Pretend for a moment....

[fantastic_four]

Yea, I remember Sandman in FF...kinda lame in there too as a part of that "Frightful Four" group.

 

Where did Kraven cross over to? I never saw those. He's definitely one of the better character concepts amongst the Spidey villains. And where did Scorpion cross to? I remember a single Daredevil crossover and nothing else.

 

Galactus has crossed over to Thor, Daredevil, X-Men, and several mini-series.

[fantastic_four]

Yes, they are so crappy that there's been 4 or 5 mini-series just about the Spiderman villains..remind me how many FF villains have had mini-series about them except for Dr Doom?

Silver Surfer, Galactus, the Inhumans, Black Panther, Sub-Mariner, and Warlock. Although the Inhumans and Warlock are rather B-list. Not to say FF 44 to 47 wasn't good...but like most of the Spidey villains, you really only like them when they're in with the A-list heroes (Spidey or the FF).

[underthebigw]

I don't think I'm implying it's rare--just that, when compared with other Byrne X-men, it is unbelievably undervalued. I think we've seen the beginnings of this book finally getting the recognition it deserves. Any increase in MTU would be pure demand.

 

And, when I'm talking about 9.0-9.6 books losing value, I mean that I believe there is a temporary spike in these books because of the novelty of CGC and the initially small quantities being submitted. A few years down the road and there will be surprising numbers of books in these grades in the census.

[PovertyRow]

The following five top gainers are from my area of specialty - pre-code horror. I feel that this area will continue to be sought for many many years. The guide is way off on these, and I better hustle to get 'em before April! (Damn that Wondercon for coinciding their show with the new OPG).

 

Folks who think that the GA collectors are dying off (yeesh! how pleasant to read such when one is part of the "old guard" ) and will stop generating interest have to realize that, even if that is true, we are talking at least 20 years away! (I am 52 so I sincerely HOPE I have at least 20 more years!!!). And folks like Steve Higgins and Ted Vanliew who are avid GA collectors many years my junior show there is hope for the future!

 

So in no particular order:

 

1) Startling terror Tales 11 (second appearance ('52) of that classic Cole Spider on a cover - but different layout from the '45 Suspense #8).

 

2) Captain America's Weird tales 75 - it does not exist at any of the guide prices when accurately graded.

 

3) Mister Mystery 13 - as fully effective as, if not more than, than #11 but not broken out the way 11 is. Then again, try to buy it anywhere near guide.

 

4) Mister Mystery #6 - grouped with #4 because of a bondage cover near the same numbering? This is one of the most legendary covers in pre-code. I believe it will break out on its own.

 

5) Black Cat Mystery #50. OK, it is broken out. But $64 in Gd? Man, I want to meet the sellers who actually sold one of these for $64 in Fair!

 

Honorable Mention to: Menace #11. Actually the entire run of Menace is under-priced in the guide. #11 is the key and it is just grouped with 7,8 and 10 and not even a mention of 11 as anything special in OPG (they do make little notes on 7, 8 and 10). Iit is often referred to as "The Broken Neck cover and is legend amoung pre-code horror fans. It is valued at $265 in NM 9.4. I will buy every single copy in existence for that price if it means I have to sell everything I own! I mention the entire run of Menace because this is without doubt the toughest Atlas pre-code series to collect.

 

As far as the top five losing values? I make no guesses so I guess Bob will not be inviting me to be a senior advisor. I do know that none of the pre-code horrors will be losers. All will increase. My assumption will be the modern books that are currently on ebay at eyebrow raising prices (when cgc'd) will be the first to plummet.

 

[Bonds25]

I forgot one pick for gainers - Albedo #2. If Overstreet doesn't up this from the outrageous, insulting, and comically low price of $14, his guide is a joke. Bronty has a POS FN copy on Ebay now that is over $200, and the 9.2 copy sold for over $500.

[murph0]

I didn't realize SS, Submariner, BP, or Warlock were villains? They might've been for 1 or 2 issues?

 

Brian

[murph0]

Not to mention the fact that even if they did briefly appear as villains..they certainly didn't get a series as one..whereas the Spidey villains have.

 

Brian

[underthebigw]

I didn't mean to be morbid, but there are just certain demographic realities. I've argued this with some other people on this board for some time and, recently, came across a collection that met this profile to a "T". The guy started collecting in the late 60's and bought what he liked and remembered. And he had a real sharp eye. Not a dog in the collection, which contains lots of Timely's, DC's, Dells, Capt. Marvel's etc. I'd guess average grade is a VF-. He clearly paid attention to condition back when most people simply wanted to fill holes or find even a tattered copy of a book. And all of his SA stuff was, in one way or another, related to the GA books he loved as a kid (big Capt. America fan). The guy retired a few years ago and was moving into a senior/assisted living place down south and was struggling with the idea of selling the collection or storing it with a son and his family, who he was unsure would care for it. I've still got this deal on the back- burner because he chose the latter option, but he's still considering selling it to me. As a parting gift, he sold me one of his few mid-grade books, a real nice GA Cap. America. Gorgeous. My first issue. Anyway, this guy is the typical example--even though he's still alive, the financial needs associated with retirement, downsizing of residences, and moving will all start to force a generation of collectors to sell off their prized belongings. And, sadly, people do pass away also. All you can do is hope they had fun with their stuff while they had it and provide a safe place for their treasures when they become yours.

[PovertyRow]

I didn't mean to be morbid, but there are just certain demographic realities.

 

I hope you appreciate my tongue was in my cheek! But I WILL say this for a fact. I am amoung the absolute oldest GA collectors I have ever met. Hanging out in sonme of the great Boston Area comic shops for years I got to know a slew of collectors and most of them were GA - and I was old enough to be the father of most of them! Same at the cons I have attended over the years. Sure there are a few old enough to be MY father but the majority were a generation or two younger. So I have hope for the future of GA interest!

 

You have any opinions on my choices?

[drbanner]

I'm with Pov, and those who think that GA will not be collected, and continue to be more valuable than SA and BA, in 10..20...30 years and beyond are out of touch with reality. I can tell you that here in NC, just about every serious collector is interested in golden age (in addition to silver/bronze). And they're all 30-ish, meaning they started reading/collecting books in the 70's, so golden age collectors are not all 65 year old guys who read the books when they were 10. Golden Age Batman, Superman, Captain America, pre-code horror, Golden Age Sci-fi, WWII covered books...these books have appeal beyond the comic book characters they contain, they have appeal as pieces of American History and Nostalgia. They reflect the history of the times. They're antiques!!

 

Pop culture collectibles are strong, and 50-60 year old comic books (and early silver age) have much more "Wow!" appeal to non-comic book collectors than 70's books. None of my close friends or work associates collect comic books, but they all know I do. When we have friends over I certainly enjoy showing them my collection, and pulling out a killer Schomburg WWII era book or the 1st Spider-man or Hulk is much more interesting to non-comic book collectors than any post-1970 book. With comic book characters becoming more entrenched in society due to movies, video games, etc.,., those early/rare gems will always be sought out...

[comicwiz]

Solid picks; Strange Tales and early Archie appearances in Pep will be the surprises in the market; the Hulk 1 Ann is popular with this topic; I've always regards MTU 53 as one of the more important Bronze age books, and at one time it had apparent significance along with some of the heavy-hitters like GS X-Men and X-Men 94 because it is Byrnes first X-Men work -- I agree that it is an grossly undervalued book. The variants are always a tough call; I had a problem with choosing it in my picks, but I felt I had to take a stand -- I think the dive in X-Men 98 & 99 was an early sign of a dwindling variant market over the coming years. 35 centers are still going strong, but I would be cautious with spending too high on anything other than IF 14 or Star Wars 1.

 

As for your losers pick, not all Funny Animals are on the way down:

 

 

Killer-copy of a seminal Crumb work, not to mention the very first appearance of Maus -- and in case you don't know who Maus is:

 

ART SPIEGELMAN'S MAUS

[comicwiz]

The alien is pure instinct; it tried to "bond" with him, much like many simple-minded yet instinctual creatures who live symbiotic lives in nature do

 

Although this was more an error on Marvel's characterisation of the alien symbiote, Venom's early alien symbiote had more of a "parasitic" relationship to spider-man than a symbiotic one.

[comicwiz]

I forgot one pick for gainers - Albedo #2. If Overstreet doesn't up this from the outrageous, insulting, and comically low price of $14, his guide is a joke. Bronty has a POS FN copy on Ebay now that is over $200, and the 9.2 copy sold for over $500.

 

Albedo is just going to have to stand in line, because nothing is more insulting and outrageous than the pricing appearing in the recent Standard Catalog of Comic Books (CBG) by John Jackson, Maggie Thompson, Peter Bickford and Brent Frankenhoff; If it were not that a dear member of my family gave this book to me for Christmas, I would have tossed it out the window Christmas day. No joke!!! When I first opened the present, the first thing that drew my attention was the Zap Comix 0 cover that appeared on the front cover of the catalog. I thought, WOW, they're covering undergrounds. Now I know you would have an appreciation for this story because I've seen you bid on some first print undergrounds in the past; I open the book and flip straight to the Zap Comix listing; well, you would never believe it -- they list the NM value for a first print Zap Comix 1 at US $300!!! You want to talk absurd, this not only demonstrates to me a clear paralysis of comic market valuations, but an absurd and outrageous attempt to value something for which they have absolutely no understanding. I recently sold a CGC FN+ 6.5 copy of Zap Comix 1 for US $3000. I will likely be selling a CGC VF 8.0 copy privately for US $4500 in the next few weeks. HOW THE HECK CAN THEY POSSIBLY COME UP WITH SUCH A VALUE!!! At least Jerry Weist did some justice to the book with his Art & Comic price guide, but even Jerry's valuation at US $1500 for a NM copy is a joke. I'd buy every singly NM copy for that much money, even if I had to sell off my entire collection to do so.

 

That CBG Catalog is now permanently occupying space on a book shelf in a closet I rarely ever open. And the thing that floors me is that recently, when I had a discussion with arnoldt on the topic of a new underground price guide, he mentioned that Peter Bickford et al. were working on one. I cautioned him on the need to get in touch with the underground comix community before publishing this new guide (namely Jay Kennedy), but according to arnoldt, they seemed to have things under control. YEAH, RIGHT! After seeing how badly out of touch with reality they were with their comic book valuations for both mainstream and undergrounds in this catalog, I can't ever imagine their newest price guide doing anything more than severely of underground collectors.

[Bonds25]

I can feel your frustration - some of the values are bordering on the absurd.

[Crowzilla]

I recently sold a CGC FN+ 6.5 copy of Zap Comix 1 for US $3000. I will likely be selling a CGC VF 8.0 copy privately for US $4500 in the next few weeks

 

Holy Moley Wiz - I think you've finally given me inspiration to get off my butt, dig out my copies and send you scans of them as I promised to long ago.

 

[Crowzilla]

Speaking of those 35¢ cover price variants, does anyone know how to get ahold

of or have an e-mail for Jon McClure?

Donut? Anyone...? Anyone...?

 

[comicwiz]

Holy Moley Wiz - I think you've finally given me inspiration to get off my butt, dig out my copies and send you scans of them as I promised to long ago.

 

bring 'em on baby

[FlyingDonut]

he is somewhere in Oregon. I don't have his email anymore. pauL?

[blowout]

Which is why almost none of those guys have crossed over to other titles like a Venom, Dr. Doom, or Galactus.

 

Ok, of Spider-Mans major villains only Venom has appeared outside of the Spidey titles?

I beg to differ..........below are some of Spider-Mans foes and some of titles they have appeared in other than ASM, Web Of etc.

 

Doctor Octopus - Fantastic Four

The Sandman - Fantastic Four, Thuderbolts.

The Lizard - Prime

Electro - Daredevil

Kraven The Hunter - Strange Tales, Marvel Chillers

The Green Goblin - Fantastic Four, Mutant X

The Kingpin - Daredevil, X-Men

Morbius - Dr. Strange, Blade, Fear, Marvel Premiere, Marvel Team-Up, Giant-Size Super Heroes

Man-Wolf - Creatures On The Loose, Fantastic Four, Savage She-Hulk, Marvel Premiere, Giant-Size Super Heroes

The Punisher - Too numerous to mention

The Hobgoblin - Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Darkhawk, Power Pack

 

I am sure there are others that I have missed but I think this illustrates the point.

 

 

 

[Zonker]

So no way I've researched the market as well as others on this board, so I'll just make an observation on something I've expected to happen to a much greater degree long before now in Golden Age prices: The pricing break-out of more and more "classic covers" from the pack. Rationale: few if any people can afford complete runs of GA, and with first the Gerber books (10+ years ago now, I know), followed by eBay cover-scans suddenly at your fingers, and now finally CGC putting a premium on display-value versus reading-value, this is high-time to come true.

 

Two categories: WWII covers (as has been mentioned by others on this thread) and Christmas covers. This may be the year for WWII covers, with the Iraq situation making us all long for the time of moral clarity when of course Superman would be the first in line to "slap a Jap." That last reference is of course to the Action 58 cover that Overstreet did break out just last year, likely for its breathtaking anti-PC-ness!

 

WWII (a partial list only):

Action: 43, 44, 48, 53, 54, 59, 62, 63, 66, 67

Adventure: 78, 82, 86, 91

Batman 13, 15, 17

Bulletman 6

Captain America 22, 25, 27... (ok in this case maybe too many to break-out!)

Captain Marvel Adventures: 5, 8, 14, 16, 17

Captain Marvel Jr: 9, 10, 11,12, 13, 15, 25

Master 37, 38, 39, 40

National Comics 25, 26, 27

Spy Smasher 8, 9, 10, 11

Star-Spangled 28

Whiz 33, 44

World's Finest 5, 6, 7, 8, 11 (9 is broken out already)

 

Christmas (ditto)

Action 93

Cap Jr 14

Comic Cavalcade 5, 13, 19, 25 (though 13 commands a premium for Soloman Grundy)

Sensation 38

 

Cheers,

Z.