Trimming

[Boozad]

Yep, not restoration I know, but does anybody know how CGC look for and identify trimming? I have always been curious, but now it's actually affected me I would really like to know. I've done a half-arsed search but didn't find anything in any great detail.

[HeyMoe]

Why do you say it's not a form of restoration?

 

I would have thought it's one of the main ones.

 

Just curious.

[Boozad]

Because it's destroying the book, not restoring it.

[isiTrue]

Because it's destroying the book, not restoring it.

 

Splitting hairs...

You know full well that trimming "restores" the grade.

 

However, a quick search yielded this bit of information:

 

 

"One common restoration performed on square bound issues (100 Page Giants, 80 Page Giants, Marvel Giant Size) is making the issue seem like it was naturally printed square bound with no cover overlapping the edges of the comic. Usually someone will cut the excess edges off so the issue does not have the cover overlapping because the overlapping often bends the cover, lowers the grade and also is considered a printing defect. If someone has tried to trim the edge, unless if it was trimmed with an X-acto knife there usually is some form of small squarish piece that will remain or the edges will be slightly frayed in the area that was cut. X-acto Knifes often will leave irregular angles to the edge and sometime the paper will also be wavy due to the shifting angle of the blade. If this was performed by someone knowledgeable using a matte cutter (a razor in a holder, like a boxcutter), unless the entire edge was sliced (like the whole top edge of a comic was shaved) there would be different edge coloration to the paper that has been shaved (i.e. bright white instead of a slightly tanned color) which should be visible to the eye but definitely could be seen using a cheap lighted hand held magnifier. Edges are also often cut when a comic is displaying signs of marvel chipping, a common silver age problem. Edges cut with a regular paper cutter will also show signs of waviness. A pro will use a guillotine cutter to cut the entire edge on a regular sized comic and in this case the only way to determine the restoration is to compare the size of the issue in question to another copy of the same comic or another copy from the same publisher from the same publication year."

 

[Boozad]

Because it's destroying the book, not restoring it.

 

Splitting hairs...

You know full well that trimming "restores" the grade.

 

Not splitting hairs. Restoration refers to restoring the book itself, not the grade. Trimming restores neither as it removes part of the book. I think you'd be hard pushed to find anybody around here who consider trimming to be restoration.

[Junkdrawer]

I rather own a brittle taped up detached written on with a side of MC and a date stamp before ever allowing a trimmed book in my home.

[isiTrue]

Because it's destroying the book, not restoring it.

 

Splitting hairs...

You know full well that trimming "restores" the grade.

 

Not splitting hairs. Restoration refers to restoring the book itself, not the grade. Trimming restores neither as it removes part of the book. I think you'd be hard pushed to find anybody around here who consider trimming to be restoration.

 

 

Yes, but you have to consider the context of the term "restoration." An honest person restoring a book adds to it, this is true.

 

The guy who takes a knife to a book to get rid of that bent overhanging paper is "restoring" the look and grade in order to fetch more money for it.

 

Hence, splitting hairs.

 

 

By the way, did the information help at all?

[Junkdrawer]

The year is winding down and the title for board fool of the year is something you are making a run at?

[Boozad]

Because it's destroying the book, not restoring it.

 

Splitting hairs...

You know full well that trimming "restores" the grade.

 

Not splitting hairs. Restoration refers to restoring the book itself, not the grade. Trimming restores neither as it removes part of the book. I think you'd be hard pushed to find anybody around here who consider trimming to be restoration.

 

 

Yes, but you have to consider the context of the term "restoration." An honest person restoring a book adds to it, this is true.

 

The guy who takes a knife to a book to get rid of that bent overhanging paper is "restoring" the look and grade in order to fetch more money for it.

 

Hence, splitting hairs.

 

I'll never see trimming perceived as restoration in any way, shape or form. I'll not get into an argument about it, I'll just agree to differ.

 

 

By the way, did the information help at all?

 

It was appreciated, but it doesn't really help with the book I have. CGC have noted it as trimmed, but knowing the history of the book and having examined it multiple times in hand I don't believe it is. What I wanted to know was how do CGC determine a book is trimmed.

 

You can see more info about the said book in the Spare a Grade forum (Batman #232), I don't want to make this thread about that book, I would just like to know how trimming is detected.

[isiTrue]

Because it's destroying the book, not restoring it.

 

Splitting hairs...

You know full well that trimming "restores" the grade.

 

Not splitting hairs. Restoration refers to restoring the book itself, not the grade. Trimming restores neither as it removes part of the book. I think you'd be hard pushed to find anybody around here who consider trimming to be restoration.

 

 

Yes, but you have to consider the context of the term "restoration." An honest person restoring a book adds to it, this is true.

 

The guy who takes a knife to a book to get rid of that bent overhanging paper is "restoring" the look and grade in order to fetch more money for it.

 

Hence, splitting hairs.

 

I'll never see trimming perceived as restoration in any way, shape or form. I'll not get into an argument about it, I'll just agree to differ.

 

 

By the way, did the information help at all?

 

It was appreciated, but it doesn't really help with the book I have. CGC have noted it as trimmed, but knowing the history of the book and having examined it multiple times in hand I don't believe it is. What I wanted to know was how do CGC determine a book is trimmed.

 

You can see more info about the said book in the Spare a Grade forum (Batman #232), I don't want to make this thread about that book, I would just like to know how trimming is detected.

 

 

Just to clarify... I was adding a bit of humor into my first post, which is why I put "restores" in quotes.

 

With my second post, I was simply pointing out how restoration can be interpreted differently depending on the mind of the individual. On one hand, it's wrecking a book, on the other, it can yield a higher profit if undetected. I was not implying that trimming is a legitimate form of restoration.

 

A similar example would be pressing. Just about everyone here knows that debate... different sides, same coin. (Similar, as an example pertaining to perception! Yes, I felt the flames...)

 

 

Now then, back on topic.

 

I assume that CGC wouldn't give out their detection methods freely, so contacting them would be pointless. I imagine the only way to find out would be from someone who worked there.

 

[isiTrue]

The year is winding down and the title for board fool of the year is something you are making a run at?

 

Injects an insulting post without stating the reason and without any relevance to the original topic...?

 

Eh, whatever. I refuse to feed the troll.

[Boozad]

I assume that CGC wouldn't give out their detection methods freely, so contacting them would be pointless. I imagine the only way to find out would be from someone who worked there.

 

I'm not expecting CGC to answer the question, but there are some knowledgeable boardies on here who may know. I've no intention of contacting CGC to appeal the notation, I have a pack of Mylars at home waiting for the book when it comes home. I don't believe it to be trimmed, but if I knew how it was determined to be trimmed I could look at it again as I couldn't see anything in all the times I went over the book. And that was a lot of times before deciding to have it pressed and graded.

[Racer-X]

Booz - are you saying you got a book slabbed by CGC with a notation that it was trimmed but it is not in a PLOD? Trimming is most certainly considered restoration by 98%...99% of the people in this hobby?

 

Given other boardies know more about how to detect trimming, I will nonetheless be the first to enthusiastically tell the little I know:

 

1. For right edge trimming detection: Hold the book vertically between your palms with the open side up (spine down). Look across the open edge with the corner of the lrc near your eye and the urc away from you. The cross-section should form an inverted V, with the center pages sticking out more than the next wraps, which stick out more than the next outer wraps, etc. It is easy to see why, as the outer pages, when folded over all the inner pages, don't stick out as much because they have to wrap around all the inner pages. A trimmed book will likely have a flat edge with no inverted-V.

 

2. Look for paper edges whiter than the color of the paper inside. A "new" cut will reveal the white paper color that age has darkened.

 

3. Slanted edges and curved edges do NOT indicate trimming, as these "errors" commonly occur in the normal comic factory trimming process

 

[Boozad]

Booz - are you saying you got a book slabbed by CGC with a notation that it was trimmed but it is not in a PLOD? Trimming is most certainly considered restoration by 98%...99% of the people in this hobby?

 

No, it's a PLOD.

 

Given other boardies no more about how to detect trimming, I will nonetheless be the first to enthusiastically tell the little I know:

 

1. For right edge trimming detection: Hold the book vertically between your palms with the open side up (spine down). Look down the open edge with the corner of the lrc near your eye and the urc away from you. The cross-section should form an inverted V, with the center pages sticking out more than the next wraps, which stick out more than the next outer wraps, etc. It is easy to see why, as the outer pages, when folded over all the inner pages, don't stick out as much because they have to wrap around all the inner pages. A trimmed book will likely have a flat edge with no inverted-V.

 

2. Look for paper edges whiter than the color of the paper inside. A "new" cut will reveal the white paper color that age has darkened.

 

3. Slanted edges and curved edges do NOT indicate trimming, as these "errors" commonly occur in the normal comic factory trimming process

 

I've looked for all of these signs and found none. If I'm going to be subbing an SA or BA book I always check, but I couldn't see anything that indicated trimming. You can see the book yourself in the PGM section. The only thing I didn't do was check the size against another BA book, as I had no suspicion it was trimmed I never bothered.

[Junkdrawer]

The year is winding down and the title for board fool of the year is something you are making a run at?

 

Injects an insulting post without stating the reason and without any relevance to the original topic...?

 

Eh, whatever. I refuse to feed the troll.

Your stating that trimming restores the grade. Anyone who plans on taking the natural edge off of a comic book is either a fool or a thief.

[DR.X]

The year is winding down and the title for board fool of the year is something you are making a run at?

 

Injects an insulting post without stating the reason and without any relevance to the original topic...?

 

Eh, whatever. I refuse to feed the troll.

Your stating that trimming restores the grade. Anyone who plans on taking the natural edge off of a comic book is either a fool or a thief .

 

 

Or a mutilator. Hey, that could be a new word?

[isiTrue]

I assume that CGC wouldn't give out their detection methods freely, so contacting them would be pointless. I imagine the only way to find out would be from someone who worked there.

 

I'm not expecting CGC to answer the question, but there are some knowledgeable boardies on here who may know. I've no intention of contacting CGC to appeal the notation, I have a pack of Mylars at home waiting for the book when it comes home. I don't believe it to be trimmed, but if I knew how it was determined to be trimmed I could look at it again as I couldn't see anything in all the times I went over the book. And that was a lot of times before deciding to have it pressed and graded.

 

 

That sucks. The uncertainty must be very frustrating.

 

An idea... perhaps you could ask someone here to scan their copy, save it at a certain size and resolution, then do the same with your copy. Then just rotate it until both copies line up, and compare.

[isiTrue]

The year is winding down and the title for board fool of the year is something you are making a run at?

 

Injects an insulting post without stating the reason and without any relevance to the original topic...?

 

Eh, whatever. I refuse to feed the troll.

Your stating that trimming restores the grade. Anyone who plans on taking the natural edge off of a comic book is either a fool or a thief.

 

Sigh. I explained this in my third post, but I'll give you an example.

 

A guy buys a raw key book in 1970 that would grade a 9.6. He moves, forgets about it, finds it forty years later and sells it. At this point, the cover edge slightly folds over resulting in overhang, which in turn would yield a lower grade. Other than that, the book is perfect.

 

The buyer, being the expert trimmer that he is, cuts off the edge. He then proceeds to sell the book as a raw 9.6.

 

 

In this case, from this perspective, trimming was used to restore the grade. Is the book actually restored to the condition that it was originally in? Of course not. But we're talking about perception.

[Racer-X]

I assume that CGC wouldn't give out their detection methods freely, so contacting them would be pointless. I imagine the only way to find out would be from someone who worked there.

 

I'm not expecting CGC to answer the question, but there are some knowledgeable boardies on here who may know. I've no intention of contacting CGC to appeal the notation, I have a pack of Mylars at home waiting for the book when it comes home. I don't believe it to be trimmed, but if I knew how it was determined to be trimmed I could look at it again as I couldn't see anything in all the times I went over the book. And that was a lot of times before deciding to have it pressed and graded.

 

 

That sucks. The uncertainty must be very frustrating.

 

An idea... perhaps you could ask someone here to scan their copy, save it at a certain size and resolution, then do the same with your copy. Then just rotate it until both copies line up, and compare.

 

Won't work - issues of same book were cut to different sizes in the factory - that is, not all Batman 233's will be the exact same length and width

[Tony S]

The year is winding down and the title for board fool of the year is something you are making a run at?

 

Injects an insulting post without stating the reason and without any relevance to the original topic...?

 

Eh, whatever. I refuse to feed the troll.

Your stating that trimming restores the grade. Anyone who plans on taking the natural edge off of a comic book is either a fool or a thief.

 

Oh, come on. Let's not argue.

 

CGC puts trimmed books in a restored label holder. Trimming is done to try to enhance the appearance of the book. One of the things restoration attempts to do. So it's fair to say trimming is restoration.

 

No professional restorer would trim a book - because it violates the first rule of restoration. Which is that all procedures done should be reversable. This so that if a better method or procedure comes what was done can be undone and the better procedure applied. So it's also fair to say that trimming isn't (professional) restoration.

 

There is a "how to spot restoration" thread from long ago on the boards, but I suck at finding such. The author covered trimming. It doesn't matter - I've read it and memorized it but I still have had a few books come back trimmed that I didn't spot. The author of that thread said that measuring the books was the least effective approach - as older books varied some in size due to cheap printing.

 

Sorry to hear about the OP's bad luck.