The Unofficial Underground Comix thread... 14 14

[ecgt]

There are some inconsistencies with the Concordia page. For example, they have a picture of Dr. Brute listed as Snore 4, but the image is from Bright Things. I had suspected that Mr. Peanut was Snore # 4, but Dan reached out to Trasov who said that his comic was indeed the 8th one in the series.

[Reverend]

The Shoe Journal just seems too expensive to pull the trigger on, so I don't own a copy. I'm beginning to wonder if "Snore Comix #5" is mentioned anywhere in the publication, or if it's just considered a spiritual predecessor in the Snore series. If that's the case, perhaps the numbering is erroneous and it's really #4. I've been in touch with AA Bronson over the years, so I suppose I could email him for clarification, but he's seemed a bit vague in his correspondence.

[Reverend]

There are some inconsistencies with the Concordia page. For example, they have a picture of Dr. Brute listed as Snore 4, but the image is from Bright Things. I had suspected that Mr. Peanut was Snore # 4, but Dan reached out to Trasov who said that his comic was indeed the 8th one in the series.

 

If it was, indeed, published in 1969, how could it have been #8?

[ecgt]

This is a bit confusing. Bright Things is dated 1970 on the first page and Snore 2 is dated 1970 on the back cover. I suspect that the author of this piece has the dates wrong, as the evidence available suggests that the Flip Book was published later. In fact, it would have to be if it is part of the Snore Comix line. The only way that 1969 is the correct date is if the Flip Book was not part of Snore Comix. I am inclined to believe what Trasov told Dan until proven otherwise.

[ecgt]

I think price is the main reason why Shoe Journal is still available after 10 years. I would love to own one, but not at that price. I think its overpriced by $100. Mind you, they are trying to sell it as an art object, rather than as a comic.

 

I have also wondered whether or not the numbering for Snore Comix is off, which is one of the reasons why I suspected that the Mr. Peanut Flip Book was actually # 4 in the first place. It is entirely possible and believable that there is not a missing book and that the way that different people researching the series have numbered everything is incorrect.

[Reverend]

This is a bit confusing. Bright Things is dated 1970 on the first page and Snore 2 is dated 1970 on the back cover. I suspect that the author of this piece has the dates wrong, as the evidence available suggests that the Flip Book was published later. In fact, it would have to be if it is part of the Snore Comix line. The only way that 1969 is the correct date is if the Flip Book was not part of Snore Comix. I am inclined to believe what Trasov told Dan until proven otherwise.

 

I understand what you're saying, but after a decade of researching this stuff, having interviewed hundreds of people (artists, printers, collectors, curators, librarians, etc.), I've been given my fair share of erroneous informatio. Many of the artists have even said it's been forty or fifty years, and their memories are vague, which is completely justified. With that said, considering how confusing the history of this particular title is, I'm not going to assume anything until I see physical proof.

 

Perhaps I sound jaded, and I am in some ways. I've been on several wild goose chases for things that turned out not to even exist. Poor Farm Comics & Stories #1 is a prime example. As it turned out, the numbering began at #2 to confuse future collectors and historians. It was done as a joke, albeit a cruel one, to the obsessively compulsive individual, such as myself.

 

I digress. I suppose it would be prudent to email whoever wrote that article that the picture of the Mr. Peanut flip book accompanies, and ask them where they got the publication date of 1969.

[Reverend]

Going back to the image of Mr. Peanut. There's no title on the front cover, which is a bit alarming. I would hope there would be one in the indicia, that is, if there's even indicia. If there's not, how would a library catalogue that, or a bookseller advertise it? I've run into that problem many times. You get something like: "Untitled artist's book c. 1969" . . .

 

Also, why was Mr. Peanut printed but never released? Did Trasov say that? I'd be curious how many were done up and where they are now.

[Reverend]

Aha! It's a good thing I keep old emails. Here's one I received from AA Bronson over nine years ago, back in 2007 (I've been obsessing on Snore for a long time!):

 

From: AA Bronson

To: Victor

Subject: Re: Snore Comix

Date: Friday, November 16, 2007 3:56:29 PM

 

Hi Victor,

 

It might be better to ask Coach House themselves. I have copies in deep storage but not ready at hand. I think that there were three issues published, the third edited and designed by me. I had also planned an additional three issues, none of which were completed at the time. However, the Shoe Journal was printed (not bound), and Art Metropole took it upon themselves to bind the signatures at long last this year... so it now exists, although it is no longer identified as an issue of Snore.

 

best

aa

Edited December 31, 2016 by Reverend

[Reverend]

So, going by what Bronson said, there were three issues of Snore printed (the unnumbered first issue, the perfect bound mini and Bright Things), followed by The Shoe Journal, which, he says, is no longer considered a part of the series.

 

Maybe the additional three issues he speaks about are Mr. Peanut, Slug Book and The Coach House Nose Who's Who. If this is true, that would account for seven issues in all.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Reverend

[ecgt]

This email is a great source. I'm glad to read it. If Bronson only planned three other issues then it calls into question the existence of a "# 4" (at least in terms of the numbering I provided) and also calls into question whether or not Mr. Peanut is even an issue of Snore! It also suggests that Slug Book and Coach House Nose Who's Who were not ever printed. Good stuff, Reverend.

 

At the same time, the image from Steven Ross Smith and from the information Dan shared with me from Trasov, we have conclusive evidence that Mr. Peanut was printed in some capacity. Whether or not it was officially released is still up for debate. I do not doubt Smith's credibility (as he was part of the concrete poetry movement and knew bpNichol personally). Another possibility is that the date that he gives for Mr. Peanut is being confused with the date when Trasov started dressing as the character. I did not speak directly with Trasov, but I am willing to give Trasov's version more clout than Smith's. But, Bronson's explanation calls into question Trasov's version, or creates problems or assuming that Slug Book or Coach House Nose are part of the Snore line. If someone can procure a Mr. Peanut and there is no date printed or indicia (which is quite possible) then the problem remains unsolved.

 

This series of problems is why I agree with everything you say in the post where you mention Poor Farm Comics. There is definitive proof for Snore 1, 2, 3 and Shoe Journal. There is proof that the Mr. Peanut Flip Book exists physically. There is erroneous information out there and without physical evidence this will continue. The best we can do is make educated guesses based on information from primary sources.

 

And Snore Comix is one of various Canadian Undergrounds where these kinds of problems exist...

[ecgt]

I interpreted Bronson's message to you as being three additional issues of Snore including Shoe Journal. Perhaps you are right that it is Shoe Journal and then three others. Nevertheless, this accounts for seven issues maximum. I am going to update the Grand Comic Database during the weekend to account for the information you have provided here.

Edited December 31, 2016 by ecgt

[50 Cent #II (1st)]

The back cover of Snore #2 states April 1970 600 copies for reference if the .pdf goes offline.

[Reverend]

I wonder, is this the Mr. Peanut flip book that's pictured on the aforementioned site?

 

 

https://vimeo.com/117211678

Edited January 1, 2017 by Reverend

[ecgt]

Great find! I watched the video a few times and it looks like there is no author information or mention of Snore Comix anywhere in the flip book. The plot thickens.

[ecgt]

If you compare the PDF on the bpNichol site with the image posted on the Concordia site one is orange and the other is white.

 

dannyboycheapboy pointed this out to me a few weeks ago and it opens up the possibility that there are print variants for Snore 2.

 

http://ccca.concordia.ca/c/images/screen/cca/misc/hlynsky/hlynsky036.jpg

[dannyboycheapyboy]

OMG. Could it be? About 2 pages of thread devoted to obscure UGCanadiana.

 

Question to Brian and/or Victor: What would be the qualification to label something as part of the "Snore" series?

 

Does the use of "Snore" have to appear within the item? If the answer to you is yes, then there probably only 3 "Snore Comix" in the series.

 

I always took it to mean to be a comic or a comic-like publication from Coach House - with development from a Snore 1 or 2 contributor.

 

None of the pubs were intended to be a conventional comic, but more to do with a statement from 2 collectives of surrealist artists.

 

I have tried contacting CHP for a fuller explanation of Concordia's IDing an eight book series - no response.

 

On Mr. Peanut, here is what Trasov said:

 

"The peanut flip book was intended as part of Snore Comix series. There was never a cover nor any text, just the stapled images of mr. Peanut tap dancing. So it was probably never published as part of Snore Comix"

 

I have tried to contact Jim Lang, but he is back in the US.

A good poet friend of his (living in the same city) was trying to contact him on my behalf - no answer as of yet.

 

As you both probably know, Gilbert, Scia/Zontal and Nichols have all moved on.

Edited January 3, 2017 by dannyboycheapyboy

[Reverend]

OMG. Could it be? About 2 pages of thread devoted to obscure UGCanadiana.

 

Question to Brian and/or Victor: What would be the qualification to label something as part of the "Snore" series?

 

Does the use of "Snore" have to appear within the item? If the answer to you is yes, then there probably only 3 "Snore Comix" in the series.

 

I always took it to mean to be a comic or a comic-like publication from Coach House - with development from a Snore 1 or 2 contributor.

 

None of the pubs were intended to be a conventional comic, but more to do with a statement from 2 collectives of surrealist artists.

 

I have tried contacting CHP for a fuller explanation of Concordia's IDing an eight book series - no response.

 

On Mr. Peanut, here is what Trasov said:

 

"The peanut flip book was intended as part of Snore Comix series. There was never a cover nor any text, just the stapled images of mr. Peanut tap dancing. So it was probably never published as part of Snore Comix"

 

I have tried to contact Jim Lang, but he is back in the US.

A good poet friend of his (living in the same city) was trying to contact him on my behalf - no answer as of yet.

 

As you both probably know, Gilbert, Scia/Zontal and Nichols have all moved on.

 

I'm usually very forgiving of what should be included in a comprehensive list of alternative and underground comics. With that said, it's difficult for me to regard the Mr. Peanut flip book as such. The same may be said of The Shoe Journal, though I haven't seen its contents--I'm inclined to believe it's a collection of drawings of shoes. Both items are artist's books. As such, I'm not sure that they should be included in a list of comic books. If they truly were a continuation of Snore Comix, I suppose they could be added for that reason, but with an asterisk, explaining their inclusion.

 

This is similar to Jay Kennedy's inclusion of the minis that were purely poetry (Splat!, Toy Dandruff, etc.), except for their front covers, which were done by underground comix artists.

 

Don't get me wrong--I love this stuff, and I collect it. The problem is where to draw the line. If artist's books by well, or better, known artists who had some manner of tie to the comix world, if only on the periphery, are included, then why shouldn't similar publications, by lesser known artists, also be included? If they are included, it might be best to create a category for them.

 

At the end of the day, it's only a problem because it broadens the scope of research required to document all of it. But, the more people working on it, the easier it will be!

[ecgt]

I am continually struggling with these very questions, guys. Having watched the Mr. Peanut flip book video, it is obviously not a comic. I also suspect that the Shoe Journal is nothing more than a collection of drawings of shoes, as Victor suggests. It would make sense in the context General Idea's artwork more generally. I agree that further research is required.

 

Looking through the PDF of Snore 2 and flipping through my own copy of Bright Things, I feel that both barely pass the eye test as comics. Not to take away from the many contributors to these issues, but this is true for bpNichol's entire body of work. Some publications are borderline comics and others are strictly poetry chapbooks. As a concrete poet of importance among Canadian literary scholars, regardless of how his works are classified, it is undeniable that his comics and chapbooks are experiments with form. Nevertheless, I have had not problem dropping many of bpNichol's chapbooks from the list of Canadian comics that I have been working on because they were not presented as comics by the author himself.

 

This is essentially my answer to Dan's main question for now: if it can be demonstrated that all of these publications were intended to be part of the Snore Comix line then they should be documented as such as part of a project trying to document Canadian comics, even if this requires an asterisk. That's how I would draw the line, for better or for worse.

 

All of this leads me to think of a different question that is probably not helpful, but is at least useful to think about: if Snore Comix did not have the word "comix" in the title, would we even be thinking about the three issues as comix?

 

I have yet to have a chance to look at a copy of Snore 1. I did learn this past weekend that Dalhousie's Killam Library has Snore Comix listed in its special collections. I am going to see about setting up a meeting with that department sometime this month to take a look and to see if I can procure permission to take scans or pictures.

[Reverend]

All of this leads me to think of a different question that is probably not helpful, but is at least useful to think about: if Snore Comix did not have the word "comix" in the title, would we even be thinking about the three issues as comix?

 

That's a very good question and one that I've asked myself many times! I haven't seen the interior of #1, but I think I would allow #2 and #3 in, at least in a peripheral category, such as artist's books. The almighty "Comix" in the title helps immensely, though.

 

On a similar note, I came across this years ago, thinking I had made a monumental discovery being that it was published in England c. 1965, which would have made it the earliest British underground comic, that is, if it wasn't comprised entirely of text, save the front cover. It turned out to be an amateur publication that covered the folk music scene (Leeds, England) of the day. I even tracked down the publisher who confirmed that no comics were ever done. I should have asked him what inspired the title!

 

 

Needless to say, I was horribly disappointed that this wasn't a comic.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Reverend

[dannyboycheapyboy]

Victor,

 

But wouldn`t the need to include items like Mr. Peanut, or other small press items by outsiders/DaDaists/primitives, follow the Kennedy tradition?

 

I do not have access to some material, because it is either too pricey, rare or I had a focus on some others areas. So I have not reviewed a lot of the following material: Hairy Who, Comic Noir, Art Police, Animal Mitchell.

 

These were listed by Kennedy and none of the artists are really underground. As far as I know, only some of the Art Police material contains some nudity and it really follows the "fine art" vein. All these materials were produced by artists, who used the "comic", either as a vehicle to display their work or to promote it.

The Poetry Comics series could have been listed by Kennedy as underground, without any argument from me. David Morice merely followed/mimicked the UG comic format to promote classic poetry in an illustrated format.

 

For whatever reason, Kennedy latched onto Snore #1 and listed it as underground. It doesn't contain any true underground material or is it really a true comic, Its the experimental output of some artists, who wanted to get their work out there.

 

If we had a magic wand and were able to contact someone from Coach House who was there at the time, and we found out that Mr. Peanut, Shoe and the other 2 "comics" were planned to be part of Snore series. Then those others should be included as such. Coach House did produce other graphic publications that are much more aligned with what an underground comic should be. But those comics were not included as part of the Snore series by the publisher. The ultimate decision should rest until the intent of CH has been established.

Edited January 4, 2017 by dannyboycheapyboy