Why Pressing ISN'T Restoration 2 2

[blowout]

All I want to see is FULL DISCLOSURE of any process that has been carried out.

 

I hear ya man, but I don't think its gonna happen, since a given comic's heritage has already been lost (except for maybe a pedigree that could be tracked from owner to owner).

 

Even if a seller says 'NO PRESSING', he doesn't know what the previous 10 owners have done to it. CGC not recognizing it, and the trouble with even detecting it.

 

Good luck there. I'd rather wish for world peace--it's more likely to happen

 

Thats a good point, but disclosure has to start somewhere. We can't do much about the past, but hopefully we can fix these problems in the future.

[sterlingcomics]

Thats a good point, but disclosure has to start somewhere. We can't do much about the past, but hopefully we can fix these problems in the future.

 

And I see your point as well, but if the information isn't valid... it's going to be a futile effort. This scenario assumes detection of the process can be conclusive and the industry as a whole to recognize the process of pressing formally. Right now, it's a dirty little secret...

[Red Hook]

I wouldn't call it a secret anymore.......

[garthgantu]

The important thing to my mind is whether the book's condition was improved as a result of some outside action.

 

I don't even care about that, let people improve their books all they want.

All I want to see is FULL DISCLOSURE of any process that has been carried out. Then let the potential buyer decide whether or not they can live with it.

 

How are you going to get full disclosure without full detection ? And when will we have that? (A: never) I like the idea of striving for full disclosure tho

[garthgantu]

As I have stated many times:

 

I only consider a book to be restored if some material has been added to or subtract from a book.

 

Since pressing doesn't do either one of these thing, then by my standards it's not restoration (and honestly no one will change my mind).

 

 

But Sfilosa: setting aside the question of whether this pressing that's happening is "restoration," in any sense of the word, what about the effect on the market of hundreds or thousands or eventually perhaps tens of thousands of books that weren't high grade at one point in their existence, and have now attained high grade again?

 

I for one am looking at almost all high grade books - with admittedly plenty of exceptions, especially among rare/scarce GA and Atom Age books - as having slightly less "luster," if you will... sure, there may only be two high grade copies in the census today, but suddenly that doesn't really guarantee there won't be six in the census next year, and twelve the year after that. Of course, the census is a pretty inaccurate gauge anyway....substitute "on the market" for "in the census" for a more appropriate description...

[garthgantu]

Go for it. Best of luck to you. Hope you don't get any books with "undisclosed pressing".

 

Brian

 

Murph, was your mirth feigned here? I think the question of whether people are pressing books with no intention of slabbing them is a fascinating one...

 

I'll own up to 'pressing' one book - an Uncle Scrooge in the teens (#15 ?) that was in decent shape (maybe a FN/FN+) except for a fairly massive spine roll. I placed it under ~30 lbs of oversized books for a month or so, and it looked a whole lot better at first, but started to "revert" slightly after just a couple of hours. How well it's holding up now I have no idea - this was a year ago.

 

My points being that I don't think many kinds of "amateur" pressing really work very well, and I don't think people are sending their books off to "professional" pressing services unless their intending to get them slabbed - partly so that if the pressing does revert, you've at least got it tightly sealed to prevent much of this and you've got a grade on the book no matter how far it might "revert," right?

 

Does anyone know anyone who has gotten books pressed and then simply placed them, raw, back in their collection? I'm talking in the past 4 years or so, since slabbing became an option...

[Murph]

It doesn't necessarily mean you have to press to NOT sell them. I was speaking more about the fact that you don't have to slab a book to sell it. Raw books move all the time, are these just as likely to be pressed as CGC ones? I think so. It's the same idea; maximize grade, maximize money.

 

Brian

[PovertyRow]

The important thing to my mind is whether the book's condition was improved as a result of some outside action.

 

I don't even care about that, let people improve their books all they want.

All I want to see is FULL DISCLOSURE of any process that has been carried out. Then let the potential buyer decide whether or not they can live with it.

 

Excellent! Most excellent!

[joe_collector]

Raw books move all the time, are these just as likely to be pressed as CGC ones? I think so. It's the same idea; maximize grade, maximize money.

 

I totally disagree with this statement, as it ignores the real reason why pressing is being so rampant: If you can get even a 0.2 CGC grade increase on a high-end book, that can potentially mean thousands of dollars in your pocket.

 

Now let's take the same scenario with a raw book. You originally grade it a NM 9.4 and then press it into what you feel is a NM+ 9.6. Now do you really believe that selling it raw on EBay will increase the value thousands of dollars? I don't think the end price would move at all, as a raw NM is a raw NM, assuming a legit dealer, and all that time, money and effort would be wasted on a raw comic. In fact, most buyers wouldn't trust the NM grade, let alone a NM+ raw designation.

 

Now contrast that with the spike in value from a AF 15 CGC 9.4 pressed to a CGC 9.6 resub and the financial windfall it presents. Pressing and other "non-detectable by CGC" restorative techniques follow the money, and those kinds of "press and win" returns are ONLY available on the CGC side of the equation.

 

Now I'm not saying that raw books do not get pressed, only to say they are "as likely" to get pressed as CGC books is ludicrous. There is little profit in pressing raw books, as opposed to using pressing to get even a slightly higher CGC grade.

[awe4one]

Now I'm not saying that raw books do not get pressed, only to say they are "as likely" to get pressed as CGC books is ludicrous. There is little profit in pressing raw books, as opposed to using pressing to get even a slightly higher CGC grade.

 

Agreed. There's little incentive for pressing books for the raw market.....

 

Jim

[chrisco37]

You have my permission to change your name to "BoobBoy".

 

Actually I thought his name was renamed to LTL--Lightly Toasted Lad after he got his comic-keys refund?

 

Copyright infringement! Lawsuit pending....

 

I'm glad someone pointed this out. We just ret-conned him within the last month. He can't go thru another. Not yet.

[Zanarkand]

I totally disagree with this statement, as it ignores the real reason why pressing is being so rampant: If you can get even a 0.2 CGC grade increase on a high-end book, that can potentially mean thousands of dollars in your pocket.

 

I think this is the whole point of the pressing argument. If collectors pressed the [!@#%^&^] out of their books purely for their own amusement, who would care? Nobody. People only get bent out of shape (haha) when someone presses a book then tries to sell it to them. This argument, as do ALL grading/resto arguments, boils down to money.

 

This is the saga of the pressed book. The seller says "Look how nice and flat this book is! Pay me x for it!", and the buyer says "Yeah, but you pressed it. It's wasn't really that flat yesterday, and yesterday I could've bought it for .8x. Therefore I should only have to pay .8x for it today as well."

 

Who here actually cares about the implications of not calling pressing restoration? Raise your hand. Not so fast - let me rephrase that: Who here actually cares about the implications of CGC not calling pressing restoration? No wait, let me try again: Who here actually cares about the implications of CGC not calling pressing restoration, resulting in the book that you want selling for more than you want to pay? That's the real issue,

[joe_collector]

Who here actually cares about the implications of CGC not calling pressing restoration, resulting in the book that you want selling for more than you want to pay? That's the real issue,

 

In your world maybe, but that's usually the half-assed response a dealer will spout to you.

 

After all, it can't be collectors wanting a pristine book that hasn't had any "work" done to it, or investors wanting comics that won't be PLOD'ed 10 years from now, when the community decides pressing is resto, and detection techniques have improved substantially.

 

No, it's gotta be us cheapos not wanting to pay "market prices" and fork over Guide multiples to dealers playing the press/resto game. That's really what it comes down to, dealers are worried that their "press for cash" scam will be uncovered and collectors, specs and investors will say that the jig is up.

 

Personally, I don't see why anyone would choose a pro-pressed, pancaked POS CGC comic when pristine, unpressed and unrestored CGC comics sell for the same price.

[sfilosa]

All you PRESSING HATERS seem to be missing a very important point.

 

The truth is a pressed 9.4 is INDENTICAL to a Non-Pressed 9.4.

 

The non-color breaking creases ARE NO LONGER THERE. Obviously, the crease was very minor in the first place or it WOULD HAVE BROKE COLOR. There has also been NO PERMANENT DAMAGE done to the book, so how is it now RESTORED?

 

If your argument is that a pressed book will eventually revert back so the non-breaking creases can be seen, that COULD BE a VALID argument.

 

But I haven't seen any conclusive proof that can happen over a long period of time. Yes, maybe if you press out a spine roll, imediately it looks better but a few hours later it doesn't. I'm not worried about that as a buyer since it will be many days/ weeks / month from the time the pressing occurs to CGC grading the book, or me buying the book off the internet.

[Red Hook]

So then what's the harm in dislosing it? It's really just a matter of personal choice, just like every other one of the millions of aspects of our hobby.

[awe4one]

The truth is a pressed 9.4 is INDENTICAL to a Non-Pressed 9.4.

 

Bull.....obviously, CGC and dealers don't see it this way based on the number of higher resubmits that have been revealed recently....

 

Jim

[sfilosa]

Quote:

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The truth is a pressed 9.4 is INDENTICAL to a Non-Pressed 9.4.

 

 

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Bull.....obviously, CGC and dealers don't see it this way based on the number of higher resubmits that have been revealed recently....

 

Jim

 

I don't understand what you mean?

 

 

Based on the PRESSING HATERS rules of RESTORATION, opening a book and then closing it RESTORED the book to it's original condition.

 

Also regarding disclosure, WHAT'S THERE TO DISCLOSE?

 

I have never sent one book to be pressed by a professional. Does that mean none of my books have been pressed. NO. So what am I suppose to disclose?

 

OK, now someone takes a beautiful 8.0 book and sends it to a professional to be pressed and it's now a 9.2. He sends it to CGC, but when it comes time to sell, CGC (or the seller himself) is SUPPOSE to DISCLOSE that this book was PRESSED. And therefore possible sell the book for less than the FMV of other 9.2's. Even though it's possible that ALL THE OTHER 9.2's and higher have been PRESSED!!!

 

Get Real!!!

[awe4one]

I don't understand what you mean?

 

What there to understand? The pressed 9.4 evidently wasn't a 9.4 before being pressed......so they aren't identical.

 

Based on the PRESSING HATERS rules of RESTORATION, opening a book and then closing it RESTORED the book to it's original condition.

 

Overstating your case is sure to add more crediblity to your point of view....

 

OK, now someone takes a beautiful 8.0 book and sends it to a professional to be pressed and it's now a 9.2. He sends it to CGC, but when it comes time to sell, CGC (or the seller himself) is SUPPOSE to DISCLOSE that this book was PRESSED. And therefore possible sell the book for less than the FMV of other 9.2's.

 

Ethical behavior has to start somewhere....

 

Even though it's possible that ALL THE OTHER 9.2's and higher have been PRESSED!!!

 

An assumption you can prove nor disprove. Regardless, with this line of thinking, I guess you might as well start color touching some of your high end comics as a fair number out there have already been painted.

 

This is the type attitude that's really starting to disenchant me in regards to this hobby.....

 

Jim

 

Edited to clarify first response.....

Edited April 1, 2004 by awe4one

[Red Hook]

Hi Steve,

 

Let's just say for the moment, that I am not a PRESSING LOVER! I would rather not buy a book that has been pressed from an 8.0 to a 9.2. Say (just theoretically) that you are the seller, and you did indeed send the book in for professional pressing. Say I send you a question-to-the-seller email asking you if the book has been pressed. Do you hesitate at all to answer truthfully, or do you just say FOAD?

[Ze-man]

I have wanted to ask you guys after reading this thread.

 

 

If 20 raw copies of DD #10 were on a table, all in 9.2 to 9.6 range, and 5 out of the 20 were pressed recentlly

Is it possible to pick out which of the 5 on the table are the pressed comics just by viewing them?

 

And since all these books had to have 9.0, 9.2 chareristics even before being pressed.

After pressing a comic , is there tell tale signs that is is not just a really well kept comic, is spine flatter?, book in general not as puffy?, is it too similar to a comic that was stored properly , stacked in a box for years?

 

And if not , then I guess that is where the problem lies.

 

As it seems from this thread , there is a definate line drawn in the sand , and either you dont mind a book being pressed as its not really restoration.

Or you think pressing is a mild form or Resto and consider the book to no longer be original.

 

So before I lose my original thought,

Can you pik out the pressed copies by a simple viewing, when compared to others next to it?

I personally have not had the pleasure of seeing too many really HG comics up close , so I would like to hear anyones thoughts on my question that has seen their share of HG..

 

Thanks

Z