ORIGINS of the American Comic Book 0

[ciorac]

GA comic collectors use some big words.

 

The cool ones do

[MrBedrock]

GA comic collectors use some big words.

 

The cool ones do

But you just used some big words

[ciorac]

GA comic collectors use some big words.

 

The cool ones do

But you just used some big words

 

And I'm the coolest of the cool

 

As my good friend Alice Cooper wrote about me many years ago...

 

You know that I'm the coolest that's ever come around

You'll notice things get hotter whenever I'm in town

I mean I gotta be the coolest, who else could it be?

Everybody knows who's really cool, me

 

 

[MrBedrock]

GA comic collectors use some big words.

 

The cool ones do

But you just used some big words

 

And I'm the coolest of the cool

 

As my good friend Alice Cooper wrote about me many years ago...

 

You know that I'm the coolest that's ever come around

You'll notice things get hotter whenever I'm in town

I mean I gotta be the coolest, who else could it be?

Everybody knows who's really cool, me

 

If Alice said it, it must be true (thumbs u

[BLBcomics-migration]

Very interesting information. I would like to read that Gaines' article.

 

I think we are discussing both, since we are discussing in a thread entitled "Origins of the American Comic Book". Both chronology and causality are relevant to that topic.

 

Most of us take umbrage when the OP mentions, or asserts, that the anecdotal appearance of Olbuck 100 years before comic books truly hits the stands as being the most important moment in both chronolgy and causality, it strains our minds to the point of incredulity that someone could hold such a preposterous belief. Then have the temerity to call us silly for not holding a similar view.

 

Topffer's comic srtip books he created in Geneva Switzerland beginning in 1828 utilizing the then brand-new technological advance we came to call lithography, in its earliest days "stone" lithography where one drew the words and pictures together on stone printing "plates" led directly to comc strip books in at least six countries, so "we" identified over on the PlatinumAgeComics list I created on yahoogroups back in 1999.

 

One question i have regarding a statement you made earlier re Gaines and Topffer, which you have no acknowledged, is the 1942 Gaines Print article, URL provided up above in a post i made yesterday, which has Gaines writing about Topffer.

 

I am not jumping A < B from Topffer to Famous Funnies (many comics scholars refuse to place all "invention" of that particular FF solely to Gaines much like many refuse to place "invention" of a later FF soley with Stan Lee). That is silly.

 

There is a definate time line evolution. All mass produced comic books begins with Topffer having his comic books printed with the earliest forms of lithography. I have rewritten quite a few times the same line which disspells that thought pattern you make (which I did not make): there are thosusands of comic strips in hundreds of publications in 1800s USA for a period of 60 years before Yellow Kid, much less 90 years before 30s FF.

 

 

 

 

[sacentaur]

Most of us take umbrage when the OP mentions, or asserts, that the anecdotal appearance of Olbuck 100 years before comic books truly hits the stands as being the most important moment in both chronolgy and causality, it strains our minds to the point of incredulity that someone could hold such a preposterous belief. Then have the temerity to call us silly for not holding a similar view.

 

Well said, Bill.

 

As long as the OP can prop his fading image and generate sympathy sales for his ebay store, while also weaving a tangled web to befuddle and obfuscate, then I'm pretty sure he doesn't really give a damn what others think.

[ciorac]

Very interesting information. I would like to read that Gaines' article.

 

I think we are discussing both, since we are discussing in a thread entitled "Origins of the American Comic Book". Both chronology and causality are relevant to that topic.

 

Most of us take umbrage when the OP mentions, or asserts, that the anecdotal appearance of Olbuck 100 years before comic books truly hits the stands as being the most important moment in both chronolgy and causality, it strains our minds to the point of incredulity that someone could hold such a preposterous belief. Then have the temerity to call us silly for not holding a similar view.

 

Topffer's comic srtip books he created in Geneva Switzerland beginning in 1828 utilizing the then brand-new technological advance we came to call lithography, in its earliest days "stone" lithography where one drew the words and pictures together on stone printing "plates" led directly to comc strip books in at least six countries, so "we" identified over on the PlatinumAgeComics list I created on yahoogroups back in 1999.

 

One question i have regarding a statement you made earlier re Gaines and Topffer, which you have no acknowledged, is the 1942 Gaines Print article, URL provided up above in a post i made yesterday, which has Gaines writing about Topffer.

 

I am not jumping A < B from Topffer to Famous Funnies (many comics scholars refuse to place all "invention" of that particular FF solely to Gaines much like many refuse to place "invention" of a later FF soley with Stan Lee). That is silly.

 

There is a definate time line evolution. All mass produced comic books begins with Topffer having his comic books printed with the earliest forms of lithography. I have rewritten quite a few times the same line which disspells that thought pattern you make (which I did not make): there are thosusands of comic strips in hundreds of publications in 1800s USA for a period of 60 years before Yellow Kid, much less 90 years before 30s FF.

 

 

 

 

I did read the Gaines article you provided. And I enjoyed it very much. Saved it to my computer for future reference as wel.

 

Gaines mentioned quite a few events as being on the timeline, but never did he say HE was influenced by Obadiah. Merely that the comic evolution has a long, storied, past. I agree wholeheartedly with that view

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bill, and whomever else might be reading this:

 

[font:Times New Roman]Your point about superheroes fading after WWII is well taken, but there were a few survivors.

 

Here's one [PLASTIC MAN pic snipped] that stretched success all the way to the Comics Code and slightly beyond:[/font]

 

As well as did Quality Comics Group Blackhawk, obviously sellign well enough even to be picked up by National Periodicals Publications in 1956, though as we also well know Plaz did not make Team DC then. Plastic Man simply did not function as a title without Jack Cole is what i think.

 

Tis encouraging to see "...point well taken..." - we are making progress

 

 

[mrmyst]

Something perhaps not mentioned - many, many creators from the Golden Age cite the pulps as their imaginative and artistic inspiration for the comic book work they would do in the late 30s and into the 40s. And films. I'd venture to say that pulps and film had a LOT of weight in bringing about the success of the comic book. Once the 'gates' opened with the comic book as a viable commercial enterprise in the middle 30s, the talented kids jumped right in. Kirby, Eisner, Siegel, Shuster et al all went on record citing film and pulps as a major inspiration to their work...

Edited April 9, 2013 by mrmyst

[sacentaur]

Something perhaps not mentioned - many, many creators from the Golden Age cite the pulps as their imaginative and artistic inspiration for the comic book work they would do in the late 30s and into the 40s. And films. I'd venture to say that pulps and film had a LOT of weight in bringing about the success of the comic book. Once the 'gates' opened with the comic book as a viable commercial enterprise in the middle 30s, the talented kids jumped right in. Kirby, Eisner, Siegel, Shuster et al all went on record citing film and pulps as a major inspiration to their work...

 

Absolutely, and excellent point.

 

Such logic won't serve BLB very well however as he may have trouble locating another victim showcase4 to peddle his "treasures" to.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here is a repeat visual aid preciously ignored posted for regarding sales numbers on comic books before the supposed giant splash of Action Comics #1 reinventing the comic book sales wise. This page stating [font:Arial Black]"...2.5 million copies sold without the slightest effort.[/font].." is from the Feb 1921 issue from my complete archive of American News Trade Journal 1919-1957 which is just one tool I utilize to trace the concepts of comic books in America.

 

 

At this point Cupples and Leon had published no more than three of their Bringing Up Father series in this format.

 

 

 

Here is a scarce 1919 British edition as distribution on comic books beginning as early as 1905 went international in to the British Empire as well as French editions in their language.

 

and I aplogize for the cut off nature of BUF #2 Brit as well as #3 #4 #5 as my larger scanner is not presently accessible.

 

The advert above of George McManus entering self-publishing with Trouble With Bringing Up Father as a reprint comic book of color Sunday strips prompted Cupples and Leon later in 1921 to issue #4 and #5 of more daily srtips as well as publish one or two a year for another 12 years. McManus was half owner of Embee Publishing with his abortive Comic Monthly running 12 issues Jan-Dec 1922, which never seemed to have gotten distribution traction for reasons I am still puzzling thru. Similar to Kurtzman, Elder et al years later trying to get their self-published Humbug to market.

 

Again, apologies the tops and bottoms are cut off of #4 and #5. My smaller scanner is not large enough

 

 

 

The McManus BUF C&L series ran 1919-1933 selling many millions of copies many of the numbers being reprinted to fulfill unmet demand like Superman #1 having three separate printings and/or Zap Comics seeing many editions.

 

The Bringing Up Father series next to their Mutt & Jeff being the most common survivors. Not too shabby for black and white daily strip reprints most every one had already read akin to people buying Peanuts or Calvin & Hobbes comic books years later.

 

No doubt about it Superman #1 was noticed sales wise by other publishers. There is also no doubt the previous issues of Action Comics were not causing hardly any ripples in publisher consciousness except for Victor Fox causing him to rent office space in the same building as Donenfeld.

 

[mrmyst]

...well, Batman came right out of the Shadow...and Superman from Doc Savage...etc etc. .And think of Lugosi's Dracula when you look at the early Batman stories in Detective. The creators have acknowledged it...no mention of OO for their inspiration. For me at least - the pulps and the amazing explosion of film in the 20s and 30s are what got these young (mostly Jewish) kids granted the imaginations to really make comic books succeed.

[mrmyst]

Here is a repeat visual aid preciously ignored posted for regarding sales numbers on comic books before the supposed giant splash of Action Comics #1 reinventing the comic book sales wise. This page stating [font:Arial Black]"...2.5 million copies sold without the slightest effort.[/font].." is from the Feb 1921 issue from my complete archive of American News Trade Journal 1919-1957 which is just one tool I utilize to trace the concepts of comic books in America.

 

 

At this point Cupples and Leon had published no more than three of their Bringing Up Father series in this format.

 

 

 

Here is a scarce 1919 British edition as distribution on comic books beginning as early as 1905 went international in to the British Empire as well as French editions in their language.

 

and I aplogize for the cut off nature of BUF #2 Brit as well as #3 #4 #5 as my larger scanner is not presently accessible.

 

The advert above of George McManus entering self-publishing with Trouble With Bringing Up Father as a reprint comic book of color Sunday strips prompted Cupples and Leon later in 1921 to issue #4 and #5 of more daily srtips as well as publish one or two a year for another 12 years. McManus was half owner of Embee Publishing with his abortive Comic Monthly running 12 issues Jan-Dec 1922, which never seemed to have gotten distribution traction for reasons I am still puzzling thru. Similar to Kurtzman, Elder et al years later trying to get their self-published Humbug to market.

 

Again, apologies the tops and bottoms are cut off of #4 and #5. My smaller scanner is not large enough

 

 

 

The McManus BUF C&L series ran 1919-1933 selling many millions of copies many of the numbers being reprinted to fulfill unmet demand like Superman #1 having three separate printings and/or Zap Comics seeing many editions.

 

The Bringing Up Father series next to their Mutt & Jeff being the most common survivors. Not too shabby for black and white daily strip reprints most every one had already read akin to people buying Peanuts or Calvin & Hobbes comic books years later.

 

No doubt about it Superman #1 was noticed sales wise by other publishers. There is also no doubt the previous issues of Action Comics were not causing hardly any ripples in publisher consciousness except for Victor Fox causing him to rent office space in the same building as Donenfeld.

Yes, the Sunday Funnies in the newspapers were adored by millions...but these reprints could not have sustained the comic book medium. It took original stories and art to do it, produced by energetic (and often desperately poor) young guys who were on the cutting edge in the late 30s - they didn't know it yet, but their peers out there in reading land would just love their stuff, and buy them by the millions.

[Kevin.J]

My collection only goes back to 1881

 

 

[Scrooge]

...well, Batman came right out of the Shadow...and Superman from Doc Savage...etc etc. .And think of Lugosi's Dracula when you look at the early Batman stories in Detective. The creators have acknowledged it...no mention of OO for their inspiration.

 

Not that I have a bone in this nor have I read everything posted, but in that post above, you are confusing the content with the form. BLB talks about the form, you talk about the content. Two entirely different aspects in this debate.

[Theagenes]

I want to play too. Here's a Wilhem Busch strip from an 1872 issue of Frank Leslie's Illustrated Weekly. Kind of sadistic humor as the punchline is a baby being injured by a pair of scissors that gets wrapped up in it's diaper.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by Theagenes

[mrmyst]

...well, Batman came right out of the Shadow...and Superman from Doc Savage...etc etc. .And think of Lugosi's Dracula when you look at the early Batman stories in Detective. The creators have acknowledged it...no mention of OO for their inspiration.

 

Not that I have a bone in this nor have I read everything posted, but in that post above, you are confusing the content with the form. BLB talks about the form, you talk about the content. Two entirely different aspects in this debate.

Agreed.

[sacentaur]

...well, Batman came right out of the Shadow...and Superman from Doc Savage...etc etc. .And think of Lugosi's Dracula when you look at the early Batman stories in Detective. The creators have acknowledged it...no mention of OO for their inspiration.

 

Not that I have a bone in this nor have I read everything posted, but in that post above, you are confusing the content with the form. BLB talks about the form, you talk about the content. Two entirely different aspects in this debate.

 

Different, but not equally weighted factors. This is an extreme example, but just because the ancient Egyptians had board games like Senet and Mehen, it doesn't mean either had any influence at all on the creators of Monopoly.

 

This thread is all a red herring for BLB to justify his past, present, and (no doubt) future egregious behavior. Once that is understood, then it makes sense.

[BLBcomics-migration]

No one in this camp has stated Oldbuck inspired Superman. Certainly not me.

 

however, Bill was earlier pontificating Gaines had not seen Topffer. As I have known for a very long time re that 1942 Print article Gaines supposedly wrote himself, he hisself states otherwise.

 

The concept of making comic books begins in America in 1842.

 

By 1849 the first original home grown one comes along.

 

In the 1850s more than half a dozen more comic books are published in America as well as quite a few large tabloid size (akin to 70s Treasury size) periodicals began running sequential comic strips. It was this going on which garnered tehe attention span of NYC based larger circulation "news" papers

 

I showed a scant three well drawn examples from Wild Oats weekly newspaper (like a Sunday special the "other" newspapers owned by Pulitzer, then Hearst, then Gordon Bennett, publisher of Outcault's Buster Brown, McCay's Little Nemo as well as his more obscure attempts at building wide sperad success with character identification , among many other well known classics, then a flood gate, picked up on being copy cats on.

 

I could scan and show HUNDREDS of equally cool sequential comic strips just from Wild Oats alone much less the other graphic humor periodicals from the 19th century. These three suffice as the mere examples they were intended as.

 

Here is my absolute favorite comic book cover of all time which dates from December 1905 Christmas season. I simply love the work of Winsor McCay and some some to still cling to outmoded easily disproved micro views of what constitutes being able to call something a "comic book" was is and remains silly.

 

 

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Busch did hundreds of sequential comic strips reprinted widely around the world while he lived in Germany. He was translated in to many languages.

 

In Wild Oats beginning in #3 1970 i discovered when conducting research at LOC and New York Historial Society as the Victorian section was being constructed that Busch inaugurates sequential comic strips in this periodical. Dozens of other comic strip art creators make sequential comic strips therein as well

 

Within a few years in that seminal periodical chock full of sequential comic art strips Fred Opper was doing sequential comic strips in it beginning in 1875 a full 25 years before he introduced Happy Hooligan in 1900. By then he was beginning to be an old man of the comic strip celebrity "club"

 

That same year also saw Palmer Cox, later of Brownies fame, from whom Outcault claims he was totally inspired by, also doing the first many double page sequential comic strips with just one example presented by me here. I have dozens of other examples in my research files.

 

I want to play too. Here's a Wilhem Busch strip from an 1872 issue of Frank Leslie's Illustrated Weekly. Kind of sadistic humor as the punchline is a baby being injured by a pair of scissors that gets wrapped up in it's diaper.