'm in the market for a $25K book (unfortunately, this is QUITE hypothetical) , I do have to consider "the market's" opinion re trimming when making a decision... it's not enough that I think the trim is no big deal, because the book might be impossible to sell anywhere near what I paid down the road.

 

Tough to gauge the actual value on such a unique item, but I'd think closer to $15K, fair or not.

 

 

And Jon, my argument was not at all with you (which I'm sure you know!-). I'm more frustrated that it's not simply seen as a defect and the book docked accordingly. You are correct that once you leave a certain price-range (and for me, that is pretty much $100 and up), you have to be aware of the market values and other factors in your investment. I love comics as much as the next person but I think people are disingenuous when they claim they don't view comics as an investment but are buying books at that high of a dollar value. OF COURSE they are, it's just that might not be their primary aim is all. But the need to invest wisely is still there.

 

It's just a shame that trimming is viewed so poorly. But I suppose it's probably on par with how low grade collectors view brittle pages--as this is rare for the high grade collector to encounter (though less so) as trimming is for the low grade.

[Point Five]

And Jon, my argument was not at all with you

Too late for that. It's ON!

[jkrk]

Man, this book deserves a re grade !!!

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fsearch.asp%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dfantasy%2B15%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_850401&id=850401

 

I saw that in the upcoming CLink auction yesterday. That is a very nice 5.5, it looks better than my two raw AF15's that are right in that range.

 

 

The 5.5 presents very well.

 

Any thoughts as to the final hammer price?

[G.A.tor]

Man, this book deserves a re grade !!!

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fsearch.asp%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dfantasy%2B15%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_850401&id=850401

 

I saw that in the upcoming CLink auction yesterday. That is a very nice 5.5, it looks better than my two raw AF15's that are right in that range.

 

 

The 5.5 presents very well.

 

Any thoughts as to the final hammer price?

whatever one of us wins it for

[Peter Loves Gwen]

...

 

The only reason I don't own many trimmed books myself is that I find this defect is one that afflicts more highgrade books than lower grade books--a "disease" of the higher class comic collector, if you will

 

, isn't it the people trying to make something with their low grade books, who trim them to make high grade books?

 

I have a few, and just recently discovered I had them. They aren't easy to spot in most pictures, but in hand you can usually see it quickly. I sent a group of books last month to Matt and to CGC, one that I was sure was trimmed may not be. Matt liked the look of my best ASM 47, but it is much shorter than other books. We'll see what CGC makes of it.

 

You need to come over and take a look at my books and see just how HIGH grade they'd get with a trimming! Watch out! My FR/GD is flying up to a solid GD!

 

Sorry, I'm tired and a touch punchy

 

But the reality is you simply don't see many low grade people trimming anywhere near as much as you do high grade collectors from the lower end of that spectrum trying to push higher into that range. From VG and below, there is no point to it--it's already a low grade due to other defects so you won't see a noticeable jump at that point with a trimming. When you have a top cover with a ding or micro tear here and there, however, that will take a 9.2 or higher into the VF range.

 

So yes, while there are some trimming occurrences in the lower ranges, it's nowhere near as often as I see with the higher end books (7.0 and up).

 

 

, I'm smiling, just having conversation truly. I know what you meant and agree completely. The books I have like that were bought 20-30 years ago as NM's or VFNM's, and as young as I was I didn't know how common that stuff was. Most of my collection from then was all over graded by the seller. I felt odd constantly seeing VF books that had NM labels on them. It was hard to find real NM books locally, and the other choice was by mail with strangers.

 

I think the PLOD value seems to be in the 25% range right now. That seems fair for any heavily restored book, but not for every restored book. The amount of "restoration" should be a massive factor in determining a price for a restored book. A simple unseen color touch should mean very little to value. A trimmed edge should seen as a masking of an assumed bad edge, simply grade it at two levels. Restored books should get two grades, the "apparent" grade and an "assumed" grade based on the worst case. Assume the edge was ragged/torn/chipped, the color touch covers lack of color etc.

 

That way pricing such a book would be more logical and fair. The heavily restored books would have a much lower "assumed" grade connected to them, and thus the FMV wouldn't be compared to an unrestored "apparent" grade book. Doing that would not affect the PLOD's with lots of alterations, but the very minor PLOD's would be realistically be worth more, and fairly so. This is just my opinion though, one person isn't going to change much, so this is just conversation. Regards,

[fantastic_four]

The reason the market hates trimming has nothing to do with aesthetics, it has to do with trust and greed. As has been pointed out the primary reason trimming is done is to make an already-high-grade book look even higher grade to get an exponential increase in value. If you're shelling out big bucks for a comic, NOBODY likes finding out it's trimmed later on, so the entire idea of trimming gets associated with deception in the minds of collectors. Legit restorers rarely trim, or at least they usually advise against trimming, as the prevalent attitude I've heard amongst them is that it's destruction, not restoration. So if a book is trimmed, the overwhelming odds are that it was done out of a motivation to deceive.

 

The prevailing motivations behind why people trim aren't likely to change, so accordingly, neither is the prevailing collector perception of trimming.

[Mac Man]

The reason the market hates trimming has nothing to do with aesthetics, it has to do with trust and greed. As has been pointed out the primary reason trimming is done is to make an already-high-grade book look even higher grade to get an exponential increase in value. If you're shelling out big bucks for a comic, NOBODY likes finding out it's trimmed later on, so the entire idea of trimming gets associated with deception in the minds of collectors. Legit restorers rarely trim, or at least they usually advise against trimming, as the prevalent attitude I've heard amongst them is that it's destruction, not restoration. So if a book is trimmed, the overwhelming odds are that it was done out of a motivation to deceive.

 

The prevailing motivations behind why people trim aren't likely to change, so accordingly, neither is the prevailing collector perception of trimming.

 

A sad truth to be sure. Here's the rub for me:

 

If I have an old book with some nasty overhang, I could carefully fold it and tear it off myself--and it's not trimmed--but receives the same aesthetic benefit. If I took a pair of scissors to the same piece, PLOD!

 

Ain't that just a kicker?

 

But this is more of a question, I suppose, for the Grading and Restoration subforum. I would generally agree with the 25% starting point for restored books and moving up from there depending on the grade, level of restoration, and the issue itself. Slowly working my way into Golden Age, I'm finding minute amounts of resto (amateur OR pro) hardly affect the price point at all in the lower grades--it's just one more defect amongst the many. I think perhaps the reason GA low grades are not affected by the stigma of resto like Silver Age and later has much to do with supply and demand. Bottom line is I will never, ever, ever, ever willingly sell of my AF 15--any GA book I own would go out the door before this one. But I equally understand that my AF 15 has a much higher supply readily available than more of my GA books so any disqualifying factor will play that much more heavily against this title.

[VintageComics]

You know what thought Jon? It kinda irks me that trimming gets SUCH a bad wrap and it considered resto especially when you consider cut coupons and missing pieces. Personally, I'll take a trimmed book any day of the week over one with a missing piece. Once again, it is less about the defect than it is the dirtbags who don't disclose this much more difficult to spot defect than it is the flaw itself that turns buyers off.

 

The only reason I don't own many trimmed books myself is that I find this defect is one that afflicts more highgrade books than lower grade books--a "disease" of the higher class comic collector, if you will

 

This is clear thinking but the unfortunately the majority doesn't agree.

 

I too do not mind a trimmed book and prefer it to a book that has had large chunks of the cover replaced etc.

 

Maybe one day people will change their minds.

 

(thumbs u