How much of a premium are we talking for newsstand issues v/s direct editions? 10 10

[slym2none]

Oh, no... please, lets not lead this thread to getting locked...

 

 

That might be a better alternative to people taking RMA's rambling as fact.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[revat]

Just because something "appears" to be less available doesn't mean it is "rare" or "scarce". And even when something actually is rare or scarce it doesn't mean it is valuable, or in this case has more value. People are trying a little too hard to rationalize over spending on a book just because it has a bar code on it. If you felt any real peace in doing so you wouldn't need to resort to personal attacks or attempts at belittling in order to justify it. You can spend your money on whatever you want, but the market at large does not put a premium on your news stand books. The people who post here represent an infinitesimal percentage of the comic book buying public. I see TONS of both versions of the few key copper books that there are always available at any given time. Newsstand versions are not rare or scarce. Nothing in the copper age is. And the vast majority of people see no reason to pay a premium. That's why there isn't any, or at least not of any consistency or significance. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

-J.

 

Then why is it so hard to find cgc 9.8 copies of the newsstand editions of comics I want? Did I imagine the 10+ copies direct editions on eBay and on various other websites? Did I imagine it when I asked various dealers and experts if they'd even seen one or could find one and they told me they never saw one? Is it all my own perception?

 

Or is it possible that we don't have enough consistent info to make blanket statements?

[Mike's Rack]

Edited March 14, 2014 by Mike's Rack

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, no... please, lets not lead this thread to getting locked...

 

 

-slym

 

That might be a better alternative to people taking RMA's rambling as fact.

 

I can back up every single comment I make with data, Dunbar.

 

I would suggest you learn how to disagree with someone without demeaning them and dismissing what they say as "rambling", without having the decency to post any data of your own.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's an example of actual data:

 

The first time the Universal Product Code was printed on comics was in early 1976.

 

Cover dates May/June for DC and Marvel.

 

Since the Direct Market was in its infancy (1), there was no distinction between Direct Market and newsstand books until Feb of 1977, at which time Marvel began the DM cover marking test program (see the "Fat Diamonds" from 1977-1979, and "skinny diamonds" from 1977-on, especially company wide from 1979-on.)

 

Since the majority of comics buyers continued to buy their comics from newsstands (2), and there were very few comics stores until the so-called "1979 explosion" (3), the vast majority of surviving comics from this period will quite obviously be newsstand copies.

 

1. "Direct Distribution" in Duin, Steve and Richardson, Mike (ed.s). Comics Between the Panels (Dark Horse Publishing, 1998), pp. 126-130.

 

2. "Demanding Respect: The Evolution of the American Comic Book" Paul Lopes pages 98-102

 

3. "Tales from the Database", Chuck Rozanski, milehighcomics.com.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Newsstand sales account for 70-100% of the market during this period.

 

Newsstand sales, however, still accounted for between 20-40% of the entire market during this period.

 

While newsstand sales still accounted for a decent chunk (10-20%), it was not significant, and when print runs plummeted in the late 90's, the newsstand was not unaffected.

 

Do you have a source for these numbers? Or is this just your speculation on the newsstand/direct market distrubution?

 

Yes, I have a source for these numbers....several, actually:

 

1. "Demanding Respect: The Evolution of the American Comic Book" by Paul Lopes, particularly chapter 4, which discusses, among other things, the arrival of the Direct Market. In particular, page 100, which discusses Marvel finding out that the Direct Market was, in 1980, approaching 30% of its total sales (from whence comes the "70-100%" figure stated earlier.)

 

2. "Comics Between the Panels" by Mike Richardson and Steve Duin, which discusses the direct market, including the information that by 1988, the direct market controlled roughly 70% of the comics distribution market between them (from whence comes the "20-40%" figure stated earlier, as well as the dwindling newsstand market and the distribution wars of the mid 90's.)

 

3. "Tales from the Database" Chuck Rozanski. Some wish to dismiss Chuck, but he's had a front row seat to 40 years of comics history, from nearly every aspect of the market, from distributor (yes, they had a distribution service) to retailer to internet store.

 

4. "The Comic Chronicles" by John Jackson Miller, who, of course, is the editor of the Krause Standard Catalog of Comic Books.

 

5. Two Men and their Comic Books (the birth of Pacific Comics) by Jay Allen Sanford. http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2004/aug/19/two-men-and-their-comic-books/

 

...and more.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

This is a very informative post, and I think a lot of collectors are misinformed and believe high grade newstand automatically equals rare.

 

Posts like this remind me it's a shame certain people troll you and look for ways to start arguments, which in turn has lead you to change your posting habits. You have a wealth of comic knowledge and I enjoy it when you share. (thumbs u

 

 

 

Thanks Maloney, I appreciate it. But, as you can see, there are people around here who can't just disagree, they have to disagree by insult, and I just don't want to be a part of that.

 

I take comics research very seriously. I treat it very seriously. One of my favorite people in this entire industry is Mark Evanier, because he's a comics historian, and one of the best in the field.

 

I take the study of the industry very seriously. Nothing I post is simply my own speculation unless I label as such. I don't sit here and just make stuff up because it sounds good.

 

So, when people come along and arrogantly dismiss what I've said, insult me in the process, and can't be bothered to post data of their own...

 

...well, it's pretty damn obnoxious, if you ask me.

 

 

Disagree. Discuss. Cite others.

 

But sit there and just demean and dismiss, and contribute nothing of your own...?

 

No thanks.

 

And none of you should tolerate it, either.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Now.

 

Why the disparity between what shows up for sale, and the claim that the books are just as common, if not moreso, in the early years of the direct market?

 

From 1976-1977, that's easy: the only copies that EXIST are newsstand copies. There was no distinction, so of course, the only copies that exist are comics with UPCs on them.

 

From 1977-1979, only MARVEL (and DC's special Whitmans) printed books with special Direct Market marking, and these were a TEST. They weren't printed for every title, and every issue, UNTIL June of 1979 cover date.

 

So, of course, nearly every high grade book by default from 1977-1979 is going to be, again, newsstand, because the direct market versions are UNCOMMON. In fact, ultra high grade "fat diamonds" from Feb 77 to Apr 79 are extremely rare, and their regular newsstand counterparts are excessively common.

 

From 1979 (when the DM went company-wide at Marvel) and 1980 (when the DM went company-wide at DC), you're STILL going to see the vast majority of copies, high grade or otherwise, as NEWSSTAND copies, because of the aforementioned smallness of the direct market (remember...only 30% of Marvel's sales from 1980.)

 

In 1981, we start to see the Direct Market flex its newfound muscles, and NOW we start to see the balance start to shift....but it happened slowly, over the next 5-6 years. In 1980, the DM's Marvel share was 30%. By 1988, it was 70%.

 

It took time.

 

Now...what about 1981-1984? Here's where the Direct Market affects the AFTER market that we see now. Since Direct Market books were NOT returnable, and the amount of stores exploded nationwide from 7-800 hundred in 1978 to 3,000 by 1981, stores began to stockpile back issues in a way that no one had before. And that's generally what we see now: back stock that slowly trickles its way, sometimes by as much as 3rd, 4th, 5th generation owners, into the market.

 

But what happened to the newsstand copies? The newsstand remained as it was: books were returnable, and were RETURNED...but the ones sold were sold to individuals, and many of those individuals kept them as part of collections...not all, obviously, but not none, either. So, if you're going to find "multiple copies in high grade", you're going to find "untouched DM store stock" much more often than large masses of newsstand copies.

 

This does not mean that there aren't many high grade newsstand copies "out there" from 1981-1984.

 

It just means that you're not going to find POCKETS of them, like you will DM copies. The newsstands copies are generally...this is a GENERALIZATION...mostly in collector hands, and often ORIGINAL collector hands, and therefore aren't as *available* on the open market, but that doesn't mean that there aren't masses of them that exist from that era.

 

Now....I began collecting in earnest in 1990. I buy multiples of the Uncanny X-Men, especially the issues from 95-143. These have been randomly assembled over the past 24 years.

 

Here is my current stock:

 

X-Men #142: 7 newsstand copies, 10 DM copies, mostly high grade.

 

X-Men #139: 10 newsstand copies, 2 DM copies.

 

X-Men #140: 11 newsstand copies, 4 DM copies, 1 pence copy.

 

The Miller DDs I don't have enough stock of, except perhaps #182-184, to make it statistically meaningful, but I do have at least 3-4 9.8 newsstand copies of each.

 

And, of course, since newsstand copies were essentially the only copies printed (early DM tests aside), then obviously from 1976-1979/80, they are going to be the only examples that are available, in any grade, high or not.

 

Like I said...1/2 as many, from the period of 1976-1984, averaged out.

 

[Mike's Rack]

Now that's what I call supporting your position I'm a better collector after having read that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Now that's what I call supporting your position I'm a better collector after having read that.

 

[revat]

Now.

 

Why the disparity between what shows up for sale, and the claim that the books are just as common, if not moreso, in the early years of the direct market?

 

From 1976-1977, that's easy: the only copies that EXIST are newsstand copies. There was no distinction, so of course, the only copies that exist are comics with UPCs on them.

 

From 1977-1979, only MARVEL (and DC's special Whitmans) printed books with special Direct Market marking, and these were a TEST. They weren't printed for every title, and every issue, UNTIL June of 1979 cover date.

 

So, of course, nearly every high grade book by default from 1977-1979 is going to be, again, newsstand, because the direct market versions are UNCOMMON. In fact, ultra high grade "fat diamonds" from Feb 77 to Apr 79 are extremely rare, and their regular newsstand counterparts are excessively common.

 

From 1979 (when the DM went company-wide at Marvel) and 1980 (when the DM went company-wide at DC), you're STILL going to see the vast majority of copies, high grade or otherwise, as NEWSSTAND copies, because of the aforementioned smallness of the direct market (remember...only 30% of Marvel's sales from 1980.)

 

In 1981, we start to see the Direct Market flex its newfound muscles, and NOW we start to see the balance start to shift....but it happened slowly, over the next 5-6 years. In 1980, the DM's Marvel share was 30%. By 1988, it was 70%.

 

It took time.

 

Now...what about 1981-1984? Here's where the Direct Market affects the AFTER market that we see now. Since Direct Market books were NOT returnable, and the amount of stores exploded nationwide from 7-800 hundred in 1978 to 3,000 by 1981, stores began to stockpile back issues in a way that no one had before. And that's generally what we see now: back stock that slowly trickles its way, sometimes by as much as 3rd, 4th, 5th generation owners, into the market.

 

But what happened to the newsstand copies? The newsstand remained as it was: books were returnable, and were RETURNED...but the ones sold were sold to individuals, and many of those individuals kept them as part of collections...not all, obviously, but not none, either. So, if you're going to find "multiple copies in high grade", you're going to find "untouched DM store stock" much more often than large masses of newsstand copies.

 

This does not mean that there aren't many high grade newsstand copies "out there" from 1981-1984.

 

It just means that you're not going to find POCKETS of them, like you will DM copies. The newsstands copies are generally...this is a GENERALIZATION...mostly in collector hands, and often ORIGINAL collector hands, and therefore aren't as *available* on the open market, but that doesn't mean that there aren't masses of them that exist from that era.

 

Now....I began collecting in earnest in 1990. I buy multiples of the Uncanny X-Men, especially the issues from 95-143. These have been randomly assembled over the past 24 years.

 

Here is my current stock:

 

X-Men #142: 7 newsstand copies, 10 DM copies, mostly high grade.

 

X-Men #139: 10 newsstand copies, 2 DM copies.

 

X-Men #140: 11 newsstand copies, 4 DM copies, 1 pence copy.

 

The Miller DDs I don't have enough stock of, except perhaps #182-184, to make it statistically meaningful, but I do have at least 3-4 9.8 newsstand copies of each.

 

And, of course, since newsstand copies were essentially the only copies printed (early DM tests aside), then obviously from 1976-1979/80, they are going to be the only examples that are available, in any grade, high or not.

 

Like I said...1/2 as many, from the period of 1976-1984, averaged out.

 

I'm not sure which side you're supporting any more (if I ever was), but this is good knowledge.

 

I will say that to the average potential buyer, they would care a little less about how many are in private collector hands, compared to how many are 'available' on the market. The disparity of equality, whether caused by print runs or disproportionate amounts kept privately or more conditional inconsistencies, has created at least a perceived scarcity of newsstand copies in CGC 9.8.

 

If I was Tnerb and Bagoffleas for example, and we wanted to get New Mutants CGC 9.8 in newsstand also, its hard for me to believe that you could do it for the exact same price and ease (I know its not easy to begin with) as with the direct market editions. And anyone who thinks it won't make a difference is actively trying to not get it. I'm not saying that EVERYONE cares, or that ANYONE should care, BUT for those that DO care, they would have to pay a premium to complete the task.

 

Some people want newsstand because they're rarer (or perceived as such), or because they're more nostalgic, or because they're completionists. THe reason doesn't matter too much. If SOME people are looking for something that's rarer in high grade, than those comics in high grade will command a premium, that's just economics. I would think that would be evident most people, but then I read this thread.

[RockMyAmadeus]

What I'm saying is...for aesthetic reasons, for nostalgic reasons, the amount of people who, like me, *prefer* Direct market copies is more (maybe slightly, maybe substantially) than the amount of people who prefer newsstand copies, and this has thus far always been true. This balances and cancels out the "premium" for ultra high grade newsstand copies. Not for individual copies, no. But averaged out, yes.

 

A newsstand run of New Mutants (both bagofleas and tnerb should be watching their behinds in the next few months. ) in 9.8 would be extremely difficult...because there aren't large pools of raw copies to draw from, like there are Direct copies. And these are 1990 books, when the newsstand was well on its way to obscurity.

 

The time frame being discussed is critical to understanding the differences.

 

And if and when the tide changes, and there DOES become a substantial premium for newsstand copies...they will come out of the woodwork, because they DO exist. If people start paying $500 for a Spidey #308 newsstand 9.8, you better believe those copies will suddenly appear.

 

They don't now because there's not a premium for them. Make that premium happen, and they will...just like all the rest of the formerly scarce Bronze/Copper/Modern books before them...all of a sudden appear on the market, if not on the census.

 

Like I said elsewhere...CGC not distinguishing between newsstand and Direct market copies in the census was a grave, grave error...which a handful of people could have told them (and maybe did tell them) in 1999, but conventional wisdom was always that it didn't matter (and, in 1999, it most certainly did not. Only a tiny, tiny handful of people were even aware of the issue. Most of the ultra scarce newsstand copies were still in the future when CGC opened its doors.) So, I don't blame them *too* much. Still, it was a shortsighted error.

[revat]

What I'm saying is...for aesthetic reasons, for nostalgic reasons, the amount of people who, like me, *prefer* Direct market copies is more (maybe slightly, maybe substantially) than the amount of people who prefer newsstand copies, and this has thus far always been true. This balances and cancels out the "premium" for ultra high grade newsstand copies. Not for individual copies, no. But averaged out, yes.

 

A newsstand run of New Mutants (both bagofleas and tnerb should be watching their behinds in the next few months. ) in 9.8 would be extremely difficult...because there aren't large pools of raw copies to draw from, like there are Direct copies. And these are 1990 books, when the newsstand was well on its way to obscurity.

 

The time frame being discussed is critical to understanding the differences.

 

And if and when the tide changes, and there DOES become a substantial premium for newsstand copies...they will come out of the woodwork, because they DO exist. If people start paying $500 for a Spidey #308 newsstand 9.8, you better believe those copies will suddenly appear.

 

They don't now because there's not a premium for them. Make that premium happen, and they will...just like all the rest of the formerly scarce Bronze/Copper/Modern books before them...all of a sudden appear on the market, if not on the census.

 

Like I said elsewhere...CGC not distinguishing between newsstand and Direct market copies in the census was a grave, grave error...which a handful of people could have told them (and maybe did tell them) in 1999, but conventional wisdom was always that it didn't matter (and, in 1999, it most certainly did not. Only a tiny, tiny handful of people were even aware of the issue. Most of the ultra scarce newsstand copies were still in the future when CGC opened its doors.) So, I don't blame them *too* much. Still, it was a shortsighted error.

 

I'm with ya, good points, sounds like you, more than most (and more than me) grasp the greys of the situation. It does suck that CGC didn't denote newsstand vs direct, and I DO agree that if/when there is a more pronounced market premium for newsstand editions, we will see more of them.

[RockMyAmadeus]

One more post on the subject...and this is supposition...educated supposition, but supposition nonetheless. Here's a handy chart about how I view the availability of ultra high grade (9.6+) newsstands vs. Direct copies by groups of years:

 

1976-1978: 100-1,000 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy.

 

1979-1980: 3-5 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy.

 

1981-1983: 1 Direct copy to every 1 newsstand.

 

1984-1987: 2-3 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1988-1990: 4-6 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1991-1993: 5-10 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1994-1997: 10-20 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

1998-2002: 40-50 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

 

2003-up: 100-1,000 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

[divad]

[Jeffro.]

 

C'mon David, you're really not helping here

[divad]

 

C'mon David, you're really not helping here

 

The thread was actually interesting before RMA comes on and says this thread is a hoot. Then he spouts alleged facts as though he was actually there. His cites don't support his conclusions, and everyone is duped (because he talks the most).

 

Do you really think that last post is any more than self-aggrandizing conjecture?

 

I don't have the time or the spirit to disagree with him. He can win all the time (it seems he needs to).

[Jeffro.]

 

C'mon David, you're really not helping here

 

The thread was actually interesting before RMA comes on and says this thread is a hoot. Then he spouts alleged facts as though he was actually there. His cites don't support his conclusions, and everyone is duped (because he talks the most).

 

Do you really think that last post is any more than self-aggrandizing conjecture?

 

Again, you're not helping. If you're that bothered by his "alleged facts" then dispute them. Otherwise, you're adding zero to the discussion.

 

 

 

I don't have the time or the spirit to disagree with him. He can win all the time (it seems he needs to).

 

I've heard that excuse on message boards for years. "I know he's wrong but I can't be bothered to prove him wrong"

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

C'mon David, you're really not helping here

 

The thread was actually interesting before RMA comes on and says this thread is a hoot. Then he spouts alleged facts as though he was actually there. His cites don't support his conclusions, and everyone is duped (because he talks the most).

 

Do you really think that last post is any more than self-aggrandizing conjecture?

 

I don't have the time or the spirit to disagree with him. He can win all the time (it seems he needs to).

 

The charge I find most amazing...considering I physically gagged myself from almost every conversation on these boards for two years...is the charge that I need to "win" a discussion or all I do is "argue."

 

Is Divad simply oblivious to this...? :shrug:

 

Ah well, I don't have the spirit to be insulted without cause, so back to emoticons and memes.

[RockMyAmadeus]