Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[conditionfreak]

In my personal opinion, based on books I own, PGX gets the grading number right more often than CGC does. The problems with PGX, are the untrustworthiness and the restoration detection. Of course I have to make the disclaimer here, that ALL grading is opinion, and thus can not be realistically disputed, unless it is just ridiculously wrong.

 

But this thread isn't about PGX. It is about CGC.

 

As to removing the book from the market. That is a non-starter. It is a first appearance of Thor. Worth thousands of dollars, in either color label. It sold in a purple label and it will again.

[archiefan]

I'd be very surprised if CGC eats a 5-6k book.

 

I find this post hilarious considering the amount of people who jump all over PGX here The perceived as infallible CGC can make huge mistakes too it seems.

 

And still are with their silence!!. A simple "We understand the situation with this book and are looking into possible next steps. Please accept our apology - although we try to avoid situations like this we are only human and mistakes can happen. That said - we will do everything in our power to fix this" - from the powers that be would go a long way

[Columbia Comics]

 

you want to burn a JIM 83? ROFL okeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

 

yes.....burn it.

 

That 100% guarantees it can never create the same problem again.

[Bropper]

Before I read all this is the resolution gonna be hush hush and the thread die like last time?

 

Starting a thread and person_without_enough_empathying about something then not providing any details on how it was resolved off thread is BS. If everything is on the up and up telling the whole truth should be a problem.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Um.

 

Oh boy.

[CBT]

 

you want to burn a JIM 83? ROFL okeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

 

yes.....burn it.

 

That 100% guarantees it can never create the same problem again.

 

that's upside down face. You'd be better off to burn CGC headquarters and every slabbed container everywhere in the world.

 

Comics matter, CGC does not.

[Columbia Comics]

 

you want to burn a JIM 83? ROFL okeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

 

yes.....burn it.

 

That 100% guarantees it can never create the same problem again.

 

that's upside down face. You'd be better off to burn CGC headquarters and every slabbed container everywhere in the world.

 

Comics matter, CGC does not.

 

So explain to me what good it does keeping a scarlet letter book in circulation?

 

And if CGC purchases it, then why does it matter what they do to it??

[RockMyAmadeus]

#1, there's no need to destroy the book. The book didn't do anything.

 

#2, those of you who think the new submitter "gamed" the system, unless he/she bribed a grader, he/she didn't "game" anything. You pay for the service, you get the service. If I'd rather have my coppers graded by, say, Caffrey...and I would...am I "gaming" the system if I have him look at them? Am I "gaming" the system if I pre-screen?

 

If there's a perceived lack of consistency because of outside events, and everyone can be aware of those events (as the information is quite public), that is CGC's problem to address...not any submitter.

[Marvel Zombie]

 

Isnt the restoe check the gold standard that's supposed to distinguish CGC from PGX ...?

 

 

[Marvel Zombie]

 

Who benefits from this fiasco?

PGX does.

 

food for thought ...

[maloney414]

Before I read all this is the resolution gonna be hush hush and the thread die like last time?

 

Starting a thread and person_without_enough_empathying about something then not providing any details on how it was resolved off thread is BS. If everything is on the up and up telling the whole truth should be a problem.

 

 

Last time, it was enough that the wronged party (Spider-Dan) simply said they reached a reasonable resolution. However, at this point I agree that it should be in the open. It's become a thing.

 

 

To those of you mentioning what CGC should do for Spider-Dan, the answer may be nothing at all. Last time they did something. Neither he nor CGC shared with us, but they made an arrangement off boards (see #7 below).

 

 

Here is the re-cap from the last thread:

 

This has been an educational thread, but it's really long so I think it's time for a recap:

 

1.) Spider-Dan buys slabbed books in blue labels.

 

2.) Cracks them out and sends them in for regarding.

 

3.) Results are:

- Avengers 1 Blue CGC 7.0 comes back Purple CGC 6.0 (Color Touched)

- JIM book Blue CGC 6.0 comes back Purple CGC 7.0 (Trimmed)

 

3.) Other boardies post here in the thread they have had restoration mistakes as well. Some comment that it has happened several times to them:

 

- VintageComics (page 2)

- Gambit (page 11)

- Lord Rahl (page 11)

- Namisgr (Page 23)

- Bleuhawaii (page 24)

- Spider-Dan comments it happened once before on a GA Batman (page 33)

 

Click on spoiler tag to read their actual comments:

 

 

It rarely happens but it does happen. It's happened to me.

 

 

Happened to me once before on a big money book.. I was pretty upset, but took the loss and re sold the book as is (Purple resto label).. When it happens is usually very minor color touch that some how slipped through the cracks, however the trimmed part is what scares me!.. that should never "slip" through! and id be irate if it did! (IMO the worse type of resto out there is trimmed books!)

 

 

The trimmed one could be a false positive. I had a copy of Iron Man Sub Mariner 1 that I bought from the original owner several years ago. It came back 9.6 Trimmed. Now I knew for a fact that the book was not trimmed but it did have a funky cut. So I sent it back and it came back a 9.6 Blue. Especially with trimming, it can be tricky and no one can catch it 100% of the time. Other times, you can jump at shadows.

 

The CT baffles me though. That should have been caught the first time.

 

Either way, sorry that happened, expensive books to have it happen to. And 2 at the same time

 

I read through this but now can't find the questions. But I think this is the answer.

 

Namisgr had an ASM 129 that he purchased off the newsstand. He submitted the book 3-4 times, and the last time it came back PLOD with CT.

 

I remember this but I don't recall him submitting it 3 - 4 times. I just thought it was his personal raw copy, bought off the stands, and it came back 1st time as PLOD.

 

It was the ASM #121 I bought off the rack. It was graded 'right edge trimmed'. (My ASM #129 came back 9.6 blue label )

 

It's not the only comic I've had graded where the restoration and trimming assessments were botched. In the early days of CGC, I cracked all of my slabbed purchases out, only to resubmit them years later for purposes of selling them. A couple of those changed label colors upon regrading.

 

Bottom line? CGC does the best job that they can with detecting restoration and trimming, but they are not infallable and make mistakes. Given that they make mistakes, any resubmission of a blue label comic runs the risk of changing label color upon regrading. Either the first or the second grading could be the accurate one.

 

Not to muddy the waters even further but this has happened to me as well. I resubbed my resub and it went from EXTENSIVE resto to MODERATE. I didn't get the graders notes from the first time so I don't know what the difference was.

 

Lets clear a few things up...

As I stated earlier in this thread, I did have this happen once before, a Batman went from Blue to Purple. It was implied that GA are held to different grading standard. So Ive only had 1 thread, not thread"s". Ive had quite a few books drop in grade without complaining here on the Boards, because I do know the risks involved.

 

 

4.) We get an update from Spider-Dan that he can resend his books IF he pays to do so…. (page 50)

 

 

 

Update - I just talked to CGC, and they told me they would be glad to look them over again, but I would have to pay another submission fee

 

 

5.) Apparently, the resto misses are old news to the veterans that submit a lot.

 

From page 51:

 

The posts here that express their expectation CGC be 100% perfect with their restoration and trimming detection are missing the point that CGC is not now, has never been, and has never claimed to be perfect in these regards.. They have stated clearly that while they believe they do an outstanding job with detecting restoration and trimming (and I have no reason to doubt this), they are fallible and sometimes err.

 

Once that concept is understood, it is also easy to understand that every resubmission comes with the small risk that not only the grade but also the label color may change upon re-grading.

 

+1. Stinks when it happens but it happens.

 

Which is exactly why people were posting here that they lost some level of confidence in CGC. Because they did have the belief that CGC would be able to detect things like CT 100% of the time.

 

I think so far that was the biggest eye opener for people reading this thread. Learning this from the big submitters. That it does happen, and is part of the risk.

 

 

6.) The thread becomes a “Bleeding Cool” news story. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/16/whats-in-a-cgc-slabbed-book-anyway/

 

7.) After the "Bleeding Cool" article, CGC agrees to recheck the books for Spider-Dan and they reach some private agreement. Spider-Dan claims they came to a reasonable resolution but will not be sharing the details publicly.

 

Just wanted to let everyone know, that both books were re-checked today, and both were restored. They were checked and checked again

 

While it doesn't say much for the grading a few years ago, it at least gives me confidence in the grading consistency today.

 

Harshen called me personally to give me the bad news. After a nice conversation, and many apologies, we came to a reasonable resolution.

 

Im not going to go into details, but I will say Harshen went above and beyond to take care of this.

 

It doesn't change the fact that there are books out there in blue labels that could have resto on them, but I feel much better about CGC's customer service

 

Maybe they readjusted his grading fees

Maybe they compensated him for the difference in value between the Blue labels to Purple labels, but don’t want it public to avoid setting a precedent.

At this point it doesn’t matter.

 

8.) Lessons learned:

 

- CGC misses resto sometimes (see #5 above) It happens.

 

- If you "Crack Press Resub" there is risk the book may come back PLOD. What level of risk is still being debated.

 

- If you are resubmitting an expensive book without pressing it 1st, keep it in the slab when you submit. It’s the only way CGC will believe you didn’t add the resto yourself in this type situation.

 

 

 

Great Re-Cap

 

[techtre2003]

 

you want to burn a JIM 83? ROFL okeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

 

yes.....burn it.

 

That 100% guarantees it can never create the same problem again.

 

that's upside down face. You'd be better off to burn CGC headquarters and every slabbed container everywhere in the world.

 

Comics matter, CGC does not.

 

So explain to me what good it does keeping a scarlet letter book in circulation?

 

And if CGC purchases it, then why does it matter what they do to it??

 

A scarlet letter book to a VERY small number of collectors. Heck, crack it out and put a black dot with a sharpie on the bottom of every page and sell it to me. I'd even promise to keep it in my collection and have it buried with me when I die if you want.

[MatterEaterLad]

Isnt the restoe check the gold standard that's supposed to distinguish CGC from PGX ...?

 

 

Bingo.

 

And no...let's not advocate burning the book. Screw ups and books with history are part of the collecting world. If they want to retire it that's one thing, but CGC destroying a book they screwed up on would be bad press on top of bad press.

[Hammerhead]

You have never posted here before? Under any screen name?

 

How is the solution, that a book that may actually be trimmed, is left in a blue slab? Isn't this just passing the buck to the next buyer?

 

CGC needs to take it off the market. Retire it. Take a write down. They can call the act of owning up to responsibly paying to have this book removed from circulation whatever they want.

 

End of day, they bought the book.

 

It would have been much easier (and cheaper) if they did this the first time, because now they need to pay FMV for a blue 6.0 to two people, and in return they get to keep a 7.0 restored JIM 83.

 

Why should the new owner get compensated for a Blue 6.0 ? He gamed the system, he should not be awarded anything. I like the idea of taking it off the market but I'm not sure how that gets implemented.

 

I also believe CGC should remove the book from the market. Finding the current owner isn't a problem. As for FMV, that's between CGC and the current owner.

 

If the current owner won't cooperate, remove the serial number from the census, effectively voiding the grade. Then offer to purchase the book from the owner and upon receipt, burn it. This book needs to be destroyed.

 

I also concur that Dan probably deserves some form of compensation but then again, I never saw him once sending them extra $$ when books upgraded and he pocketed thousands of dollars from said upgrades.

 

NO WAY the book should be destroyed! I would be VERY HAPPY with that book trimmed or not, CGC or not.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Who benefits from this fiasco?

PGX does.

 

food for thought ...

 

No...they really don't.

 

 

[Spider-Dan]

OK - Im finally back. Started midnight shift last night,,

 

Anyway -

 

- I am NOT looking for any type of compensation for this book AT ALL. While I wasn't thrilled, I was satisfied with CGC's solution the 1st time around.

 

- I washed my hands to this book, but was PM'd by the buyer yesterday. I don't feel he was stirring any pot. Knowing the situation surrounding this book, I would have done the same exact thing.

 

- I DONT believe the buyer is a "Big Gun" in the submission game. He bought this book for his collection, and that is where I was told it is going to stay.

 

- Once I learned of this new grade, I felt it my obligation to this Community to let everyone know about it.

 

- I can only speak for myself, but to imply any type of shadiness on my part is silly. What could I possibly have to gain?

 

- Harshen's reply is NOT an exact quote. I went through my email's and that must have been in a phone conversation.

 

- Harshen did respond quickly to an email yesterday saying he would look into it, but wouldn't be able to do so until Tuesday

 

 

[yoddler]

you know a thread has gone on too long when people who once were making sense are no longer making sense and vice versa.

[Bomber-Bob]

#1, there's no need to destroy the book. The book didn't do anything.

 

#2, those of you who think the new submitter "gamed" the system, unless he/she bribed a grader, he/she didn't "game" anything. You pay for the service, you get the service. If I'd rather have my coppers graded by, say, Caffrey...and I would...am I "gaming" the system if I have him look at them? Am I "gaming" the system if I pre-screen?

 

If there's a perceived lack of consistency because of outside events, and everyone can be aware of those events (as the information is quite public), that is CGC's problem to address...not any submitter.

 

Totally agree with you on #1. However on #2, the facts are incriminating, especially with the timing. If he really didn't game the system, why doesn't he speak up and defend his position ?

Are there any real collectors left out there ? Someone who buys a book and actually keeps it ?

[Tony S]

I imagine it takes them longer than one minute. Even on a book with no flaws.

 

By the time you remove the book from the bag, and flip through the pages (gently, I'm assuming) to make sure they're all there and not torn/ripped/pieces missing/drawn on/indented/etc...you've probably hit the minute mark already.

 

You still have to look at the cover, make notes, assess the damage, assign a grade, return it to the bag, etc...

 

It definitely takes longer than a minute.

 

I have no inside info, but I assume the page count is done prior to grading and any damage to the inside is notated for the graders.

I forget the number but I remember being stunned at the number of books they graded at a Wizard show a few years back.

 

Back in the early days, it was fairly easy to reach and talk to Steve Borock. I was talking to him once about grading, how long it took, how incredibly boring I thought the job would be. He told me that by the time the books reach the graders, a page count has already been done, the restoration check is done. Missing coupons or such is noted. Graders only have to assign a grade.

 

I don't know if anyone knows the average time except CGC managers, but freed of checking for things I've mentioned, the grading goes a lot quicker.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Tony S

[comicwiz]

I'd even promise to keep it in my collection and have it buried with me when I die if you want.

 

This is what happens to items retired for such reasons. Destruction isn't necessary (nor was that what I implied) as they end up in collections with no intent to liquidate.