Hypothesis: Pressing causes long-term damage to comics 2 2

[gpanalysis]

Oh, and PS, when are you coming to WonderCon? I've got a bottle of Quilceda Creek with your name on it if you ever make the trip. (How's that for an incentive?)

 

Thanks for the info... on the Quilceda Creek, that's an incentive and a half! Just no hanger-onners ok? That way we can get a half bottle volume each!

[tb]

I think that DCs during the Golden Age probably have the highest quality newsprint of any newsprint ever used to make a comic book. Harry Donenfeld owned the printing plant and had contacts with Canadian paper mills, so it didn't cost him as much as it cost his competitors to use a higher grade of paper.

 

That's very interesting. For other publishers, the range of papers used may be much broader. 6 years ago, I took scans of interior pages of a large number of 1930s Mickey Mouse Magazines, many of them file copies that most likely are among the best existing copies. My intention was to try to measure the decay of the paper over a longer period. I still have the books, but unfortunately my scanner died so I am not sure how to make an accurate comparison. The pictures show just a few samples. If you look very carefully at them, you will notice fairly major differences in texture and granularity. And these variations are just within one title for one publisher.

 

A couple of the samples a much brighter than the rest. These are actually from some of the earliest issues from 1935 which were printed on a very high quality paper. I have never seen any of these books with anything but white pages in superb condition.

[joeypost]

OK. Scans will follow later tonight. The book has been selected. A beater copy of Fantastic Four #123.

 

Day 1

 

Pages are still very supple and appear OW in color.

No odors, foxing or tanning to the covers.

 

 

 

Here is the page in question. I will leave it in for the equivalent of 30 pressings. Unfortunately I leave tomorrow for Heroes and I will not be able to pick the experiment back up until Sunday night.

 

[Ze-man]

Hey Joey, if I read your earlier post correctly the page is sitting on the bottom of the press. Since the top platen is the only part that gets hot in the press there will be the prepped comic between the page and heat souce at all times.

 

Are you just wanting to see what long term, repeated exposure to mild heat visibly does to newsprint?

 

I guess I am just trying to clarify the goals for the experiment.

 

[joeypost]

Hey Joey, if I read your earlier post correctly the page is sitting on the bottom of the press. Since the top platen is the only part that gets hot in the press there will be the prepped comic between the page and heat souce at all times.

 

Are you just wanting to see what long term, repeated exposure to mild heat visibly does to newsprint?

 

I guess I am just trying to clarify the goals for the experiment.

 

 

Kenny,

 

There are 2 things I am trying to accomplish.

 

1) Is prolonged exposure to heat (this page is the test subject) and is placed just under the books. It is about as close to the top platen as the bottom cover would be. So It is probably getting hit hard enough for the purpose of the test.

 

2) The rest of the book is being cut in half. Half will be pressed numerous times and the othe rhalf will not. That is the main tests. After 20 pressings I will scan both sections and post the results as well as any observations regarding the pages getting brittle, ink transfer, etc.

[Ze-man]

I think that DCs during the Golden Age probably have the highest quality newsprint of any newsprint ever used to make a comic book. Harry Donenfeld owned the printing plant and had contacts with Canadian paper mills, so it didn't cost him as much as it cost his competitors to use a higher grade of paper.

 

That's very interesting. For other publishers, the range of papers used may be much broader. 6 years ago, I took scans of interior pages of a large number of 1930s Mickey Mouse Magazines, many of them file copies that most likely are among the best existing copies. My intention was to try to measure the decay of the paper over a longer period. I still have the books, but unfortunately my scanner died so I am not sure how to make an accurate comparison. The pictures show just a few samples. If you look very carefully at them, you will notice fairly major differences in texture and granularity. And these variations are just within one title for one publisher.

 

A couple of the samples a much brighter than the rest. These are actually from some of the earliest issues from 1935 which were printed on a very high quality paper. I have never seen any of these books with anything but white pages in superb condition.

 

It really will be interesting to see if you notice different rates of breakdown under the same storage conditions. I assume the cheaper papers will deteriorate at a faster rate given all the junk they used as filler.

 

All I know is the more I work on GA books the more I notice a marked difference between the paper used within the same tile/publisher over years (war years especially.) let alone what paper different publishers used compared to another to save money. Until you try to match page quality and thickness for donor material you never realize just how different the paper can be.

 

Scott was bang on about early DC's though, they really were built like tanks inside and out compared to most same era titles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ze-man]

Hey Joey, if I read your earlier post correctly the page is sitting on the bottom of the press. Since the top platen is the only part that gets hot in the press there will be the prepped comic between the page and heat souce at all times.

 

Are you just wanting to see what long term, repeated exposure to mild heat visibly does to newsprint?

 

I guess I am just trying to clarify the goals for the experiment.

 

 

Kenny,

 

There are 2 things I am trying to accomplish.

 

1) Is prolonged exposure to heat (this page is the test subject) and is placed just under the books. It is about as close to the top platen as the bottom cover would be. So It is probably getting hit hard enough for the purpose of the test.

 

2) The rest of the book is being cut in half. Half will be pressed numerous times and the othe rhalf will not. That is the main tests. After 20 pressings I will scan both sections and post the results as well as any observations regarding the pages getting brittle, ink transfer, etc.

 

But are you going to disclose the book was pressed 20 times, and cut in half when you sell it?

 

 

Look forward to seeing the results.

 

Gotta run

[FFB]

Oh, and PS, when are you coming to WonderCon? I've got a bottle of Quilceda Creek with your name on it if you ever make the trip. (How's that for an incentive?)

 

Thanks for the info... on the Quilceda Creek, that's an incentive and a half! Just no hanger-onners ok? That way we can get a half bottle volume each!

 

Just you and me, buddy! We'll let everyone else drink boxed wine.

[FFB]

Wow, that's good to know! I haven't really seen very many Mickey Mouse magazines, so my anecdotal evidence is sparse in that area.

 

Out of curiosity, and I know this is tangential to our discussion, but what is your storage environment like for those books? And what do you store them in?

[stagedoorjohnny]

All I know is the more I work on GA books the more I notice a marked difference between the paper used within the same tile/publisher over years (war years especially.) let alone what paper different publishers used compared to another to save money. Until you try to match page quality and thickness for donor material you never realize just how different the paper can be.

 

 

That's the tricky part.

 

And that's why pressing GA books scare the living @%#$&* out of me. They're like a box of chocolates...

[stagedoorjohnny]

Scott was bang on about early DC's though, they really were built like tanks inside and out compared to most same era titles.

 

 

Were there any other publishers, from your observations, that stood out as using above average paper from a quality standpoint?

[RockMyAmadeus]

All I know is the more I work on GA books the more I notice a marked difference between the paper used within the same tile/publisher over years (war years especially.) let alone what paper different publishers used compared to another to save money. Until you try to match page quality and thickness for donor material you never realize just how different the paper can be.

 

 

That's the tricky part.

 

And that's why pressing GA books scare the living @%#$&* out of me. They're like a box of chocolates...

 

They melt when left out in the sun...?

 

[ImageMask]

There are thousands of artifacts that have been pressed (including the Declaration of Independence) that have not reverted despite the passage of decades.

 

I've been specifically looking for evidence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence being pressed and have been unable to find any. Do you recall where you heard it has been pressed?

 

The Declaration of Independence was stored rolled up for decades. It is now flat. It had to have been pressed. I am sure they didn't stick it in a dry mount press, but it was pressed nonetheless or it would still be rolled up.

 

 

The DOI "the original" was engrossed on parchment not cellulose. I am not sure where "it had to have been pressed" comes into play here as we are talking about entirely different chemical compositions.

[FFB]

There are thousands of artifacts that have been pressed (including the Declaration of Independence) that have not reverted despite the passage of decades.

 

I've been specifically looking for evidence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence being pressed and have been unable to find any. Do you recall where you heard it has been pressed?

 

The Declaration of Independence was stored rolled up for decades. It is now flat. It had to have been pressed. I am sure they didn't stick it in a dry mount press, but it was pressed nonetheless or it would still be rolled up.

 

 

The DOI "the original" was engrossed on parchment not cellulose. I am not sure where "it had to have been pressed" comes into play here as we are talking about entirely different chemical compositions.

 

I know what the engrossed copy of the Declaration of Independence was written on and I am sure I didn't say it was paper.

 

That aside, I have to ask again what is the point of your post? Are you suggesting that rolled parchment will flatten itself out without being pressed?

[bronze_rules]

There are thousands of artifacts that have been pressed (including the Declaration of Independence) that have not reverted despite the passage of decades.

 

I've been specifically looking for evidence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence being pressed and have been unable to find any. Do you recall where you heard it has been pressed?

 

The Declaration of Independence was stored rolled up for decades. It is now flat. It had to have been pressed. I am sure they didn't stick it in a dry mount press, but it was pressed nonetheless or it would still be rolled up.

 

 

The DOI "the original" was engrossed on parchment not cellulose. I am not sure where "it had to have been pressed" comes into play here as we are talking about entirely different chemical compositions.

 

I know what the engrossed copy of the Declaration of Independence was written on and I am sure I didn't say it was paper.

 

That aside, I have to ask again what is the point of your post? Are you suggesting that rolled parchment will flatten itself out without being pressed?

 

The DOI was often framed and sandwiched between heavy glass plated frames in its various locations (natural pressing?).

Early on, at one point they used a wet press to make copies, and found that it damaged the original by absorbing ink. So it was pressed in the sense of the above, although not explicitly as a preservation step with heat and or h20. There was one point where they even used regular scotch tape to restore a fragment that became detached.

I doubt any comic will ever get the kind of conservation treatment that DOI enjoyed from the 50s up at the LOC (in a controlled temperature chamber with helium gas constantly fed and leak detectors).

[ImageMask]

There are thousands of artifacts that have been pressed (including the Declaration of Independence) that have not reverted despite the passage of decades.

 

I've been specifically looking for evidence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence being pressed and have been unable to find any. Do you recall where you heard it has been pressed?

 

The Declaration of Independence was stored rolled up for decades. It is now flat. It had to have been pressed. I am sure they didn't stick it in a dry mount press, but it was pressed nonetheless or it would still be rolled up.

 

 

The DOI "the original" was engrossed on parchment not cellulose. I am not sure where "it had to have been pressed" comes into play here as we are talking about entirely different chemical compositions.

 

I know what the engrossed copy of the Declaration of Independence was written on and I am sure I didn't say it was paper.

 

That aside, I have to ask again what is the point of your post? Are you suggesting that rolled parchment will flatten itself out without being pressed?

 

 

 

I can't pretend to play this game any longer. Yeah , i am gonna say that rolled parchment will flatten it self out without being pressed....if u know the game. but celllulose is just glucose with beta 1,4 linkages

[ImageMask]

I think the bug a boo cuming in that hooooo ...Lmao...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slym2none]

Maybe these tests being done could involve a book that was cut into thirds - part 1 is the control, part two is pressed once, and part 3 is pressed numerous times.

 

 

 

 

-slym (is really enjoying reading this thread)

[ImageMask]

There are thousands of artifacts that have been pressed (including the Declaration of Independence) that have not reverted despite the passage of decades.

 

I've been specifically looking for evidence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence being pressed and have been unable to find any. Do you recall where you heard it has been pressed?

 

The Declaration of Independence was stored rolled up for decades. It is now flat. It had to have been pressed. I am sure they didn't stick it in a dry mount press, but it was pressed nonetheless or it would still be rolled up.

 

 

The DOI "the original" was engrossed on parchment not cellulose. I am not sure where "it had to have been pressed" comes into play here as we are talking about entirely different chemical compositions.

 

I know what the engrossed copy of the Declaration of Independence was written on and I am sure I didn't say it was paper.

 

That aside, I have to ask again what is the point of your post? Are you suggesting that rolled parchment will flatten itself out without being pressed?

 

 

I dont need to "suggest" a thing. My folded Sunday paper will flatten out, if the temp and humidity is just right, even without pressure.

[tb]

Thanks for your support, buttock.

 

I found an old Nedor funny animal (have no recollection of where I got it from) that I'd feel comfortable experimenting with. I was thinking of trying to bake the individual pages for different durations and then see if the bend-test works at all. If it does, a next step could be to gather a sample of books and send them to FFB for cutting and pressing.

 

I am sure lots of people will be laughing if this doesn't work. All I am saying is this is the best _I_ can think of, and as of yet I have not seen any alternative suggestions. I will be very busy over the next few days so there is plenty of time to contribute ideas before my Nedor gets baked.

 

 

tb,

 

Don't go sticking the Nedor into the Viking oven at home just yet. The aging ovens used to conduct these tests are special pieces of equipment that are temperature and humidity controlled. If we're going to destroy books, let's do it properly, in the name of science!

 

Since a few people expressed interest in this, I decided to sacrifice a few tedious hours on trying the bending experiment that I had read about. This is about as low tech as it gets: I found two very worn Mickey Mouse Magazines from the late 1930s: one with brittle pages and one with cream pages. I picked books with relatively bad pages to avoid the need for an aging oven. I then cut the books in half, removed the staples, and folded each sheet of paper around the spine until it broke. I tried to do the folding as carefully and uniformly as possible, but, obviously, significant variations in the numbers are to be expected. My hope was that the results would fall into a sufficiently narrow range that any significant difference between pressed and unpressed books would show up given a sufficiently high number of samples. None of these samples were pressed: I did this only to get an idea of whether it would make sense to proceed with the cutting-in-half experiment that FFB suggested.

 

The first book was so brittle that only one interior wrap was usable:

Upper half: 79 folds

Lower half: 72 folds

 

For the second book, I tried 5 interior wraps.

Page 1: Upper: 164 Lower: 239

Page 2: Upper: 339 Lower: 297

Page 3: Upper: 315 Lower: 374

Page 4: Upper: 299 Lower: 180

Page 5: Upper: 212 Lower: 271

 

Though these only are preliminary results, my own conclusion is that this brain dead technique, which everyone with enough patience can perform at home with no fancy equipment, just might be able to detect whether pressing a Golden Age book causes measurable damage to the spine. It would take a large number of samples, though.

 

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, FFB?

Edited June 20, 2009 by tb