Heritage May 2014

[Bronty]

Much better said, Agree! If any piece will attract outside collectors/investors I would think this would be one of them.

 

Everybody always says this, and yet all the marquee pieces always end up with the same usual suspects. This one will be no exception; I'm pretty sure I can narrow the field down to the 2-4 people most likely to be in the mix, just as I could for the Action 15 cover.

 

Like I said in another thread:

 

Even if Hugh Jackman somehow wanted the Hulk #180 cover, I'm sure he'd be clobbered in the bidding by the usual suspects. It really takes a special kind of clinical psychosis to rationalize paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Herb Trimpe drawing of a character who looks like he just stepped out of the musical "Cats", one that outsiders to this hobby simply will never understand.

 

Of course, as I'm not an outsider, I love it and think it's a great piece of comic art! Good luck to the bidders...

 

It might attract outside bidders but you are right as to who it will likley end up with. Definitely going to be fun to watch.

 

From what I can tell, no one ever steps in and sets a record right off the bat. Even for the newbies with major bankrolls, it takes a while to build up to that (i.e. become sufficiently brainwashed:P). I can't recall anyone introducing themselves to the hobby by blowing away all the established BSDs at a major auction like this one. Not to say that's impossible, but the next time it happens will be the first!

 

agreed. the newbie usually asks what's this worth, what's that worth... they are too busy establishing their mental benchmarks and don't have the confidence yet to establish new benchmarks for the entire market... even if they have the bank..

[J.Sid]

From what I can tell, no one ever steps in and sets a record right off the bat. Even for the newbies with major bankrolls, it takes a while to build up to that (i.e. become sufficiently brainwashed:P). I can't recall anyone introducing themselves to the hobby by blowing away all the established BSDs at a major auction like this one. Not to say that's impossible, but the next time it happens will be the first!

 

What about the Watchmen 1 page 1 a couple years back? Did we ever figure out who won that one?

[dem1138]

Much better said, Agree! If any piece will attract outside collectors/investors I would think this would be one of them.

 

Everybody always says this, and yet all the marquee pieces always end up with the same usual suspects. This one will be no exception; I'm pretty sure I can narrow the field down to the 2-4 people most likely to be in the mix, just as I could for the Action 15 cover.

 

Like I said in another thread:

 

Even if Hugh Jackman somehow wanted the Hulk #180 cover, I'm sure he'd be clobbered in the bidding by the usual suspects. It really takes a special kind of clinical psychosis to rationalize paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Herb Trimpe drawing of a character who looks like he just stepped out of the musical "Cats", one that outsiders to this hobby simply will never understand.

 

Of course, as I'm not an outsider, I love it and think it's a great piece of comic art! Good luck to the bidders...

 

It might attract outside bidders but you are right as to who it will likley end up with. Definitely going to be fun to watch.

 

From what I can tell, no one ever steps in and sets a record right off the bat. Even for the newbies with major bankrolls, it takes a while to build up to that (i.e. become sufficiently brainwashed:P). I can't recall anyone introducing themselves to the hobby by blowing away all the established BSDs at a major auction like this one. Not to say that's impossible, but the next time it happens will be the first!

 

The only example of this that I can think of, though it was a private sale, was Kirk Hammett buying the complete X-Men #1. He was an avid comic, horror, and sci-fi collector at one point, and I understand that he purchased the book as an investment. There is a very convoluted story of who he sold the book to, why he did it, and what the buyer did with the pages once he had them. But the entire history of that book is pretty interesting. Unfortunately I don't have all of the details.

Regardless, that's an example of someone prominent outside of the OA hobby dropping major coin on something significant and not really buying much else (that I'm aware of).

 

In the end I agree that this is going to a usual suspects (or at least a known entity in the hobby). I think if it was the Hulk #181 cover, it might draw more outside interest because a cover is easier to display. I think it being an interior page really limits the widespread appeal because the owner would have to explain it to anyone outside of the hobby. So it really would take someone inside the hobby to rationalize paying whatever it takes for this page because of how deeply they would understand its importance and thus be able to justify to themselves spending what it will be necessary to win it.

[Nexus]

From what I can tell, no one ever steps in and sets a record right off the bat. Even for the newbies with major bankrolls, it takes a while to build up to that (i.e. become sufficiently brainwashed:P). I can't recall anyone introducing themselves to the hobby by blowing away all the established BSDs at a major auction like this one. Not to say that's impossible, but the next time it happens will be the first!

 

What about the Watchmen 1 page 1 a couple years back? Did we ever figure out who won that one?

 

Good one. No, I don't know who got that. I'm really talking about the eye-popping six figure auctions of the last few years, but indeed, there are a handful of lesser pieces that have sold for relatively surprising numbers where we don't know for sure who got them. I wondered about the MIRACLEMAN #15 cover that sold at auction in 2009 for $50K. Unfathomable, especially considering it had been available privately for far less for quite some time. But I did find out not too long ago from a very reliable source that the cover ended up with an European buyer (my source won the lot on the buyer's behalf, so he would know).

 

Another mystery lot: The Kirby FF #55 page with Silver Surfer that went for $155K at Heritage in 2012. Does anyone know?

[delekkerste]

Just curious Gene was Richard Evans one of your usual suspects? He was the guy who won the Action Comics cover for 268k last week.

 

Absolutely. I told a fellow collector that, "if Jim Halperin doesn't buy [the Action #15 cover], I bet it'll be some GA comic collector crossover type, like a Richard Evans". Some people might have said Fishler was a suspect (and maybe he did go for it, I don't know), but I didn't think it would be him given some things I've observed. In any case, the pool of usual suspects for that kind of material is so shallow that it wasn't difficult to narrow it down to a select few people.

 

For the Hulk #180 page, to me, there are four obvious BSD suspects who have shown an interest in this kind of page and have the known capability and willingness to spend what it will likely take to win it, with two of these being more probable than the others given recent buying patterns. I think it's very likely that the winner of this page will emerge out of this group. Of course, it's not impossible that another BSD steps up, or a random really stretches to win it, or an outsider intervenes, but I'd say there's a good 85-90% chance that it will be one of the four people I have in mind.

[Nexus]

Much better said, Agree! If any piece will attract outside collectors/investors I would think this would be one of them.

 

Everybody always says this, and yet all the marquee pieces always end up with the same usual suspects. This one will be no exception; I'm pretty sure I can narrow the field down to the 2-4 people most likely to be in the mix, just as I could for the Action 15 cover.

 

Like I said in another thread:

 

Even if Hugh Jackman somehow wanted the Hulk #180 cover, I'm sure he'd be clobbered in the bidding by the usual suspects. It really takes a special kind of clinical psychosis to rationalize paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Herb Trimpe drawing of a character who looks like he just stepped out of the musical "Cats", one that outsiders to this hobby simply will never understand.

 

Of course, as I'm not an outsider, I love it and think it's a great piece of comic art! Good luck to the bidders...

 

It might attract outside bidders but you are right as to who it will likley end up with. Definitely going to be fun to watch.

 

From what I can tell, no one ever steps in and sets a record right off the bat. Even for the newbies with major bankrolls, it takes a while to build up to that (i.e. become sufficiently brainwashed:P). I can't recall anyone introducing themselves to the hobby by blowing away all the established BSDs at a major auction like this one. Not to say that's impossible, but the next time it happens will be the first!

 

The only example of this that I can think of, though it was a private sale, was Kirk Hammett buying the complete X-Men #1. He was an avid comic, horror, and sci-fi collector at one point, and I understand that he purchased the book as an investment. There is a very convoluted story of who he sold the book to, why he did it, and what the buyer did with the pages once he had them. But the entire history of that book is pretty interesting. Unfortunately I don't have all of the details.

Regardless, that's an example of someone prominent outside of the OA hobby dropping major coin on something significant and not really buying much else (that I'm aware of).

 

In the end I agree that this is going to a usual suspects (or at least a known entity in the hobby). I think if it was the Hulk #181 cover, it might draw more outside interest because a cover is easier to display. I think it being an interior page really limits the widespread appeal because the owner would have to explain it to anyone outside of the hobby. So it really would take someone inside the hobby to rationalize paying whatever it takes for this page because of how deeply they would understand its importance and thus be able to justify to themselves spending what it will be necessary to win it.

 

Again, my observation was limited to auctions. And like I said, not impossible, but very, very unlikely.

 

As for civilians, I'm not sure they'll make the same distinction between an interior and a cover the way comic collectors would. Without the same collecting baggage, I think they'd grasp the difference between the true first appearance vs. a key cover more easily (to the extent that they'd care at all). Even as a lifelong fan/collector, and someone who keenly remembers how much a copy of HULK #181 was coveted, I can't deny that this page represents the true first appearance of Wolverine. The cover will be worth more than the page, because of how its importance has been ingrained in us, but objectively speaking, I don't believe the typical interior/cover multiple applies in this case. To me, they should be closer in value. My opinion is that whatever delta exists will shrink over time.

[Nexus]

For the Hulk #180 page, to me, there are four obvious BSD suspects who have shown an interest in this kind of page and have the known capability and willingness to spend what it will likely take to win it, with two of these being more probable than the others given recent buying patterns. I think it's very likely that the winner of this page will emerge out of this group. Of course, it's not impossible that another BSD steps up, or a random really stretches to win it, or an outsider intervenes, but I'd say there's a good 85-90% chance that it will be one of the four people I have in mind.

 

I'll go a step further and say there's a good 85-90% chance that the winner will be the one who doesn't believe in price discovery.

 

Wait, that doesn't narrow things down any. Never mind.

[delekkerste]

As for civilians, I'm not sure they'll make the same distinction between an interior and a cover the way comic collectors would. Without the same collecting baggage, I think they'd grasp the difference between the true first appearance vs. a key cover more easily (to the extent that they'd care at all).

 

Not only would a civilian not necessarily make the same distinction between an interior and a cover, a civilian is probably not even going to grasp the significance of a first appearance the way an OA collector who started off as a comic collector (i.e., virtually everyone in the hobby) would. Why would someone like Hugh Jackman care about the first Wolverine page featuring a version of the character who looks like he just stepped out of the cast of "Cats"? Surely if Hugh wanted a cool piece to hang in his study, a classic Byrne image like the X-Men #115 DPS would be more up his alley (not that I could envision Hugh Jackman in a million years sparing any time to even contemplate such things). If comic book collectors don't care that Hulk #180 is unquestionably Wolverine's true first appearance, a civilian sure as heck isn't going to.

 

Back to things that have gone down the rabbit hole, I'd also like to know where the ASM #121 cover ended up. Wonder if it's sitting next to that FF #55 half-splash somewhere.

[DocR]

As for civilians, I'm not sure they'll make the same distinction between an interior and a cover the way comic collectors would. Without the same collecting baggage, I think they'd grasp the difference between the true first appearance vs. a key cover more easily (to the extent that they'd care at all).

 

Not only would a civilian not necessarily make the same distinction between an interior and a cover, a civilian is probably not even going to grasp the significance of a first appearance the way an OA collector who started off as a comic collector (i.e., virtually everyone in the hobby) would. Why would someone like Hugh Jackman care about the first Wolverine page featuring a version of the character who looks like he just stepped out of the cast of "Cats"? Surely if Hugh wanted a cool piece to hang in his study, a classic Byrne image like the X-Men #115 DPS would be more up his alley (not that I could envision Hugh Jackman in a million years sparing any time to even contemplate such things). If comic book collectors don't care that Hulk #180 is unquestionably Wolverine's true first appearance, a civilian sure as heck isn't going to.

 

Back to things that have gone down the rabbit hole, I'd also like to know where the ASM #121 cover ended up. Wonder if it's sitting next to that FF #55 half-splash somewhere.

 

Does this imply that their are numerous other big collectors ( And I'm talking about ASM 121, or hulk 180 page people) who are truly anonymous. I mean it could only be 1 or 2 of these type of guys that absolutley no one knows about or there could be 30 right? If you think about the level and quality and value of some stuff that is auctioned and vanishes or has never even surfaced yet but thought to exist it is a very large amount of material. Thoughts?

[comicsnyc22]

We've got to think of a better reference to these guys than BSD.

[Nexus]

As for civilians, I'm not sure they'll make the same distinction between an interior and a cover the way comic collectors would. Without the same collecting baggage, I think they'd grasp the difference between the true first appearance vs. a key cover more easily (to the extent that they'd care at all).

 

Not only would a civilian not necessarily make the same distinction between an interior and a cover, a civilian is probably not even going to grasp the significance of a first appearance the way an OA collector who started off as a comic collector (i.e., virtually everyone in the hobby) would. Why would someone like Hugh Jackman care about the first Wolverine page featuring a version of the character who looks like he just stepped out of the cast of "Cats"? Surely if Hugh wanted a cool piece to hang in his study, a classic Byrne image like the X-Men #115 DPS would be more up his alley (not that I could envision Hugh Jackman in a million years sparing any time to even contemplate such things). If comic book collectors don't care that Hulk #180 is unquestionably Wolverine's true first appearance, a civilian sure as heck isn't going to.

 

Back to things that have gone down the rabbit hole, I'd also like to know where the ASM #121 cover ended up. Wonder if it's sitting next to that FF #55 half-splash somewhere.

 

Does this imply that their are numerous other big collectors ( And I'm talking about ASM 121, or hulk 180 page people) who are truly anonymous. I mean it could only be 1 or 2 of these type of guys that absolutley no one knows about or there could be 30 right? If you think about the level and quality and value of some stuff that is auctioned and vanishes or has never even surfaced yet but thought to exist it is a very large amount of material. Thoughts?

 

Do you mean potential consignors or potential bidders? It's safe to say that the former constitutes a larger pool than the latter. For bidders, though, the main players are generally known. Sure, there are anonymous guys, but for the most part, we know.

[DocR]

As for civilians, I'm not sure they'll make the same distinction between an interior and a cover the way comic collectors would. Without the same collecting baggage, I think they'd grasp the difference between the true first appearance vs. a key cover more easily (to the extent that they'd care at all).

 

Not only would a civilian not necessarily make the same distinction between an interior and a cover, a civilian is probably not even going to grasp the significance of a first appearance the way an OA collector who started off as a comic collector (i.e., virtually everyone in the hobby) would. Why would someone like Hugh Jackman care about the first Wolverine page featuring a version of the character who looks like he just stepped out of the cast of "Cats"? Surely if Hugh wanted a cool piece to hang in his study, a classic Byrne image like the X-Men #115 DPS would be more up his alley (not that I could envision Hugh Jackman in a million years sparing any time to even contemplate such things). If comic book collectors don't care that Hulk #180 is unquestionably Wolverine's true first appearance, a civilian sure as heck isn't going to.

 

Back to things that have gone down the rabbit hole, I'd also like to know where the ASM #121 cover ended up. Wonder if it's sitting next to that FF #55 half-splash somewhere.

 

Does this imply that their are numerous other big collectors ( And I'm talking about ASM 121, or hulk 180 page people) who are truly anonymous. I mean it could only be 1 or 2 of these type of guys that absolutley no one knows about or there could be 30 right? If you think about the level and quality and value of some stuff that is auctioned and vanishes or has never even surfaced yet but thought to exist it is a very large amount of material. Thoughts?

 

Do you mean potential consignors or potential bidders? It's safe to say that the former constitutes a larger pool than the latter. For bidders, though, the main players are generally known. Sure, there are anonymous guys, but for the most part, we know.

 

I was thinking bidders. Obviously a lot of the guys that bought stuff in the 70s are sitting on lots of high worth stuff.Do we really know if any of this moving privately although if the bidders are secret how would a seller even get in touch with them, unless we start talking about intermediaries. Or as GodfatherPart II would call them "buffers"

[GreatEscape]

Even as a lifelong fan/collector, and someone who keenly remembers how much a copy of HULK #181 was coveted, I can't deny that this page represents the true first appearance of Wolverine. The cover will be worth more than the page, because of how its importance has been ingrained in us, but objectively speaking, I don't believe the typical interior/cover multiple applies in this case...

 

Completely agree. I remember buying a stack of Hulk #180s as a kid to get Wolverine's 1st appearance…and then getting frustrated when the guide/hobby began emphasizing Hulk #181 as the "first full appearance" with values 8-10x over #180. For comics, value was based on the entire issue, so the significant book was #181. However, in the OA hobby where we value the page/piece on a standalone basis-- this Hulk #180 first appearance panel should be more coveted than a comparable panel page in #181. The fact that the #181 interior pages are nonexistent should make this even more valuable… my

 

 

[Bronty]

However, in the OA hobby where we value the page/piece on a standalone basis-- this Hulk #180 first appearance panel should be more coveted than a comparable panel page in #181.

 

 

I would think yes and no? I mean conceptually I hear what you are saying, but IIRC there are a lot of memorable pages in 181, especially the battle pages with hulk and wendigo. I'd certainly take this splash (if it existed I guess) over the 181 page, personally. Not that its a great rendition of wolverine, but the art is not really the point with this story. This page (and in fact some of the dialogue on it) is just so memorable to me; more so than the 180 page.

 

Now that's off the top of my head, without the book in front of me. Others may disagree but to me the Hulk/Wendigo/Wolvie battle was the most memorable part of the 180-182 arc and I'd ultimately prefer a really good page that had all three of them over the standalone 180 image.

 

The 180 is great, don't get me wrong. I'm just guessing that at least a couple of the 181 pages would give it a run for its money if not exceed it pricewise, if all existed.

 

[Lago32]

Do you mean potential consignors or potential bidders? It's safe to say that the former constitutes a larger pool than the latter. For bidders, though, the main players are generally known. Sure, there are anonymous guys, but for the most part, we know.

 

I have recently spoken with a couple of folks in-the-know and the pool of guys buying in the $100k+ range is higher - and much more private - than one would expect. It is not just the usual suspects.

[lb jefferies]

Well, I think a lot of people without the cash to back it up are going to throw $100K bids at this because obviously it will go higher. Just for the hell of it.

[delekkerste]

I would think yes and no? I mean conceptually I hear what you are saying, but IIRC there are a lot of memorable pages in 181, especially the battle pages with hulk and wendigo. I'd certainly take this splash (if it existed I guess) over the 180 page, personally.

 

Of course - so would many other people, including myself. Just because the #180 page is the true first appearance is just one consideration of many - aesthetics, content, panel page vs. splash vs. cover, memorable image, etc. And, different people are going to value these factors differently. Some people are going to want the page with Wolverine's true first appearance from Hulk #180. Others would rather take the splash to Hulk #181 that the comic book market has deemed to be the more important issue.

 

Gambit's true first appearance is from X-Men Annual #14, which pre-dated Uncanny X-Men #266 by several weeks. Who here thinks his true first appearance in the former should be worth anywhere near the cover art for the latter? Like I said - true first appearance is only one of several factors to consider. It's not the end-all, be-all.

[delekkerste]

I have recently spoken with a couple of folks in-the-know and the pool of guys buying in the $100k+ range is higher - and much more private - than one would expect. It is not just the usual suspects.

 

For $100K+ pages, sure, there probably are a few out there that we don't know about. But how about for $250K+ pages? With the exception of the ASM #121 cover, I think we pretty much know where all the other big sales of that magnitude or greater have ended up, no?

[Nexus]

Do you mean potential consignors or potential bidders? It's safe to say that the former constitutes a larger pool than the latter. For bidders, though, the main players are generally known. Sure, there are anonymous guys, but for the most part, we know.

 

I have recently spoken with a couple of folks in-the-know and the pool of guys buying in the $100k+ range is higher - and much more private - than one would expect. It is not just the usual suspects.

 

For the most part, there haven't been too many surprises. New blood at that level, if it can be sustained, is a potential game-changer.

 

As I've mentioned to a few friends, I've had more unsolicited serious offers for some of my art in the last few months than I can remember. I'm used to getting low-ball offers, but these guys have been coming in STRONG. What's interesting is that they're not art guys, or even heavy slab collectors. They're just fans with, apparently, a lot of money. Maybe it's a phase. There may be no further implication on the hobby as a whole, but I am surprised by how easily some people make (relatively) crazy offers these days.

[DocR]

Do you mean potential consignors or potential bidders? It's safe to say that the former constitutes a larger pool than the latter. For bidders, though, the main players are generally known. Sure, there are anonymous guys, but for the most part, we know.

 

I have recently spoken with a couple of folks in-the-know and the pool of guys buying in the $100k+ range is higher - and much more private - than one would expect. It is not just the usual suspects.

 

For the most part, there haven't been too many surprises. New blood at that level, if it can be sustained, is a potential game-changer.

 

As I've mentioned to a few friends, I've had more unsolicited serious offers for some of my art in the last few months than I can remember. I'm used to getting low-ball offers, but these guys have been coming in STRONG. What's interesting is that they're not art guys, or even heavy slab collectors. They're just fans with, apparently, a lot of money. Maybe it's a phase. There may be no further implication on the hobby as a whole, but I am surprised by how easily some people make (relatively) crazy offers these days.

 

Crazy offers that are turned down might not be so crazy! Or maybe you both are.