Invincible 1st app question/debate
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Hi all,

 

I'm new to the boards, but have been into comics for the better part of 20+ years. Like a lot of people I collect a good number of Kirkman books. Walking Dead, Invincible, Marvel Zombies and more.

 

A question I've been pondering about Invincible, and I'm new to these boards so there's a good chance that this has been covered. If so, plmk.

 

1st appearances are usually considered the 1st full appearance and not cameo's, or at least a distinction is made with the 1st full being the more desirable. Now with Previews of other books in the back of popular books to increase sales/interest, would that be considered a first appearance?

 

So Noble Causes Family Secrets #3 is accepted as the first appearance, albeit a cameo. Invincible #1 being the first full appearance. There's been a guy on ebay trying to sell a Masters of the Universe by Image as the first appearance. Robert Kirkman is quoted as saying Tech Jacket 1 is the first appearance.

 

Turns out that I've found 3 different books that had an Invincible Preview although I haven't been able to get exact dates when they came out. MOTU 1, Tech Jacket 1, and Savage Dragon 102. There may be others that I'm unaware of. One other interesting tidbit is that there are about 5 or 6 different variants of MOTU 1.

 

Now for arguments sake...Walking Dead 61 is considered the 1st app of Chew. And it's a preview.

 

Would there be any real debate as to the 1st appearance, or just accept NC:FS3?

 

Please let me know your thoughts.

 

Steven

 

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I consider NC:FS 3 the cameo and Invincible #1 the First appearance.

 

I have MOTU 1, Tech Jacket 1 and SD 102 just because they all have the preview, but they are nothing more than previews.

 

Prices on the book now and in the past concur with the above:

 

MOTU 1, Tech Jacket 1, SD 102 are all $1 books even though they are "previews".

 

NC:FS 3 $15 - $30 cameo

 

Invincible 1 $75-100+

 

 

My question is how many copies of the Larry's variant do you all think are out there. I know that the print run was supposedly 1K, but it certainly seems like there are many more than that out there.

Edited by 400yrs

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I'm not found of all the cameos and previews getting so much attention lately.

 

To me, the 1st full appearance is where it's at:

 

Invincible #1

Next Men #21

Goon #1 Avatar Volume

etc

 

Pat

 

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Thanks for the input, I prefer to think of Invincible 1 as his first appearance and NCFS3 as a novelty cameo that was a mistake due to release delays. I find it interesting though with the previews in the back of comics such as the walking dead and chew connection. WD 61 will always be second fiddle to Chew 1, but I do find it interesting what's accepted in the comics community. Like the 1st spidey black costume argument. And I just noticed that Sabretooth is technically in Iron Fist 13 (it's a stretch, but some know what I mean).

 

I'd just as soon see WD 61 not be touted, or on the flip side have MOTU 1/TJ 1/SD 102 put in the mix. You can't really have it both ways for consistencies sake. BTW, I also have those 3 books and TJ 1 has a preview of the 1st issue and the other 2 have a preview of the 2nd issue I believe.

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Now for arguments sake...Walking Dead 61 is considered the 1st app of Chew. And it's a preview.

 

CGC doesn't consider WD #61 the 1st appearance of Chew - it's just labelled as "5 page preview".

 

I have no problem with cameos, etc, being considered the 1st appearances - because, technically, that's what they are - but a preview in a non-related book is a different beast altogether.

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Now for arguments sake...Walking Dead 61 is considered the 1st app of Chew. And it's a preview.

 

CGC doesn't consider WD #61 the 1st appearance of Chew - it's just labelled as "5 page preview".

 

I have no problem with cameos, etc, being considered the 1st appearances - because, technically, that's what they are - but a preview in a non-related book is a different beast altogether.

 

In terms of cgc I certainly agree. There's just been more hype in terms of interest and value attributed to WD 61 due to the connection. And whether we like it or not, some people are considering it or at least trying to sell it as the 1st app. Of course it's much less expensive than Chew 1. Most of the later WD issues aren't as valuable or being sold above cover, that's the distinction I'm drawing. Whereas the Invincible previews aren't garnering any interest, WD61 has.

 

Oh, and I think I know you neighbor! Rockford's little con a few months back? I'll im ya. I got a couple of books you may like.

 

Steven

 

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I'm not found of all the cameos and previews getting so much attention lately.

 

To me, the 1st full appearance is where it's at:

 

Next Men #21

 

Pat

I'd agree with you Pat if San Diego Comic-Con Comic 2 was a preview book. It is the 1st full appearance of Hellboy in a stand-alone 4-page story.

 

SDCC 2 1st appearance of Hellboy

 

John Byrne's Next Men 21 noted as NOT the 1st appearance

 

I think CGC decided to list Next Men 21 as the 1st appearance because it was the 1st major title with Hellboy in the issue. Makes no sense, though.

 

This info comes from Hellboy.com, the official website for Mike Mignola's HELLBOY.

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We also have the TMNT debate....I don't think this is something that we can clarify with one set of rules. People treat each character/appearance differently and many people are just not aware of previews and things like that until well after they gain some notoriety.

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We also have the TMNT debate....I don't think this is something that we can clarify with one set of rules. People treat each character/appearance differently and many people are just not aware of previews and things like that until well after they gain some notoriety.

 

Isn't that where they were on the back cover of gobbledygook or something like that?

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We also have the TMNT debate....I don't think this is something that we can clarify with one set of rules. People treat each character/appearance differently and many people are just not aware of previews and things like that until well after they gain some notoriety.

 

Isn't that where they were on the back cover of gobbledygook or something like that?

 

It's a back cover ad for the turtles - claiming that that's the first appearance of the turtles is just as silly as claiming the books that have ads for Action Comics #1 are, in fact, the first appearance of Superman. :sumo:

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We also have the TMNT debate....I don't think this is something that we can clarify with one set of rules. People treat each character/appearance differently and many people are just not aware of previews and things like that until well after they gain some notoriety.

 

Isn't that where they were on the back cover of gobbledygook or something like that?

 

It's a back cover ad for the turtles - claiming that that's the first appearance of the turtles is just as silly as claiming the books that have ads for Action Comics #1 are, in fact, the first appearance of Superman. :sumo:

Or Iron Fist 13 is the "true" first appearance of Wolverine and Sabertooth because they are both shown in upcoming issue ads. Or Starslayer 1 being the 1st appearance of Dave Stevens' Rocketeer because the back cover has a promo ad for the next issue (the true 1st appearance).

 

That's just folks trying to create a quick-buck fad, IMHO.

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Yep. The first story is the true 1st appearance. The rest is just hype.

 

 

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Seems pretty settled, and lines up with the values/prices they usually command. Thanks for the thoughts, and I'm sure completists (sp?) will track down all the peripheral books regardless.

 

Enjoy your Friday night-

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The original poster brings up an excellent point and something I have wondered myself. How do the Invincible previews differ from a Web of Spider-man 18?

Or is that an accurate comparision?

 

I wouldnt have a problem claiming the MOTU or SD 102 were 1st previews of Invincibles without dispute and I think if Invincible continues to climb these books will see an adjustment eventually. I understand the OPs frustration. Anyone got a MOTU or SD102 slabbed yet?

 

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Here's the preview from Tech Jacket #1. It's a 6 page preview. Tech Jacket #1 also has an add for Noble Causes #3. Tech Jacket #1 was released the first week of November in 2002. When was MOTU #1 relased? Does it also have a 6 page preview for Invincible #1? Savage Dragon #102 was released the same week as Noble Causes #3. So Tech Jacket #1 came out before Noble Causes #3 and Savage Dragon #102.

 

Page 1

Picture714.jpg

 

Page 2

Picture715.jpg

 

Page 3

Picture716.jpg

 

Page 4

Picture717.jpg

 

Page 5

Picture718.jpg

 

Page 6

Picture719.jpg

 

Add for Noble Causes #3

Picture720.jpg

 

 

According to Diamonds shipping data back in Dec 2002. Savage Dragon #102 came out the same week as Noble Causes #3. Here's the link from Diamonds shipping archive for that week.

 

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/120402.txt

 

 

Thanks,

Wil

Edited by wilblas

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I have my copy of MOTU 1 Graham Cracker Variant in front of me here. It lists on the indicia as November of 2002. I dont know when it released though. It has the same 6 Page preview in it.

 

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Here are the actual dates of the previews in question with the diamond link:

 

Tech-Jacket #1 came out 11/20/02

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/112002.txt

 

FSNC #3 and Savage Dragon #102 came out 12/04/02

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/120402.txt

 

MoTU #1 came out 12/11/02

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/121102.txt

 

So if you count previews as 1st appearances TJ #1 would be the 1st app. It beats SD #102 by 1 week, and MoTU #1 by 2 weeks.

 

FSNC #3 is definitely just a cameo, since he's only in 1 small panel which is a headshot. He has another headshot on one of the 2 covers. Plus, he appears in the wrong colors for his costume, as it was changed before Invincible #1 came out.

 

1st FULL appearance (not counting Previews) is Invincible #1.

 

However, this has only recently been recognized by CGC. You can still find copies of FSNC #3 with "1st appearance of Invincible" on the label and copies of Invincible #1 with nothing. Nowadays, they have switched to adding "cameo" to FSNC and "1st full appearance" to Invincible #1.

 

Yup, lots of confusion on this one. :insane:

 

So just decide for yourself and run with it.

Edited by maloney414

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Also, here is the part of the interview with Kirkman about this topic. Direct link below as well.

 

You know, technically, Invincible first appeared in Noble Causes: Family Secrets #3.

KIRKMAN: Technically, I guess.

 

How does that work? What's the secret origin of Invincible?

KIRKMAN: Well, the book was very much in production long before that issue of Noble Causes was done. I think the first issue was completely done. Just as a fun thing, Jay had a story going on in Noble Causes about Rusty Noble trying to find out who was the father of his sister's baby. It was just a little one panel gag where Rusty went out and was asking everyone in the Image universe if they got Zephyr pregnant. It's really just a one panel gag of Invincible saying, "Nope. Wasn't me." It technically shipped before the first issue. I will say that first five pages of Invincible #1 was printed in the back of Tech-Jacket #1, which shipped before Noble Causes. So if you want to count that…

 

Then that should be the first his first appearance. I mean, the Ninja Turtles first appeared on the back cover of a comic in an ad, and now that issue is worth a grand.

KIRKMAN: Wow. I didn't know that. Then, yeah! Tech-Jacket #1!

 

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/060308imagespotlight.html

 

 

 

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My head hurts. :insane:

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Here are the actual dates of the previews in question with the diamond link:

 

Tech-Jacket #1 came out 11/20/02

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/112002.txt

 

FSNC #3 and Savage Dragon #102 came out 12/04/02

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/120402.txt

 

MoTU #1 came out 12/11/02

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/archive/2002/121102.txt

 

So if you count previews as 1st appearances TJ #1 would be the 1st app. It beats SD #102 by 1 week, and MoTU #1 by 2 weeks.

 

FSNC #3 is definitely just a cameo, since he's only in 1 small panel which is a headshot. He has another headshot on one of the 2 covers. Plus, he appears in the wrong colors for his costume, as it was changed before Invincible #1 came out.

 

1st FULL appearance (not counting Previews) is Invincible #1.

 

However, this has only recently been recognized by CGC. You can still find copies of FSNC #3 with "1st appearance of Invincible" on the label and copies of Invincible #1 with nothing. Nowadays, they have switched to adding "cameo" to FSNC and "1st full appearance" to Invincible #1.

 

Yup, lots of confusion on this one. :insane:

 

So just decide for yourself and run with it.

 

You pretty much cleared it up here for me anyways. I will be slowly stocking up on SD102 and Tech Jacket I think. Heck what do you have to lose for buying a book at $1 anyway. FSNC's value will eventually fall some I think. At least in my eyes it should.

 

The questions left unanswered will be how CGC applies a label to Tech Jacket and SD 102.

 

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