Copper age key issues 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason.

 

I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion.

 

As a side note, I read all of those B&Ws growing up, and some of my favorite comics of all time are things like Love & rockets, Flaming Carrot & Yummy Fur. I am not looking at these with prejudice against them.

 

Matt, I'm not deriding your position, but I think if you simply look at influence (what the other generational markers hinge on. Superman, Flash, don't know the bronze aged marker), it becomes clear that TMNT 1 is the clear frontrunner. (and I think your idea that Moore's Swamp Thing run has real legs)

 

 

4 movies

3 or more cartoon series

dozens of toy lines

6+ comic book lines, and still printing currently

trades that have almost never gone out of print

large cultural influence (adjective, adjective, adjective, noun comics!!!)

 

It's clear as day to me.

 

Ehhhhhhh.....

 

I dunno if I buy this.

 

As far as the INDUSTRY is concerned, Turtles had very, very little impact after the B&W explosion imploded. Turtles have had their ups and downs, including several lapses in publishing schedule. They spent most of the 90's/2000's in the doldrums.

 

Moore'e Swamp Thing, however? Vastly, vastly influential to the industry.

 

Culturally, no doubt, Turtles is much, much bigger, no doubt. But in terms of overall impact to the industry? Moore's Swamp Thing was far reaching and cast a wide net deep AND wide amongst comics creators.

 

You can make a case that, without Moore's Swamp Thing, not only would there never have been the obvious...Vertigo, Watchmen, Hellblazer, Sandman, Preacher, Animal Man, etc.....but it's quite possible there may not have been a Hellblazer movie, a Watchmen movie, a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie, and even a Sin City and Hellboy.

 

Swamp Thing just blows Turtles out of the water as far as the industry impact goes.

 

And this is common...in many other fields, there are masters who are recognized only by others in the industry....they may even have a monstrous influence on those who ARE famous, but they may not be famous themselves, at least to the outside world.

 

They call those people a "director's director", or a "composer's composer", an "actor's actor" etc.

 

Alan Moore is a "writer's writer" and Swamp Thing is a "series's series."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sckao]

 

Note that you're talking about Alan Moore the WRITER and not Swamp Thing #21 the COMIC. (Which means that Swamp Thing #20 is more important.)

 

Is Green Lantern #76 special because it's by Neal Adam, the addition of Green Arrow, or because of its social relevance?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ogami]

RMA, all of what you wrote, I understood. Again, I am a huge Moore fan. Huge. And as I said, when I finally got around to reading ST recently, it immediately was apparent to me why it mattered. And I get that it is the start of something big. And in the long run, as far as works go, and writers go, he means more to me than most any Turtles story.

 

Which still sidesteps my point. That the Turtles, outside the industry, AND within the industry, made a bigger impact AT THE TIME (not yelling), thus earning the right, the spot at the beginning of the Copper Age.

 

It very well may be that the Turtles will slide into obscurity in the next thirty years and that Moore will become required reading accross high schools and universities across the land- that wouldn't change the fact that when TMNT 1 came out, there was a seismic shift accross the comic book world, and that that book was the start of something very big and very special. And in my opinion, (and that's all you and I are doing. Unlike the Great Whisp Debate of Aught o' Nine, this really is about perceptions of importance, and degrees of disagrement, not of type), TMNT was the more influential book and the more important book, for it's era. Now? Not so sure.

 

 

I also don't agree with your approach to impact within the industry. It is true that Moore has had more literary predessecors, (as I admitted in my first post), but it is also true that Eastman and Laird had dozens and dozens of entrepenerual predessecors (is it obvious that I can't spell pred....). You could argue that if it weren't for the rabid dog that is Dave Sim, and his oncetime buddies, E&L, that there would be no Jeff Smith, Stan Sakai... And it wasn't about actual connections with the duo, either. It was about momentum, zeitgest. payola. Those were heady days for anyone with five thousand bucks and access to printing. Or even small time buisnesscrooks with a buisness plan, sorta. (Blackthorne, anyone?) Decry it, or love it, there was a huge change after TMNT 1. Huge. Industry wide. And it wrought good and bad all throughout the industry. Many a comic shop closed because they bought too many B&W's that they couldn't sell. Many others made a killing by ordering the right titles in the right amounts. And something I didn't mention earlier, but think is applicable- how many color books began as a result of TMNT 1? There were tons of great independent color books as a result of the renewed interest in independents all directly related to the success of TMNT 1.

 

No one is slighting Alan Moore here. If you knew me better, you would understand my passion for him. I have two short boxes of comics/trades devoted to individuals. Only two. The rest of my comics are by type or genre. Of those two, Alan Moore is one. (the other is FM, and I put them in the same order as you). Nor am I slighting ST, which I am quickly falling in love with.

 

But I still think that TMNT 1 is the more important book of the two, for the reasons I've stated above.

 

 

This is my rock. Upon this, I shall build my house.

 

(I'm not looking for us to come to agreement here. I've stated my case. Let the community decide, over time, which book is worthy of the spot).

 

 

 

edit- yeah, it's antecedents.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2009 by noljoner

[Ogami]

damnit, still seeing typos as far as the eye can see. sigh. it sucks to be bright and a poor gramarian.

[Ogami]

One final point about the current vertigo books. They have become, as much as any other line, simple a genre. There are many writers under the Vertigo imprint, that I'm sure Moore would not want to be associated with. Garth Ennis immediately comes to mind. And although they have similar tastes, Morrison is a poor, angrier man's version of Mr. Moore. I have a friend who is a big Morrison fan, and he agrees with me that Morrison is the visionary that Moore is, but that he has no heart. No real soul. It's all and vinegar (and brilliance). Moore is an old soul, a real human being, and I think it's a shame actually that much of Vertigo gets laid at his feet.

 

If TMNT begat cheap knockoffs, (and it did), it must also be said that so did Frank Miller, and Alan Moore, and Jack Kirby, and...

 

 

 

i'm just rambling now. I've got a lot to do today. I do enjoy talking about comics, not just the value and condition of comics, so I look forward to your response, RMA, and everyone else.

[shiverbones]

Does it really matter in the end if swampy #20 is 1/84 & Swampy #21 is 2/84 and TMNT is also 1984, it would seem the swampies beat it time wise, so it would be easy enough to call jan. 1984 the start of the copper age.

[Ogami]

It matters only in the sense that there is typically one book chosen to usher in a new Age and/or end an old age. It may end up that the two books end up as dual first books. I don't know. Sort of like First SA Flash and FF 1.

 

Gold- Action 1

Silver- Flash / FF 1

Bronze- (?) GSX 1?

Copper- Swamp Thing 21 / TMNT 1

 

 

Of course, I still think TMNT owns the spot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to dig out my Overstreet.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Note that you're talking about Alan Moore the WRITER and not Swamp Thing #21 the COMIC. (Which means that Swamp Thing #20 is more important.)

 

If you want to say SOTST #20 is more important, that's fine, and there's a good case for that if you're just talking about "the debut of a very important writer."

 

However...just like Amazing Spiderman #300 is more important than #298 because of the STORY, rather than the ARTIST, I'm going to stick with #21 for the same basic reason.

 

It really boils down to personal taste after that...and personal taste is indisputable.

 

Is Green Lantern #76 special because it's by Neal Adam, the addition of Green Arrow, or because of its social relevance?

 

Neal Adams + "social relevance." It is, by leaps and bounds, the most important and most valuable Neal Adams book because of the story. I don't think anyone really cares that much about the addition of GA.

 

 

 

[MR.COMICBOOK]

Does it really matter in the end if swampy #20 is 1/84 & Swampy #21 is 2/84 and TMNT is also 1984, it would seem the swampies beat it time wise, so it would be easy enough to call jan. 1984 the start of the copper age.

I would say the start of the copper age is GI JOE#1 in 1982.

brought many new non-comic collectors into the market.

issue 1 and 2 both went for over 20 dollars right off the bat.

 

my second choice would be NEW TEEN TITANS #1 as it made DC respectable again and thus opened the door for Swamp Thing #20/21, without NEW TEEN TITANS #1 success who is to say DC would have took a chance with Alan Moore?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Does it really matter in the end if swampy #20 is 1/84 & Swampy #21 is 2/84 and TMNT is also 1984, it would seem the swampies beat it time wise, so it would be easy enough to call jan. 1984 the start of the copper age.

I would say the start of the copper age is GI JOE#1 in 1982.

brought many new non-comic collectors into the market.

issue 1 and 2 both went for over 20 dollars right off the bat.

 

 

my second choice would be NEW TEEN TITANS #1 as it made DC respectable again and thus opened the door for Swamp Thing #20/21, without NEW TEEN TITANS #1 success who is to say DC would have took a chance with Alan Moore?

 

Because Swamp Thing was a low selling title, already slated for cancellation.

 

There was no "chance" to take.

 

NTT #1 is Bronze Age. It came out a scant two months after X-Men #137.

 

GI Joes were not immediate hits, which is why the early issues were so very hard to find for quite some time. GI Joe started to pick up steam right after the TV series debuted in Sept 1983 as a 5 part mini, a year and a half after GI Joe #1 hit the stands in March of 1982.

[Silent Master]

Does it really matter in the end if swampy #20 is 1/84 & Swampy #21 is 2/84 and TMNT is also 1984, it would seem the swampies beat it time wise, so it would be easy enough to call jan. 1984 the start of the copper age.

I would say the start of the copper age is GI JOE#1 in 1982.

brought many new non-comic collectors into the market.

issue 1 and 2 both went for over 20 dollars right off the bat.

 

my second choice would be NEW TEEN TITANS #1 as it made DC respectable again and thus opened the door for Swamp Thing #20/21, without NEW TEEN TITANS #1 success who is to say DC would have took a chance with Alan Moore?

 

 

I'm not educated enough to have all the answers about the "copper age" but I can tell you GI Joe got me started in comic collecting back in the day! Man I worked like a crazy person mowing and anything else I could do to get my hands on those fist 15 or so I missed!

From there I went to Transformers, X-Men, X-Force, New Muties (every other mutie title in the 1980's!), Spiderman, and the list goes on! So for me GI Joe was the start of the copper age for me!

 

(I always thought is was kinda funny that the single most popular character didn't make the cut for the first issue, but he made up for it over the years)

 

I remember buying TMNT #1 because I thought the title was funny - hated it, gave it to a friend of mine who still has that copy, he still brings that up when we catch up! - oh well so much for my nose for "comic investing"!

 

You know the only DC comic I believe I ever bought was the Watchman TPB...

[MR.COMICBOOK]

Does it really matter in the end if swampy #20 is 1/84 & Swampy #21 is 2/84 and TMNT is also 1984, it would seem the swampies beat it time wise, so it would be easy enough to call jan. 1984 the start of the copper age.

I would say the start of the copper age is GI JOE#1 in 1982.

brought many new non-comic collectors into the market.

issue 1 and 2 both went for over 20 dollars right off the bat.

 

 

my second choice would be NEW TEEN TITANS #1 as it made DC respectable again and thus opened the door for Swamp Thing #20/21, without NEW TEEN TITANS #1 success who is to say DC would have took a chance with Alan Moore?

 

Because Swamp Thing was a low selling title, already slated for cancellation.

 

There was no "chance" to take.

 

NTT #1 is Bronze Age. It came out a scant two months after X-Men #137.

 

GI Joes were not immediate hits, which is why the early issues were so very hard to find for quite some time. GI Joe started to pick up steam right after the TV series debuted in Sept 1983 as a 5 part mini, a year and a half after GI Joe #1 hit the stands in March of 1982.

 

maybe the bronze age ended with X-men #137(death of Phoenix) and copper age begins two months later with NEW TEEN TITANS #1 ?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I'm not educated enough to have all the answers about the "copper age" but I can tell you GI Joe got me started in comic collecting back in the day! Man I worked like a crazy person mowing and anything else I could do to get my hands on those fist 15 or so I missed! .

 

So, you started collecting in late 1983?

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Does it really matter in the end if swampy #20 is 1/84 & Swampy #21 is 2/84 and TMNT is also 1984, it would seem the swampies beat it time wise, so it would be easy enough to call jan. 1984 the start of the copper age.

I would say the start of the copper age is GI JOE#1 in 1982.

brought many new non-comic collectors into the market.

issue 1 and 2 both went for over 20 dollars right off the bat.

 

 

my second choice would be NEW TEEN TITANS #1 as it made DC respectable again and thus opened the door for Swamp Thing #20/21, without NEW TEEN TITANS #1 success who is to say DC would have took a chance with Alan Moore?

 

Because Swamp Thing was a low selling title, already slated for cancellation.

 

There was no "chance" to take.

 

NTT #1 is Bronze Age. It came out a scant two months after X-Men #137.

 

GI Joes were not immediate hits, which is why the early issues were so very hard to find for quite some time. GI Joe started to pick up steam right after the TV series debuted in Sept 1983 as a 5 part mini, a year and a half after GI Joe #1 hit the stands in March of 1982.

 

maybe the bronze age ended with X-men #137(death of Phoenix) and copper age begins two months later with NEW TEEN TITANS #1 ?

 

No. NTT in and of itself was nowhere near important enough to usher in a whole age. Besides...1970-1980 is too short a time period for "an age."

 

If we're going to get "Ageist", we have to remember that they are delineated by a radical shift in the industry. In 1938, it was the intro of the Superhero. In 1956, it was the RE-Intro of the Superhero. In 1970, it was the greatly expanded publication of "socially relevant", "sword & sorcery", and NON-superhero comics.

 

(and if people want to argue "Golden Age was only 1938-1945, I'll argue with them that it lasted until 1955, and that the "Atom Age" has little to support it.)

[Silent Master]

 

I'm not educated enough to have all the answers about the "copper age" but I can tell you GI Joe got me started in comic collecting back in the day! Man I worked like a crazy person mowing and anything else I could do to get my hands on those fist 15 or so I missed! .

 

So, you started collecting in late 1983?

 

(thumbs u

 

Sounds about right, maybe early 1984... oh those were the days! During the summer I use to get to the comic shop early (tuesday's I think) and help the owner unload his truck with all the new books and he always gave me a free copy of my choice for helping him! What a guy!!!!

Edited June 14, 2009 by abner419

[Bosco685]

Since the Copper Age is guesstimated to have been between 1984-1992, then New Teen Titans 1 and DC Comics Presents 26 wouldn't fit the bill as they were both published in 1980.

 

Saga of the Swamp Thing 21 was published February 1984, and it did have a fairly quick impact on the market. Saga of the Swamp Thing 20, as someone already noted, was just closing out someone else's story, while 21 kicked off a whole new origin and take on a character that had languished for a long time.

 

And, it has been noted by many in the industry that Alan Moore's success laid the groundwork for DC Comics to open up to writers such as Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison to reinvent oddball characters like Sandman, The Doom Patrol, and Animal Man.

 

Saga of the Swamp Thing 21 is a very strong candidate as THE book that kicked off the Copper Age due to its level of impact on the industry.

[the blob]

Since the Copper Age is guesstimated to have been between 1984-1992, then New Teen Titans 1 and DC Comics Presents 26 wouldn't fit the bill as they were both published in 1980.

-------------------

 

this is a pretty recent development. my guess is that 6 or 7 years ago, if you look at an old OPG, it would say that CA started around 1980

[Bosco685]

Since the Copper Age is guesstimated to have been between 1984-1992, then New Teen Titans 1 and DC Comics Presents 26 wouldn't fit the bill as they were both published in 1980.

-------------------

this is a pretty recent development. my guess is that 6 or 7 years ago, if you look at an old OPG, it would say that CA started around 1980

It's actually changed a few times as we go along, which shows how confusing it can be just throwing comic periods around too freely.

 

Here is one decent discussion about how to define the comic periods based on major events like someone mentioned before

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=34&s=265&ai=44329&arch=y&ssd=10/11/2003%2012:01:00%20PM

 

Not sure if I agree Crisis On Infinite Earths is what kicked off the Copper Age, but for its time I guess it did have a major impact in trying to clean up the DC history.

 

And here is a decent mention of where Overstreet even got confused because one minute they are calling an earlier book Copper Age, and then a later book Bronze Age.

 

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Copper-Age

 

Sounds like this is getting too confusing.

[Marvelfangirl]

Hi I'm new here .I agree that Saga of Swamp Thing #21 is a key copper age book.I like to add Saga of Swamp Thing #37 in the key copper age books to get.The only key copper age books I can think of are New Mutants #87 and #98,Amazing Spider-Man #238,#239,#252,#300,Watchmen #1-12,Miracleman #1-24,and Wolverine (first ongoing series) #1 and #10.Those are the key copper age books that I know of.

[supapimp]

dazzler #1 first direct issue, start of copper age. DD 181 is another strong candidate.