High grade FF Thread

[FlyingDonut]

Fantastic Four

1: Introduction of the FF, first Marvel book Major Marvel key

2: Introduction of the Skrulls, mid-Marvel villain for the rest of the Marvel age

3: Costumes

4: Re-introduction of the Sub-Mariner. Major Marvel key

5: Introduction of Dr. Doom, the classic Marvel villain Major Marvel key

6: Sub-Mariner/Dr. Doom team up, first villain team up Major Marvel key

7. Introduction of Kurggo

8: Introduction of the Puppet Master and Alicia Masters

9: Third Sub-Mariner appearance

10: Third Dr. Doom appearance

11: Introduction of the Impossible Man, also the "Sue Doesn't Suck" story. Major Marvel key

12: Battles the Hulk, first Marvel crossover Major Marvel key (also, just as an aside, the most undervalued Silver Age Marvel

13: Introduction of the Red Ghost and the Watcher

14: Sub-Mariner appearance

15: Introduction of the Mad-Thinker

16: First Ant-Man crossover, Dr. Doom battle

17: Dr. Doom battle

18: Introduction the Super-Skrull

19: Introduction Rama-Tut (Kang)

20: Introduction the Molecule Man Major Marvel key

21: Introduction the Hate Monger, 1st Sgt. Fury crossover

22: Mole Man

23: Dr. Doom battle

24: The Infant Terrible (or, as we always called it, the Terrible FF story)

25: Hulk vs. Thing battle, 2nd Silver Age Captain America Major Marvel key

26: Hulk vs. Thing battle Major Marvel key

27: 1st Dr. Strange Crossover

28: X-Men crossover

29: Watcher

30: Introduction Diablo

 

Amazing Spider-Man

1: Fantastic Four crossover Major Marvel key

2: Intro the Vulture Major Marvel key

3: Intro Dr. Octopus Major Marvel key

4: Intro the Sandman

5: Dr. Doom crossover

6: Intro the Lizard Major Marvel key

7: Vulture

8: "Salute to Teenagers"

9: Intro Elektro

10: Intro the Enforcers

11: Dr. Octopus

12: Dr. Octopus, unmasked

13: Intro Mysterio

14: Intro the Green Goblin, Hulk Major Marvel key

15: Intro Kraven Major Marvel key

16: Daredevil crossover

17: Green Goblin Major Marvel key

18: Sandman

19: Spidery Strikes Back

20: Intro the Scorpion

21: Human Torch and the Beetle

22: Ringmaster

23: Green Goblin

24: Crazyness!

25: Spider-Slayer, First Mary Jane Watson Major Marvel key

26: Goblin

27: Goblin

28: Molten Man Major Marvel key

29: Scorpion

30: Cat

 

Major Marvel key

Fantastic Four 9 of 30

Amazing Spider-Man 9 of 30

 

 

[COI]

I wouldn't call ASM #15, 17 or 28 "Major keys".

 

Kraven is no more major than Sandman, Electro or Mysterio.

 

Even though #17 is G.G second appearance, I would say #39 and #40 are more significant to the essence of the character.

 

#28 isn't so much key as it is highly sought after and tough in high grade.

 

 

[COI]

Not to mention the fact that most of Spidey's major keys mostly affect his book only, while many of the FF keys encompass the whole Marvel Universe.

[blowout]

there is no disputing that the ff were the prime influence on the silver age (60's).

my argument is that spider-man has had a greater long-term influence, and thats is ultimately why spidey will always win over the ff in the end.

can anyone name an important ff book since 52? and thats 35 years ago now.

the ff just have not stood the test of time.

 

[murph0]

If we are considering the "molecule man", "impossible man", and the 2nd part of a hulk/thing battle major keys..it stands to reason the first appearance of Mysterio should easily be considered a key, as well as the intro of the Sandman (which btw, is beyond me why you don't consider it to be a major key? He was a HUGE character for Marvel between 60-80)

 

Brian

[murph0]

Other then some of them having their own books and occasionally guest starring..I don't see many effecting the whole marvel universe. Dr. Doom, occasionally maybe..rarely see Sub-mariner outside of FF or his own crappy title. The same argument could be used for characters such as Mysterio, Sandman, G.G., Vulture..who did appear occasionally outside of the ASM books in the 60's and 70's b4 Marvel decided to kill them and revive them 9 million times.

 

Brian

[PovertyRow]

Thanks for ignoring my ideas, Murph. You make what you think is a major point and I talk against it... but....wait - oh yeah - I am one of those Atom Age collectors...we know effluence about the later ages.

[blowout]

"We are talking about anti-heroes in the 70's. And Punisher was definitely a late-comer to the foray"

 

pov, you are probably correct when you say that the punisher was a slight late-comer as far as the anti-hero goes. but he is IMHO the 'definitive' anti-hero, and the only one that most people can realate to (ie he doesn't wear a loincloth or have a flaming head). and he was certainly the most influencial anti-hero in the 80's and 90'.

[Mister_Comics]

The Fantastic Four and ASM both were great during their 1st volume. After that they weren't the same. Spider-Man is more popular then the FF now only because of the movie. The FF have been on cartoons as well as Spidey so they've both been in the public eye. They are both known. One more then the other maybe, but both known. I'd bet if there ever was a FF movie, and if it was a decent movie, like Spider-Man, they'd be just as popular. A lot of fans of the FF are still out there.

[PovertyRow]

pov, you are probably correct when you say that the punisher was a slight late-comer as far as the anti-hero goes. but he is IMHO the 'definitive' anti-hero, and the only one that most people can realate to (ie he doesn't wear a loincloth or have a flaming head). and he was certainly the most influencial anti-hero in the 80's and 90'.

 

You have brought up a totally different argument. We are now discussing firsts and provenance and influences. If books like GR and Drac and WBN and ST and MT etc were not around first (not to mention Conan) Punisher probably would not have been created.. Except for Swamp Thing, who had his origins in the GA Airboy, all of these were Marvel anti-heroes who set the way for the later ones. Even Ben Grim could be considered an anti-heroe in a way. And certainly a precursor to Spidey because he was the first with the angst-cause-I-am-no-longer-what-I-was.

[murph0]

Since I'm bored..

 

Amazing Spider-man

31 1st App Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy and Prof Warren Semi-key ASM only

32 Spidey rampage, Doc Ock appearance

33 Doc Ock appearance, classic Spidey story

34 4th app Kraven

35 2nd app Molten Man

36 1st Looter

37 Intro Norman Osborn Maybe semi-key?

38 Last Ditko, 2nd app MJ cameo Maybe semi-key based on Ditko last book

39 G.G identity revealed, 2nd Romita Semi-key

40 Origin G.G. Key

41 1st App Rhino Key

42 3rd app MJ face shown Key

43 2nd app Rhino

44 2nd App Lizard

45 3rd App Lizard

46 First App Shocker ASM-only Key

47 3rd? Kraven app

48 Vulture app

49 Vulture/Kraven apps

50 Intro Kingpin, CLASSIC cover KEY

51 2nd app Kingpin

52 1st App Joe Robertson 3rd app Kingpin

53 Dr Ock app

54 Dr Ock app

55 Dr Ock app

56 Dr Ock app 1st app Capt Stacy

57 Ka-zar App

58 JJJ robot (early Spiderslayer?)

59 1st cover MJ ASM-only semi-key

60 Kingpin app

61 Mysterio app? Can't remember

62 Medusa app

63 Lame 2 Vultures story

64 Vulture app

65 BLAH

66 Mysterio app

67 1st Randy Robertson (oh boy) Mysterio app

68 Kingpin app

69 Kingpin app

70 Kingpin app

71 Quiksilver app

72 Shocker app

73 1st app Silverman, app Mountain Man Marko (major tool)

74 Cool cover, last 12 cent issue

75 Death of someone not important

76 Lizard app

77 Lizard/Human Torch apps

78 1st app Prowler Minor Marvel semi-key

79 Prowler app

80 Chameleon app

81 Intro Kangaroo (even lamer then Mountain Man Marko)

82 Electro app

83 1st Schemer and Kingpin's wife

84 Kingpin app

85 Kingpin app

86 Black Widow new costume

87 BLAH

88 Doc Ock app (kinda)

89 Doc Ock app

90 Death Capt Stacy, start of anti-Spidey stuff ASM only semi-key

91

92 Iceman app

93 Prowler app, 1st Arthur Stacy

94 Origin Spiderman Semi-key to Key

95

96 No CCA, G.G. app Marvel Key

97 No CCA, G.G. app Marvel Key

98 No CCA, G.G. app Marvel Key

99

100 Anniversary iss ASM-only semi-key

 

Enjoy

 

Brian

[blowout]

"If books like GR and Drac and WBN and ST and MT etc were not around first (not to mention Conan) Punisher probably would not have been created."

 

if we are going to start bringing this kind of reasoning into play, then there are many characters that were precursors to the ff.

the characters you refer to were NOT in my opinion any influence on the creation of the punisher. the punisher is a character referenced much more closely to real life than any of the fantasy characters you are talking about.

the punisher was the first gritty, reality based anti-hero.

[murph0]

Do you think they decided to make an ASM movie by accident? There was obviously more of a following..issue sales also show Spiderman as more of a mover then FF was even long before the movie. Honestly, think about this..prior to the movie if you asked someone off the street who they've heard of between..ok let's say..Mr Fantastic and Spider-man..who would this random person say on the average? Hell I'm even confident that if you asked them to name ONE character from the Marvel Universe the standard reply 50 percent of the time would Spiderman.

 

Brian

[murph0]

Hey settle down Mr. Snipy. I don't think you could possibly define ToD as an anti-hero..Dracula was a horror book pure and simple, no heroism. I've never read WbN books except for 32, so I don't know the extent of what exactly he did..but if he's a hero, it certainly isn't a conventional method of presenting one..a werewolf??

 

Brian

[PovertyRow]

if we are going to start bringing this kind of reasoning into play, then there are many characters that were precursors to the ff.

 

Yes, there were. Airboy Comics was one. Eisner's Spirit was another. And many more.

 

But you brought the reasoning into play when you elected to use Punisher as a precident for apparantly Bronze Age...which he is not. And I will ask again...if books like Conan, Werewolf by Night, Frankenstein, Mobius, Ghost Rider, Swamp Thing, Man-Thing in the same age had not been published, do you really think that Punisher would have been? In the Bronze age? (and I think we can all agree that SM 129 was BA book??)

 

[blowout]

"if books like Conan, Werewolf by Night, Frankenstein, Mobius, Ghost Rider, Swamp Thing, Man-Thing in the same age had not been published, do you really think that Punisher would have been?"

 

yes, see my above answer.

 

and just in case we lose sight of the topic at hand here, i was using the punisher as an example of how the ASM book has conitinued spider-mans influence beyond that of the fantastic four. all the books you bring up TOD, WBN, MT etc were all seventies books. the punisher however had a much greater impact throughout the 80's and 90's and still has a published comic today, how many of the characters from the ff book still have titles today?

the punisher was not an isolated bronze age character.

[fantastic_four]

The early FFs aren't nearly as popular as the early Spideys, but they're still undervalued because they're MUCH harder to find. Throw out the price guide on early FFs, because if you see one in 9.0 or better and don't jump on it, don't be suprised if you don't see one again for another year or three.

 

I like Spidey as a character more than the FF, but it's a lot more special to find high-grade FFs. If an early Spidey pops up on E-Bay, then it's no biggie if you don't get it; most issues pop up at least every few months with the exception of a few such as #11. But when an early FF pops up--whooo, boy! It's like a holiday! Although most holidays occur more frequently than certain high grade FFs hitting the open market.

[aardvark88]

Marvel (Sony?) released X-men 1 movie b4 ASM 1 movie. Don't think it would be that difficult to produce a FF major motion picture. They have already proven the numerous special f-x are possible on a budget for a TEAM of superheroes w/ X-men, Magneto & Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

[FlComicFan]

Spidey is more popular, FF the more important title. FF introduced a ton of characters who later were all over the Marvel Universe. Spider-Man as a title created its own Universe filled with great villains and supporting characters. Both great titles but Spidey was marketed more with the tv series, the cartoons, toys etc and of course the big budget film. Spider-Man is marvels best known character and the most highly collected book. If Marvel would have put some better talent on FF after Lee/Kirby left it might me more equal in popularity. Other than the Byrne FF's and some of the low 100's issues with Buscema art most of the later issues really suck. If I had a choice between owning Spider-Man 1-100 and FF 1-100 in high grade I'd choose the FF simply because my opinion is they are undervalued compared to Spidey. But luckily I dont have to choose I have them all in those great Marvel Essentials reprints which I hope Marvel will continue and DC would do something similiar! Have a great Thanksgiving weekend everyone, Chet

[jimjum12]

i hope i don't make any of you angry,but i am fascinated by BOTH titles,and to be honest with you,i see no real grounds for comparison.it would be like saying an orange isn't as good of an apple as an apple is.ASM is all about mystery and human interest while the F.F. has always been so cosmic.spidey definitely has a more accessible interface for the regular joe and that has given him a great deal of mass appeal.i would definitely have to say that it was the F.F.,however,that made the "marvel universe" possible.that book set such a grand stage.and when you're talking scarcity in grade,the early f.f.'s make their spidey counterparts seem about as scarce as a mote of dust.i lucked into a BIN auction for a 9.0 cgc f.f. #20

a while back and snagged it.all of the first 30 are very tough in grade.i used to work at a comic store and on the convention circuit and most of the original owner collections we saw almost always had the f.f.'s in the lowest grades.try to find a 9.0 #15-23.the 18 is VERY tough.i just lost out on a 8.0 #18 because my money order got lost in the mail.what a DRAG.i do have to agree with brian about spidey's popularity.it wouldn't surprise me if spidey becomes the most widely known superheroe of the 20th century.spidey set the stage for the misunderstood loner type of heroe that we see signs of all over the place today.the f.f. ,however ,were a team that overcame their differences and really shined.the popular culture of today could desperately use an infusion of that principle today.an f.f. movie introducing galactus,the silver surfer ,and the watcher could be most impressive.GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)