THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[Glassman10]

2 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

I have noticed that and GPA is far from an exhaustive study of pricing. They won't do unslabbed books and they don't reflect actual sales from a number of dealers for whatever reason. I've seen reported sales where the price suddenly changes after about six weeks. I've been told that some auctions aren't listed with them due to  manipulation of bids and I don't know if that's true . The dealer handling my AF15  seems to think his pricing is going to move books just fine despite the GPA reporting. If it really is supposed to be an exhaustive study of value on such as AF15, it should work a bit harder in my opinion unless it's the case that those dealers don't want their sales reported. 

[Bomber-Bob]

6 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I bought that book well before the Ewert news broke.

I'm fairly certain that book was untouched. It was just naturally awesome.

But Ewert was putting many micro trimmed books into the marketplace for a long time before getting caught.  Somebody compiled a list of the books he sold in just a short, maybe 6 month period, in 2005 alone and there were 5 Hulk 181's listed......  He was literally pumping these books into the marketplace, massive quantities. He had teamed up with Brulato, at one time they were called V.I.A. I think. Brulato was the financial backer and Jason did the 'work' I got stuck with a few of these. One was a blue label that CGC missed. A couple more CGC caught. The scary part is I'm sure many of these books are still out there.

23-Jun-05 … 6540362607 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.6 … … W … $4,051.51 … 0703021007
28-Aug-05 … 6555342301 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.4 … … W … $2,050.24 … 0703021008
14-Apr-05 … 6524294336 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.4 … … … $2,135.65 … 0098365009
28-Mar-05 … 6520684024 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.4 … … … $2,175.00 … 0098482001
28-Jul-05 … 6548051506 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.2 … … … $1,125.00 … 0708994002

[peewee22]

25 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

But Ewert was putting many micro trimmed books into the marketplace for a long time before getting caught.  Somebody compiled a list of the books he sold in just a short, maybe 6 month period, in 2005 alone and there were 5 Hulk 181's listed......  He was literally pumping these books into the marketplace, massive quantities. He had teamed up with Brulato, at one time they were called V.I.A. I think. Brulato was the financial backer and Jason did the 'work' I got stuck with a few of these. One was a blue label that CGC missed. A couple more CGC caught. The scary part is I'm sure many of these books are still out there.

23-Jun-05 … 6540362607 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.6 … … W … $4,051.51 … 0703021007
28-Aug-05 … 6555342301 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.4 … … W … $2,050.24 … 0703021008
14-Apr-05 … 6524294336 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.4 … … … $2,135.65 … 0098365009
28-Mar-05 … 6520684024 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.4 … … … $2,175.00 … 0098482001
28-Jul-05 … 6548051506 … Incredible Hulk … 181 … 9.2 … … … $1,125.00 … 0708994002

[Bomber-Bob]

17 minutes ago, peewee22 said:

A couple of the 'worked on' books I bought, at a convention , raw from Ewert and Brulato, were from circa 1999, maybe 2000 ish. They were active for years before getting 'caught'.  It was amazing at the inventory these guys had, in uber high grades no less.  

[delekkerste]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Highly doubt this copy would receive even a 9.8 without some additional revenue generating work being done to it.  With Matt Nelson and the current grading team in place, although grading standards may have relaxed in certain areas, it seems that creases and stress lines have moved right to the top of their hit parade when it comes to grading.  Different time periods and different grading standards, but how convenient that this subtle but significant change helps both the top line and the bottom line of their parent company. 

Interesting to note that everybody that has seen the book feels that it is overgraded and I have yet to hear even 1 person say that it was properly graded at a CGC 9.9 level:

Based upon your last sentence, this is exactly why I believe you will never ever see this copy removed from its current slab.  Even with additional work done on the book, it is highly doubtful that it would ever see the same CGC 9.9 grade again.  

I can't speak to the current grading regime at CGC, but, even in my casual observer capacity, I have certainly seen a number of worse looking 9.8s than this one would be in the time since I retired from slab collecting in 2004.  So, I feel confident that my earlier statement is true - easily a 9.8 based on the standards that have *largely prevailed* since I left that part of the hobby.

Regardless, there's no way this copy would ever be removed from the slab, so any talk of regrading or resubmission is just idle chatter anyway!! 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

A couple of the 'worked on' books I bought, at a convention , raw from Ewert and Brulato, were from circa 1999, maybe 2000 ish. They were active for years before getting 'caught'. 

This is the first I remember hearing about this going that far back.

[jimjum12]

14 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

A couple of the 'worked on' books I bought, at a convention , raw from Ewert and Brulato, were from circa 1999, maybe 2000 ish. They were active for years before getting 'caught'. 

This is the first I remember hearing

In the spirit of fairness, Bob...... did any of the books you bought from Brulato/Ewart come back as unrestored ? I ask because it seems the underlying assumption/message is that EVERY book they touched was "worked on"..... which I'm not sure I'm on board with that. Providing a list of Hulk 181's in higher grade that were submitted by Ewart and assuming they all have hidden restoration is unfair IMHO..... maybe it's the choice of that book, I mean, let's face it, IH 181 is fairly easy to find in unrestored high grade.... especially back then. Now if they had submitted 5 copies of HULK # 2 that all received a 9.4, I might raise my eyebrows a bit more. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited September 3, 2017 by jimjum12

[peewee22]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

This is the first I remember hearing about this going that far back.

Roy, like I posted earlier I purchased an AF15 in the early 90s (maybe late 80s) from JE and the top left corner was as sharp as a golden arrow. Trimmed of course. This was pre grading days but it tells us he may have been involved with this type of activity for decades.

Edited September 3, 2017 by peewee22

[silverweb]

6 hours ago, zhamlau said:

You have to, because it seems GPA isnt keeping very accurate records of public sales these days. Anyone else notice that many 5.0+ sales of note arent showing up on GPA? The 57k one still isnt there, and that was like 6 months ago I believe.

Who was the seller on the 5.0 book for 57K?  Why wouldn't GPA record that?

[VintageComics]

12 minutes ago, peewee22 said:

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

2 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

A couple of the 'worked on' books I bought, at a convention , raw from Ewert and Brulato, were from circa 1999, maybe 2000 ish. They were active for years before getting 'caught'. 

This is the first I remember hearing

In the spirit of fairness, Bob...... did any of the books you bought from Brulato/Ewart come back as unrestored ? I ask because it seems the underlying assumption/message is that EVERY book they touched was "worked on"..... which I'm not sure I'm on board with that. Providing a list of Hulk 181's in higher grade that were submitted by Ewart and assuming they all have hidden restoration is unfair IMHO..... maybe it's the choice of that book, I mean, let's face it, IH 181 is fairly easy to find in unrestored high grade.... especially back then. Now if they had submitted 5 copies of HULK # 2 that all received a 9.4, I might raise my eyebrows a bit more. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited 1 hour ago by jimjum12

Ewert was an aggressive buyer and on top of that, it's worth noting that high grade bronze was easy to find until recently.

10 yeats ago I could leave a show with literally 100's of high grade candidates including BA keys. I bought stacks of them back in the day.

I'm not excusing trimming all I'm trying to do is show that many if not most books would not have been candidates back then.

[blazingbob]

I didn't think Hulk 181's had overhangs that could be trimmed.

[s14roller]

34 minutes ago, silverweb said:

Who was the seller on the 5.0 book for 57K?  Why wouldn't GPA record that?

I believe Moondog on the forums helped with that sale on ComicConnect.  Apparently those sales need to be manually submitted thus the delay.

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

One was a blue label that CGC missed. A couple more CGC caught. The scary part is I'm sure many of these books are still out there.

Were these copies caught by CGC before anybody even knew what Ewert was doing or were these only caught by CGC after the fact when they specifically went looking for these books as part of their review to quell the out roar of the marketplace? 

I am sure that many of these uber HG books have probably had this type of work done to them.  But is it really that scary when nobody, including CGC, can't tell the difference with any degree of confidence at all.  After all, the only way we even found out about this whole fiasco was when we had before and after pictures of the book in question and one of the board members had magnified the scan up to the 64th degree or something like that. 

Boy, what a raucous and riotous period of time and innocence lost that was for CGC and their avid followers when this whole micro trimming and pressing fiasco first came to light. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by lou_fine

[peewee22]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Were these copies caught by CGC before anybody even knew what Ewert was doing or were these only caught by CGC after the fact when they specifically went looking for these books as part of their review to quell the out roar of the marketplace? 

I am sure that many of these uber HG books have probably had this type of work done to them.  But is it really that scary when nobody, including CGC, can't tell the difference with any degree of confidence at all.  After all, the only way we even found out about this whole fiasco was when we had before and after pictures of the book in question and one of the board members had magnified the scan up to the 64th degree or something like that. 

Boy, what a raucous and riotous period of time and innocence lost that was for CGC and their avid followers when this whole micro trimming and pressing fiasco first came to light. 

It probably helped CGC going forward to modify it's methods of detecting/viewing resto, trimming, pressing, etc. Sometimes the bad guys help the good guys. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by peewee22

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Were these copies caught by CGC before anybody even knew what Ewert was doing or were these only caught by CGC after the fact when they specifically went looking for these books as part of their review to quell the out roar of the marketplace? 

I am sure that many of these uber HG books have probably had this type of work done to them.  But is it really that scary when nobody, including CGC, can't tell the difference with any degree of confidence at all.  After all, the only way we even found out about this whole fiasco was when we had before and after pictures of the book in question and one of the board members had magnified the scan up to the 64th degree or something like that. 

Boy, what a raucous and riotous period of time and innocence lost that was for CGC and their avid followers when this whole micro trimming and pressing fiasco first came to light. 

I specifically remember buying a raw, high grade ASM 11 from Ewert/Brulato, one of the last books I needed to complete the run. Later, during the con, I showed it to a prominent dealer. He said what's wrong with it ? I asked, what do you mean ? He said if you got it from those guys, trust me, something was wrong with it. Many years later, when I submitted the book to CGC, color touch and trimming.  I also heard they invented the fingernail clipper 'trick' for those corners. My point, their reputation was widespread and legendary. 

@jimjum12  I only listed the IH181's to show the quantity these guys were dealing.  They never had drek, only very high grade stuff, Silver and Bronze. Were they all worked on? I hope not . I did not buy a lot of books from them, they were very pricey, and I only saw them a couple times at a con. The memory is vague but I think 3 of 5 books I submitted were Purple. BTW, years ago I contacted Brulato about some of my purple books. He said he had nothing to do with it, all Ewert. So, in all fairness(your term), do you think I am the only one they screwed ? 

[Bomber-Bob]

5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Ewert was an aggressive buyer and on top of that, it's worth noting that high grade bronze was easy to find until recently.

10 yeats ago I could leave a show with literally 100's of high grade candidates including BA keys. I bought stacks of them back in the day.

I'm not excusing trimming all I'm trying to do is show that many if not most books would not have been candidates back then.

Not all Bronze, lots of Silver.  I didn't know uber high grade ASM 21's were this easy to find . ....

22-Sep-05 … 6561872362 … Amazing Spider-Man … 21 … 9.4 … … OW … $2,075.99 … 0069977001
22-Aug-05 … 6553842144 … Amazing Spider-Man … 21 … 9.4 … … … $2,052.57 … 0703096002
09-Jun-05 … 6536909094 … Amazing Spider-Man … 21 … 9.4 … … OWW … $1,930.00 … 0703021003
09-Jun-05 … 6536909386 … Amazing Spider-Man … 21 … 8.5 … … OW … $308.00 … 0709125007

[Bomber-Bob]

Bronze but for this era, the abundance of uber grades were unheard of at the time......

30-Jun-05 … 6541669111 … X-Men … 94 … 9.6 … … W … $5,850.07 … 0703059002
17-Aug-05 … 6552723601 … X-Men … 94 … 9.4 … … W … $1,875.00 … 0703067001
22-May-05 … 6531828292 … X-Men … 94 … 9.4 … … W … $1,802.00 … 0705533001
17-Aug-05 … 6552714316 … X-Men … 95 … 9.8 … … OW … $1,475.00 … 0002053004
30-Jun-05 … 6541775000 … X-Men … 95 … 9.8 … … W … $1,580.00 … 0002053003
30-Jun-05 … 6541776566 … X-Men … 96 … 9.8 … … W … $2,026.26 … 0002053008
17-Aug-05 … 6552724413 … X-Men … 96 … 9.6 … … W … $362.57 … 0002053007

Edited September 4, 2017 by Bomber-Bob

[Bomber-Bob]

Yes, back in 2005 the high grade books were just so easily available, that must explain it. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, he probably had a really good eye.  Maybe he had Greggy buying for him back in the day !

1-Jun-05 … 6539852696 … Amazing Spider-Man … 121 … 9.6 … … W … $1,252.56 … 0703021004
02-Mar-05 … 6514359447 … Amazing Spider-Man … 121 … 9.6 … … W … $1,300.00 … 
22-Aug-05 … 6553860499 … Amazing Spider-Man … 121 … 9.4 … … … $570.00 … 0708991012
21-Jun-05 … 6539853655 … Amazing Spider-Man … 121 … 8.0 … … W … $152.73 … 0708990001
 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Bomber-Bob

[lou_fine]

11 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Yes, back in 2005 the high grade books were just so easily available, that must be explain it. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, he probably had a really good eye.  Maybe he had Greggy buying for him back in the day !

I believe Ewert's initial reputation was for having the sharpest eyes in the business as he was seemingly always able to pull 9.6's and 9.8's out of the long boxes like nobody else could? 

I guess it wasn't his eyes that were sharpest in the business, as opposed to having the sharpest blades in the business. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by lou_fine

[peewee22]