Ideas For Enhancing CGC Competitive Sets: Page Quality Points

[Professor Pecora]

Does your favorite book contain White Pages, Off-White to White Pages, Off-White Pages, Cream to Off-White Pages or just plain Cream Pages?

 

This journal is going to focus on my proposal that the CGC should begin thinking about allocating points to each registered book according to its "page quality."

 

If page quality wasn't such a big deal, then why is it even noted on the CGC label for each professionally graded book?

 

If page quality wasn't important, why is it highlighted in professional online auctions, such as Heritage Auctions, where they will write a comment under the book's description like, "the CGC has designated this book with perfect page quality as is contains WHITE PAGES! Therefore, this is the finest example available!"

 

If page quality wasn't important, then why do I see a copy of The Incredible Hulk #181 CGC 9.8 with Off-White Pages sell for 12K, and 9.8 copies with White Pages sell for 14K - 18K?

 

If the market is so critical of "page quality," then why wouldn't the CGC initiate a page quality point system, to differentiate between the quality of books registered in sets with the same grade? After all, it is the CGC who classifies this information on the label of every book they graded ... so, why not?

 

For instance, lets say that two competitors are working vigorously towards completing their sets in the same set type with the highest possible points. Since I am primarily a Wolverine collector, I will use the set type, Incredible Hulk #180-#182 (Wolverine) for my example.

 

With that said, the highest graded copies of issues #180 and #182 are 9.8s. However, we are all aware that the highest graded copy of issue #181 is a Universal CGC 9.9, which there is only 1 copy on Earth and recently sold for 150K! Ok - definitely NOT attainable! We will be lucky if we even see it surface in the market within the next 10 years or so!

 

Back to discussing matters in practical sense, the current top-ranked Incredible Hulk #180-#182 (Wolverine) set [Logan Gems: owned by iecarus], showcases a spectacular spread of 9.8s - all of which sport the prestigious CGC Signature Series label! This is quite impressive! However, NONE of these 3 books contain white pages!

 

In turn, my personal goal is to also attain all 9.8s of these issues and have them signed by artists and writers specific to these books. However, I typically only purchase books with WHITE PAGES! I already own a copy of I.H. #182 CGC 9.8 with White Pages, and I am currently working on paying off the only CGC 9.8 pedigree copy of I.H. #180 with White Pages! My final piece would be to acquire the I.H. #181 CGC 9.8 with White Pages and then have them all signed!

 

So then what ...? Will we just remain tied forever as owning the number 1 Incredible Hulk #180-#182 (Wolverine) set? This would be weird, because unless one of us were to somehow acquire the single I.H. #181 CGC 9.9, it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to gain any futher points! Maybe we will eventually have "4" people tied for a number 1 ranked set!

 

This is why I think the CGC should begin allotting points for page quality and show the amount of points in ( ) next to the page quality description for each registered book! The importance of page quality in the marketplace should transcend in the CGC Competitive Sets, as we represent the community of the most hard-core collectors in the world!

 

I would suggest a 10-point system that may look as the following:

 

WHITE PAGES = 10 points

 

OFF-WHITE TO WHITE PAGES = 8 points

 

OFF-WHITE PAGES = 6 points

 

CREAM TO OFF-WHITE PAGES = 4 points

 

CREAM PAGES = 2 points

 

The CGC would still maintain their point system that calculates scores for Restored, Qualified, Universal, & Signature Series labels, that correspond to their ascribed CGC grades. Moreover, the page quality points would serve as "additional points," which would increase the odds of two competitors becoming stuck in a "dead end" situation - a "non-tiebreaker" scenario as described above.

 

I know that I am not the only CGC competitive collector who has shared these sentiments. I am hoping that others who share a similar view will support me in this theoretical CGC Registery enhancement, as it would make things more interesting, exciting, and ultimately more "accurately" competitive!

 

I would love to hear from others regarding this topic. Maybe we can have a strong enough response so that the CGC actually considers to add the Page Quality Point System in the near future!

 

Stay tuned for the next few journals I will be writing in regards to "Ideas For Enhancing CGC Competitive Sets."

 

"Page Quality Points" serves as Part 1 of a series I intend to author.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

-Professor Pecora

 

See more journals by Professor Pecora

[Underground44]

I think it's a good idea and it'll reward collectors going for that little bit extra. I'm interested to see what others think.

[surfer99]

I think we all put too much emphasis on points as it is, including myself (I feel this strange need to be ranked in the top 500 for whatever reason, like it matters, ). Having said that, I do think you make a sound argument- page quality is highly touted among collectors and White pages do carry a premium (although personally I'm inclined to pay the same price for Off-White/White pages as I would for White pages). I wouldn't be opposed to it.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I totally agree with you but to make it simple for CGC I would simply add 10 points for White Pages and (maybe) subtract 10 points for CR/OW or less . I consider OW/W and OW to be acceptable but no biggie = not worthy of extra points.

Also, maybe the premium points should be a percentage of the core points.

[Clouded9]

Slippery slope in my opinion. There are way too many variables that collectors use to determine if one book is better than the other (centering, cover gloss, staple placement, etc.) and just as many opinions on which are more important and would be valued more. CGC does not note all of these idiosyncrasies on the slab labels, but they would need to be taken into account for your proposed upgrade to actually be worth it to see which book is actually better.

 

Not all books of the same grade are equal. For example, you have a 9.8 white page copy of a great key book, but it is slightly off center. Now let's say someone else had the same book at a 9.8 with Off-White-White pages and was perfectly centered. I, and many other people, would say the perfectly centered OWW book is the better copy.

 

Ultimately, I don't really think CGC would do this anyway. They offer the registry as a free service and as a business i don't think they will allocate the time and resources to re-vamp the entire registry without some gain for them financially like starting to charge people to use it. (This is not a suggestion CGC )

 

At the end of the day... why take the registry too seriously anyway. I collect comic books and not registry points.

[mysterio]

Slippery slope in my opinion. There are way too many variables that collectors use to determine if one book is better than the other (centering, cover gloss, staple placement, etc.) and just as many opinions on which are more important and would be valued more. CGC does not note all of these idiosyncrasies on the slab labels, but they would need to be taken into account for your proposed upgrade to actually be worth it to see which book is actually better.

 

Not all books of the same grade are equal. For example, you have a 9.8 white page copy of a great key book, but it is slightly off center. Now let's say someone else had the same book at a 9.8 with Off-White-White pages and was perfectly centered. I, and many other people, would say the perfectly centered OWW book is the better copy.

 

Ultimately, I don't really think CGC would do this anyway. They offer the registry as a free service and as a business i don't think they will allocate the time and resources to re-vamp the entire registry without some gain for them financially like starting to charge people to use it. (This is not a suggestion CGC )

 

At the end of the day... why take the registry too seriously anyway. I collect comic books and not registry points.

 

Yes, grading is subjective, but many of the things you noted are simply not counted by CGC as they grade the structure of a book. I agree that wrap is very important for eye appeal, but there are lots of hideously wrapped 9.8s floating around. That is clearly not something that CGC counts when looking at the structure and preservation of a book.

 

Now, they DO look at page quality and assess it with an objective scale. We can quibble about what PQs are desirable or not desirable, just as we can quibble over whether or not we like a particular 9.8 because of the centering or whatever else. But at the end of the day, agree with it or not, the numerical grade and the PQ assigned by CGC are quantifiable. As such, you should be able to award points for PQ just as you do for grade.

 

I would prefer to see some sort of multiplier attached to PQ. For example

 

White pages = 25% more points for that book

OW-W pages = 15% more points for that book

OW = 5% more points for that book

CR-OW = 0%

Tan = -5% points

Brittle = -25%

 

So a book that would normally be worth 1000 points would be a 1250 point book with white pages, an 1150 point book with OW-W, and a 750 point book if it had brittle pages. To me that would more clearly reflect the relative values of PQ on desirability and value. It would also be easy to write into the program that awards points in the registry. It would also reflect the greater value that higher PQ has, particularly for SA and GA books where WP can bring quite a premium.

 

Also, I can't see anything that would cause CGC to start charging for people to use the registry. It is the best marketing tool they have, as you get people hooked on competing on sets and that drives them to want to get more books graded (worked on me!). If you charge for the registry you reduce that incentive to buy. That would be biting the hand that feeds them.

[Clouded9]

the numerical grade and the PQ assigned by CGC are quantifiable. As such, you should be able to award points for PQ just as you do for grade.

 

Hey Mysterio !

 

Valid point, but do we stop there? What about pedigree books (There are a few threads floating around that specifically target this)? The noted pedigree designation on the label is quantifiable. I think it's universally known that folks are willing to pay a premium for a pedigree book, but does a pedigree book deserve more points than a non ped copy of the same book that is structurally graded the same by CGC with the same PQ only because it was part of a prominent collection. I don't think it does IMHO and at the moment neither does CGC based on the current registry point setup. How would we determine the better book when 2 9.8 WP Ped copies show up?

 

I would prefer to see some sort of multiplier attached to PQ. For example

 

White pages = 25% more points for that book

OW-W pages = 15% more points for that book

OW = 5% more points for that book

CR-OW = 0%

Tan = -5% points

Brittle = -25%

 

So a book that would normally be worth 1000 points would be a 1250 point book with white pages, an 1150 point book with OW-W, and a 750 point book if it had brittle pages. To me that would more clearly reflect the relative values of PQ on desirability and value. It would also be easy to write into the program that awards points in the registry. It would also reflect the greater value that higher PQ has, particularly for SA and GA books where WP can bring quite a premium.

 

With my quick math... I would get something like a 4,800 - 5000 registry point boost on this system without having to buy a single book. You may have just turned me to the dark side sir!

[miraclemet]

Isn't page quality one of the most subjective aspects of the comic condition? That alone makes me think you leave it out of the points variable unless the page quality affects the actual final comic grade (which it can cant it in GA comics with very low grade paper quality?)

 

Otherwise its like trying to tell the difference between "eggshell" and "pure" for which version of white paint you want to buy...

 

Also do "old labels" even list page quality ?

[mysterio]

Isn't page quality one of the most subjective aspects of the comic condition? That alone makes me think you leave it out of the points variable unless the page quality affects the actual final comic grade (which it can cant it in GA comics with very low grade paper quality?)

 

Otherwise its like trying to tell the difference between "eggshell" and "pure" for which version of white paint you want to buy...

 

Also do "old labels" even list page quality ?

 

Old labels do list PQ.

 

All grading is subjective, so why would PQ be any different...

[Bomber-Bob]

Isn't page quality one of the most subjective aspects of the comic condition?

 

Also do "old labels" even list page quality ?

 

I think the page quality is easier to assign and much less subjective. And with the exception of maybe the earliest graded books the old labels have Page Quality. I think rarity should be acknowledged in registry points and certain books are very rare with White pages.

Don't Signature Service books get higher registry points ? Is a Stan Lee signed book really rare anymore ?

[Clouded9]

Don't Signature Service books get higher registry points ? Is a Stan Lee signed book really rare anymore ?

 

I thought I saw a DC book Stan signed last year. He must have thought Solomon Grundy was the Grey Hulk!

 

I think a silver age book that Stan actually wrote being signed by him is still neat, but not rare. I have one myself (Spectacular Spider-Man #1 from 1968). What I don't understand is getting Stan to sign a modern or copper age book that he didn't even work on.

 

Not to open the flood gates of hate, but I don't think Sig Series books should get more registry points anyway as sigs do not change the structural integrity of the book (unless the person signing it does not handle it properly and damages it). A 9.4 SS is still just a 9.4 book. I won't say anymore as there are already several threads on the boards dedicated to this topic already. Just my opinion.

 

[rtecbot]

Page Quality of the book can also change while the book is in the slab. I have had books that went down in page quality upon resubmission.

[Bomber-Bob]

Page Quality of the book can also change while the book is in the slab. I have had books that went down in page quality upon resubmission.

 

And so can the grade. How does that matter. The discussion is should the Registry recognize higher Page Quality with more points.

[mysterio]

Page Quality of the book can also change while the book is in the slab. I have had books that went down in page quality upon resubmission.

 

And so can the grade. How does that matter. The discussion is should the Registry recognize higher Page Quality with more points.

 

Both grade and PQ can change on a resub, which reflects the inherent subjectivity of grading. But when a book is in the slab it is what it is. And a 9.4 with white pages has more desirability to many collectors than the same 9.4 with OW or CR-OW pages, and it will cost more, so the registry should reflect that.

[ramrod44]

Don't forget about added points for pedigrees!

[Bomber-Bob]

Don't forget about added points for pedigrees!

 

Though I would like to see that happen, I don't think it will. For starters it would be more difficult to implement. All peds are not created equal. I would hate to see a Mohawk Valley get the same ped bump as a Mile High Church copy.

[surfer99]

Bagofleas made a great comment on another journal- CGC has never kept track of Page Quality (or Pedigrees) so assigning point value based on that would be difficult. Better that they focus on easily fixed flaws in the current system.

 

 

[mysterio]

Bagofleas made a great comment on another journal- CGC has never kept track of Page Quality (or Pedigrees) so assigning point value based on that would be difficult. Better that they focus on easily fixed flaws in the current system.

 

 

Any time a book is listed in the registry it shows the PQ in the issue listing. If you used a multiplier like I suggested CGC wouldn't have to track anything. A book would get a base value like it does now, and then the PQ multiplier would be applied to that. One more instruction in the code would accomplish it easily.

[Professor Pecora]

I like this idea! (thumbs u

[surfer99]

I don't know that it makes a difference, but while page quality and pedigrees are listed on the registry, they're not listed on the census. If adding points for page quality is as simple as you say though, I'm all for it!