STRANGE TALES #110 Club!
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1 minute ago, namisgr said:

What makes you think there's more wobble in page quality grading than in structural grading?

 

There's two reasons why I think there's similar variability.  First, I always make predictions on page quality and numerical grade on all of my CGC submissions.  Based on this experience, I'm roughly equally good (equally bad?) at pegging the two.  

 

Second, years ago before he joined CGC, Matt Nelson ran a grading contest at 3 or 4 summer comic shows.  Each participant was given the same 20 books spanning the golden, silver, and bronze ages, and predicted the page quality and numerical grades.  Then the comics were submitted to CGC and the results tabulated later.  Most people were roughly as good guessing page quality as numerical grade.  As for me, I was about 65% correct on each.

 

I really don't understand why some people use the wobble in page quality grading to dismiss it out of hand, yet make buying decisions worth hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars based on a structural numerical grade that has just as much wobble.

Dismissal is sort of heavy handed, but I certainly put less stake in it.

 

I don't find the two debate points comparable, to be honest.  A Strange Tales 110 in 3.0 has verified price points.  If I think my 3.0 is a 4.0, or a 2.0, that's a big mistake, monetarily.  If I peg the grade and miss the PQ by 1 or 2 levels, not nearly as big of a price swing.  There are very clearly collectors that pay attention to page quality, and those that don't.  A 3.0 with OW/W pages isn't going to bring a substantial premium over another 3.0 with OW pages.

 

I guess that's the danger of trusting the label.  I've got books on both side of the spectrum, as I'm sure you and almost everyone else does.  I've got 7.0's that look like 8.5's, and I've got 9.2's that look like 7.5's.  :shrug:   Point being, the grade in the top left corner is the primary factor in deciding value, not the page quality.  

 

What is it a lot of the old timers say?  Buy the book, not the label?  That speaks to your point about variances in grading, and I'm not disputing it, only that the grade matters WAY more (to most) than the page quality, and that's why I tend to be flippant about that particular element of the grading process.  

 

Just my two cents, relevant, off-topic, or not. :hi: 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, namisgr said:

What makes you think there's more wobble in page quality grading than in structural grading?

 

There's two reasons why I think there's similar variability.  First, I always make predictions on page quality and numerical grade on all of my CGC submissions.  Based on this experience, I'm roughly equally good (equally bad?) at pegging the two.  

 

Second, years ago before he joined CGC, Matt Nelson ran a grading contest at 3 or 4 summer comic shows.  Each participant was given the same 20 books spanning the golden, silver, and bronze ages, and predicted the page quality and numerical grades.  Then the comics were submitted to CGC and the results tabulated later.  Most people were roughly as good guessing page quality as numerical grade.  As for me, I was about 65% correct on each.

 

I really don't understand why some people use the wobble in page quality grading to dismiss it out of hand, yet make buying decisions worth hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars based on a structural numerical grade that has just as much wobble.

Simple.  

Because it is much easier (ie, actually possible) to independently assesss the structural grade of a book through a slab.  Even more so with the assistance of graders' notes.  

You CANNOT, on the other hand, assess the "quality" of the "pages" through a slab, despite the howls of protests from a few who repeatedly (and mistakenly) confuse "page 'quality'" with the literal colour of the pages (actually the cover themselves).

Also, and I hate to break it to You, but even CGC will tell you that the so-called "PQ" that you see referenced on the label is just a snap shot at the time of grading, and can in fact degrade over time within the slab, even under the most optimal of storing conditions.

So be careful about going out of your way to pay any sort of significant "premium" for a book that says it has "white pages" on the label, because it might not have that anymore (or it might, depending on how many times you crack and resub it. lol )

-J. 

Edited by Jaydogrules

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41 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

So be careful about going out of your way to pay any sort of significant "premium" for a book that says it has "white pages" on the label, because it might not have that anymore (or it might, depending on how many times you crack and resub it. lol )

-J. 

This is precisely the type of dismissal I referred to.  Just because the front and back covers can be seen through a slab doesn't in any way lessen the considerable wobble in the numerical grading process.  Even with a raw comic in hand and an experienced grader, one is only sometimes able to accurately predict the numerical grade that a book will receive.  In spite of this, there are enormous differences paid for books depending on a metric, numerical grade, that wobbles from submission to submission and day to day.  To dismiss page quality grading because it has inherent wobble while on the other hand making purchasing decisions for thousands of dollars or more on the numerical grading that has comparable inherent wobble makes no sense.

 

As for the risk of change over time in the slab, the numerical grade is more at risk than the page quality.  Provided one doesn't subject their slabs to a roasting hot garage, page quality will be relatively stable, if still wobbly.  The structural grade, however, is not only equally wobbly but is vulnerable to shaken comic syndrome, warping within the slab, staple rusting, and sunlight-driven cover fading, and there are plenty of examples of comics that most would agree are no longer deserving of the numerical grade on their cases.

Edited by namisgr

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38 minutes ago, namisgr said:

This is precisely the type of dismissal I referred to.  Just because the front and back covers can be seen through a slab doesn't in any way lessen the considerable wobble in the numerical grading process.  Even with a raw comic in hand and an experienced grader, one is only sometimes able to accurately predict the numerical grade that a book will receive.  In spite of this, there are enormous differences paid for books depending on a metric, numerical grade, that wobbles from submission to submission and day to day.  To dismiss page quality grading because it has inherent wobble while on the other hand making purchasing decisions for thousands of dollars or more on the numerical grading that has comparable inherent wobble makes no sense.

 

As for the risk of change over time in the slab, the numerical grade is more at risk than the page quality.  Provided one doesn't subject their slabs to a roasting hot garage, page quality will be relatively stable, if still wobbly.  The structural grade, however, is not only equally wobbly but is vulnerable to shaken comic syndrome, warping within the slab, staple rusting, and sunlight-driven cover fading, and there are plenty of examples of comics that most would agree are no longer deserving of the numerical grade on their cases.

All of those defects are visible through a slab.  

"Page Quality" (ie the suppleness, the "feel" of the paper) is not.  

-J.

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6 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

All of those defects are visible through a slab.  

"Page Quality" (ie the suppleness, the "feel" of the paper) is not.  

-J.

Sometimes only if one has the slab in hand.  Lots of astonishingly high prices have been paid for comics with shaken comic syndrome.

 

And page quality isn't the 'feel' of the paper, until the paper starts to become brittle.  It's the color of the paper, which is why the grades are named as colors.

 

From the Comics Price Guide:  The deterioration of the quality of the pages is due to aging and or incorrect storage. This can include pages changing color from its original color of white to cream colored pages or as severely degraded as tan pages with brittleness.

Edited by namisgr

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62 posts

I can finally join the club! Here's my ticket -

 

 

IMG_0638.JPG

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Very pretty copy for the grade -- congrats!

Dan

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17 minutes ago, Drummy said:

Very pretty copy for the grade -- congrats!

Dan

Seconded! WTTC!

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Here is my copy.   It is the foreign edition published by La Prensa in Mexico but distributed all over South and Latin America and Spain.    The publisher had a bi weekly cycle to keep the press running so was common to merge titles    In this case strange tales was included with fantastic four title.   They also took some editorial liberty on coloring    This issue was given a white background    Probably to cut ink cost    

 

 

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That's just the splash page someone made into a cover - don't think it was ever considered for the actual cover to ST110

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It's from long-time board member and intensive Doctor Strange collector Howard Hallis:

http://www.howardhallis.com/doctorstrange/customs.html

 

Howard's alternative cover series, assembled from Ditko internal pages, shows just how awesome the Strange Tales covers could have been, if only Ditko full page art had been allowed to adorn the covers for issues prior to #146, the first time Dr. Strange was granted an unsplit cover appearance, and ironically Ditko's very last SA comic work for Marvel (appropriately titled "The End At Last").

Edited by namisgr

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Happy to finally have a copy!

st110-6a.jpg

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38 minutes ago, prez said:

Happy to finally have a copy!

st110-6a.jpg

??

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56 minutes ago, KirbyJack said:

My copy, which may never leave me. Dr. Strange is some of Ditko's finest work, and it's kind of the 1st app. of the Frightful Four!

IMG_0903.thumb.JPG.99b0eb1e7bb28d5165cbfb7aabe37279.JPG

Man, you are on a major roll tonight, Jack! :golfclap:

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On 6/6/2017 at 2:24 PM, namisgr said:

It's from long-time board member and intensive Doctor Strange collector Howard Hallis:

http://www.howardhallis.com/doctorstrange/customs.html

 

Howard's alternative cover series, assembled from Ditko internal pages, shows just how awesome the Strange Tales covers could have been, if only Ditko full page art had been allowed to adorn the covers for issues prior to #146, the first time Dr. Strange was granted an unsplit cover appearance, and ironically Ditko's very last SA comic work for Marvel (appropriately titled "The End At Last").

That page is incredible!  What an awesome project and a wonderful little gift to the rest of us.

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Picked these up in a trade on Saturday at a small local show I set up at. It’s my first time owning either book!

 

5FBB5DCF-7D93-44A8-A2F4-FEE11779BF29.jpeg

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