THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB
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On 2/27/2020 at 8:53 PM, VintageComics said:

So, I disagree that the more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed because these all appear on unpressed books and are not products of pressing.

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  :devil:

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1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  :devil:

The great flaw of this board is that you can't speak your mind without retribution. I don't own or trade in comics at this point which is quite freeing.  ( until you're blocked) . Loosing money elsewhere works for me. The board on glass that I run , I'm loath to censor or limit content unless it's blatantly wrong . It has over 1000 members.  The trouble here is the effect on business. Can't have that! Really reassuring , right?  There's a price to be paid for establishing that you have integrity. 

Edited by Glassman10

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4 hours ago, lou_fine said:
On 2/27/2020 at 11:53 PM, VintageComics said:

So, I disagree that the more of these stigmata a book has, the more likely it's been pressed because these all appear on unpressed books and are not products of pressing.

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  

There's an easy way to test this.

Just start going through any books that are printed on the type of newsprint that SA/BA/CA Marvels are printed on. Walk a show floor and you'll find 100,000's of books.

Only look for low grade beaters that certainly haven't been pressed and you'll see the same phenomenon that you see on higher grade copies: Page sizes vary, whether a book has been pressed or not. It's that simple.

You could literally find 1000 copies of the same book and depending on how it was stored the pages will vary in size from copy to copy.

Would that be a sample size large enough that you could take as hard fact?

 

3 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

There's a price to be paid for establishing that you have integrity. 

Are you saying in a roundabout PC way that some people posting here are lacking integrity?

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14 hours ago, namisgr said:

:facepalm:

Except for the hundreds of thousands of comics >40 years old that have covers and interior pages well aligned, then yeah.  Like virtually all of the comics in the Pacific Coast, Curator, Massachusetts, White Mountain, Boston, Twin Cities, Northland, and Winnipeg pedigree collections, all of which but the TCs having been brought to market in the days before CGC and rampant pressing.  What a coincidence.

Wait, so what you're saying is that those comics were 20 years newer back then.

An FF #1 was only 38 years old when CGC started.

A Hulk #181 was only 25 years old.

For one, paper changes in 20 years.

2nd, you don't NOTICE things until you start looking for them.

I NEVER cared about miswraps until I joined this chat forum and people were talking about them. I was blind to them as I just assumed it was a normal thing. Then when people started talking about them I started noticing them.

I'd need to see pictures of comics from 20-30 and 40 years ago to document whether paper was changing size or not back then.

But if paper DIDN'T change size back then, and all comics were trimmed on 3 sides then how did the 'Marvel overhang' ever come into existence? It's been a 'thing' for as long as I can remember.

Did Marvel's not have overhang before CGC and pressing became a thing? :makepoint:

13 hours ago, namisgr said:

If you want to bring imperceptible changes in paper into the discussion, then yeah.  But the subject is pages sticking way out from covers on early SA Marvels.  And with the hobby's long-time experience with the many pedigree collections brought to market in the days before CGC opened its doors and all virtually all high grade Silver began to be pressed, it's readily apparent that the vast majority of early SA Marvels survived 40 years and more without changes in paper size so perceptible they make the pages stick way out from the cover.  The phenomenon is so much more prevalent today than before because of changes in paper that sometimes happen from pressing, and that pedigree comics have been subjected to an overwhelming degree over the past 15 years.

 

Marvel Overhang.

Mic drop.

 

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Posted (edited)

With 4 days left in the bidding, the AF15 in cgc 9.4 grade is at $504,000.  I'm sure it'll take the live bidding to settle the winner.

Edited by namisgr

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21 hours ago, gadzukes said:

This restored Voldemort claims to have "pieces added" "color touch" but I can't for the life of me detect anything original on the front cover.  Does it look way off to you guys?  It looks like a weird color copy with color touch on it.

Pretty deceptive if that's what it is.

Maybe labels should say what the percentage of original cover is.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Fantasy-15-CBCS-9-0-HIGH-GRADE-SS-STAN-LEE-SIGNED-AF15-COMIC-BOOK/323635929813?hash=item4b5a3462d5:g:8yYAAOSwMHtbjTTj

Unless I’m reading incorrectly, the label states Professional Restoration includes... in the description, but then says EXT Amateur above the grade.  Typo?

Anyhow, I agree.  Something about the book looks “unnatural”.

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16 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Or is it possible that we are now seeing a lot more of these due to the relatively poorer quality of the pressing work now being performed by a certain pressing company in the post-Nelson era that shall remain nameless for obvious reasons?  hm  :devil:

Wouldn't it be more likely that it's because of some of the pressers that post videos of themselves on youtube introducing humidity chambers in to the equation?

How many of these do it your selfers out there work there way up to high end books?

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8 hours ago, namisgr said:

With 4 days left in the bidding, the AF15 in cgc 9.4 grade is at $504,000.  I'm sure it'll take the live bidding to settle the winner.

guessing 650-700

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20 hours ago, namisgr said:

I bought thousands of brand new Marvel comics in the Bronze Age, and many of them came with the top edge and/or top and bottom corners hanging a little bit over the pages.  Many of the Annuals and Giant-Size BA Marvels also came off the printing press with the cover hanging over the pages along the right edge, too.  Surely you must know these things.  As for books with overhang that develops over decades, they're the result of the interior pages shrinking relative to the cover paper, a process that is guaranteed to not be responsible for pages sticking out from their covers along the right edge.

Your math exercise on aging comics is off base.  I had a collection of a slew of unpressed early SA Marvels until just a few years ago, virtually all without interior pages sticking out from the covers.  The same is true having seen thousands more from dealer inventories and collections in the 1990s.  So no, most of these comics didn't survive their first 40 years looking practically like the day they rolled off the presses and then suddenly over the next 10 develop the stigmata of pressing, including covers retracted from interior pages and other defects, from natural causes.

But what I most take away from your posts here is that you are poor at detecting whether a comic has been pressed or not, thinking erroneously about the unpressed Pacific Coast copy of ASM #11 and failing to recognize how many early SA Marvels on the market over the past 10-15 years bear multiple stigmata of pressing that virtually assures they've been manipulated.  Couple poor detection skills with the incentive of a dealer for whom pressing is a central part of their business ("following the money", as you like to say), spreading the mantra that pressing is undetectable even for early SA Marvels, and you've buried your head in the sand over the matter. 

Bob, you are just unable to have a conversation without personally insulting people.

I'll respond tomorrow as it's been a long day travelling from Chicago but I'll just say that you are incapable of having an honest conversation when you're emotionally invested.

You accuse me of the same things when I discuss natural / alternative health that you are guilty of in this conversation.

Unbelievable.

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On 2/26/2020 at 10:12 AM, VintageComics said:

 

Yes. I've noticed this as well.

And as an interesting side note, I have a theory as to why.

Years ago I picked up an original owner Marvel SA collection from off continent and all of the issues that were notorious for off center miswraps were perfectly centered.

I attributed it to those issue being early off the presses (because they had to travel further to reach the newsstand) and therefore have stronger production quality.

I just went back to look at the AF #15 from this batch, and you guessed it, it was nearly perfectly centered with only the tip of the A touching the spine, the circle fully present on the left and the comics code fully present on the right.

As was the FF #48 and all other issues that are normally poorly centered.

 

 

Or the buyer could have been the same anal nutjob that I was as a kid, and cherry picked the copy that he thought was the nicest looking.

:baiting:

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On 2/29/2020 at 9:41 PM, VintageComics said:

 

 

 

Are you saying in a roundabout PC way that some people posting here are lacking integrity?

No, I'm suggesting that speaking your mind can get you in trouble with management. 

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20 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:
On 3/1/2020 at 4:32 AM, namisgr said:

With 4 days left in the bidding, the AF15 in cgc 9.4 grade is at $504,000.  I'm sure it'll take the live bidding to settle the winner.

guessing 650-700

It would definitely not be good news for AF 15 collectors if this ccopy did not since CC was able to sell their CGC 9.2 graded copy for $598K last summer:

https://www.comicconnect.com/item/723368?tzf=1

ama12.647a.jpg

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5 hours ago, namisgr said:

Calling you biased

Calling me anything is just immature and evading the actual discussion.

And your bias is showing because you always respond in the same way to me.

Sticking to the discussion, the facts and going back and forth on the examples each person is providing would be the mature way to do it.

Maybe one day you'll be able to do that without shooting the messenger every time you need to type a post.

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5 hours ago, sledgehammer said:

Or the buyer could have been the same anal nutjob that I was as a kid, and cherry picked the copy that he thought was the nicest looking.

:baiting:

It's possible but I have had discussions with other West Coast collectors as well and they seemed to feel the same way: That the earliest books off the presses generally ended up out West and had the least amount of defects.

Whether it's right or not I don't know for sure but it's an interesting theory that hasn't been disproven yet to my knowledge.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

I bought thousands of brand new Marvel comics in the Bronze Age, and many of them came with the top edge and/or top and bottom corners hanging a little bit over the pages.

Perfect.

So the paper shrank from the time the book was printed to the time it reached the newsstands.

It likely continues to shrink for some time I would assume, depending on storage conditions.

But how do you explain books that have all the edges matching perfectly from the SA and BA - and I know they are not trimmed because you can see the cutter blade score marks match across all the wraps of the book so unless a trimmer took the time to create those score marks (which would be a waste of time on most books) there must be an explanation for why some books have overhang and others don't.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

Many of the Annuals and Giant-Size BA Marvels also came off the printing press with the cover hanging over the pages along the right edge, too.  

Yep. But they also have paper in varying size where on some the cover matches right up and on others the covers are longer than the pages, even though they were trimmed all the same initially.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

Surely you must know these things.

I don't want to flex here but at this point I've probably handled more raw comics and looked at them more closely than you. Yes, I know these things.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

As for books with overhang that develops over decades, they're the result of the interior pages shrinking relative to the cover paper, a process that is guaranteed to not be responsible for pages sticking out from their covers along the right edge.

Wait, you're saying that the paper changes size longitudinally but not laterally?

How is that even possible?

When wood shrinks or changes size it's affected in all directions, not just one. But you're saying paper only moves in one direction?

At this point, we're also are not sure if the covers are changing size, the interior pages are changing size or both.

Do you know for certain?

I spoke to a paper restoration expert and they were actually going to do a thesis on this because they weren't sure either.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

Your math exercise on aging comics is off base.  I had a collection of a slew of unpressed early SA Marvels until just a few years ago, virtually all without interior pages sticking out from the covers.  The same is true having seen thousands more from dealer inventories and collections in the 1990s.

This is called confirmation bias.

I've watched you sell off your collection over the years and watched the discussions.

The biggest one was the Cole Shave collection which became known as the Costanza discussion and you documented how many of your books were showing peeking pages.

I also remember other discussions.

But all this does is confirm the books were pressed poorly (to which CCS admitted).

But there are also literally millions of comics out there that have various 'stigmata of pressing' that were never pressed and I am asking how that can be?

I posted a picture of an AF #15 that half the people in this discussion would call pressed because the pages were sticking out and yet it wasn't pressed.

So yes, pressing can and does change books and improper pressing can exaggerate 'stigmata of pressing' but that doesn't account for the millions of books that have 'stigmata of pressing' but were never pressed.

Do you need me to go to my boxes and start posting pics of books that were never pressed that have stigmata of pressing?

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

But what I most take away from your posts here is that you are poor at detecting whether a comic has been pressed or not, thinking erroneously about the unpressed Pacific Coast copy of ASM #11 and failing to recognize how many early SA Marvels on the market over the past 10-15 years bear multiple stigmata of pressing that virtually assures they've been manipulated.

Wait, you used one example and extrapolated that I'm horrible at detecting pressing?

Is that how scientists come to their conclusions? lol What is this, grade school?

I probably handle 10,000's and possibly 100,000's of raw books every year. You don't think I know what a pressed book looks like?

That's almost as ridiculous as saying that paper moves in one direction but not another (something that is physically near impossible)

I looked at a small picture of the PC ASM #11 without my glasses and made a quick assumption. I'm sorry. I was wrong. :foryou:

Now lets really talk about it.

There are pressers who press books out there who make the books look like they are unpressed.

There are pressed books out there that don't look pressed.

There are pressed books out there that DO look pressed.

There are UNpressed books out there that DO look pressed.

I think I can likely tell MOST of them all apart better than you but I can't guarantee I'll get every one right.

So I'm not what your point was about this book except that you are trying to discredit me (yet again) rather than stick to the topic at hand.

A mature person would have just said "actually, the book hasn't been pressed' and moved on.

On 3/1/2020 at 7:06 AM, namisgr said:

 Couple poor detection skills with the incentive of a dealer for whom pressing is a central part of their business ("following the money", as you like to say), spreading the mantra that pressing is undetectable even for early SA Marvels, and you've buried your head in the sand over the matter. 

Oh look, more personal insults and no actual debate.

Or, you could just go through random boxes of low grade (nearly guaranteed unpressed) books and find examples with pages in various degrees of shrinkage and admit that maybe you might be wrong.

6 hours ago, namisgr said:

But it's fact that the hobby used to be filled with high grade early SA Marvels in the days before pressing became a cottage industry that didn't bear the stigmata of pressing.  This includes each and every SA pedigree collection, despite the paper having aged for 40 or more years.  And it's fact that pressing can introduce one or more defects on these early SA Marvels, proven by the before-and-after physical records and observed by many hobbyists aware of and on the lookout for these defects.

Cool, let's start looking at pictures from 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20 and 10 years ago and see what these books actually looked like rather than go from memory.

Because any lawyer or police officer will tell you that your memory is the least reliable form of evidence.

People never talk in person like they do on the internet. I wonder how you would feel if someone walked into a place of business of yours and started personally insulting you and trying to discredit you?

Oh yeah, you wouldn't appreciate it.

But thanks for doing that here.

 

Edited by VintageComics

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3 hours ago, Aman619 said:

I don’t think you guys are using the word stigmata correctly, are you? Are the pages bleeding?

Only the noses are bleeding.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, sledgehammer said:

Only the noses are bleeding.

and my eyes, from reading most of the BS going around.

Edited by Gotham Kid

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