Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Speedy-D]

Man, it's really depressing to see all the things being done to these comics with the tacit approval of CGC's blue label.

[drbanner]

I don't think Cole Schave collected comics looking for this particular defect. According to Doug's website, he purchased the entire collection. Given that the dozens of books with the 11977... certification numbers that almost uniformly have the 'Constanza' look were graded just within the past month, it's likely that Doug had the books pressed and re-graded before offering them up in his auction.

 

The irony here is that Doug states the collector was picky = in their present state the Owner of the collection would not want these books.

 

'This is a fabulous collection of ultra high grade early Silver Age Marvels from the private collection of Cole Schave, a noted collector out of Green Bay, Wisconsin, that we purchased in July for $600,000. Known to many dealers across the country, Mr. Schave is a very picky high grade CGC buyer who does not buy a book solely for the grade on the label. He focuses on superior page quality, registration and eye appeal and would routinely pass on many books he needed for his collection if they did not meet his strict criteria. Therefore, all the books in his collection have superior page quality (white or off-white to white with only a couple with off-white), structure, centering and presentation, with no date stamps, writings, etc., etc.'

 

Truly laughable...Schave might have sought out books like that, but they've since been defaced, deformed, and defiled. Easy enough for someone living in Florida to drive these over to their favorite presser and sit around and lobby CGC on the results...just like happened with a certain high grade FF 1 we all know about.

 

Can you imagine these Costanza's coming out of the back end of the meat grinder with lower grades than going in? Gotta keep your best customers happy and prove the viability and advantage of your product over your competitors, so no possibility of downgrade for these monstrosities!

[VintageComics]

It's also very possible that Doug simply heard about the discussion back in March, saw the potential and had Mark Wilson press his books for him.

 

 

What I don't understand is why CGC rewards books with this defect in the first place. I've said from the very start of the discussion back in March that treating a shifted spine like a spine roll (albeit even a small one) would have taken the eye appeal into account for the grade and this loophole would never have existed.

 

It's hard to say how I personally would react to this defect in hindsight now that we've been exposed to all of this discussion. It's been talked to death on here but I'm pretty sure if it was on a book as it sat in front of me raw 6 months ago I'd probably have taken it into account.

 

 

 

 

[drbanner]

An interesting observation can be made from looking at the Schave books with the "119771" cert #, and those without.

 

These books were all graded 2 weeks ago Roy, there's no way Doug sends them to Mark Wilson after the Face Job Fiasco (re: the "Insane Press and flip Avengers 1" and "Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's! " threads from last March) and CGC's subsequent "addressing" of the issue...just like they addressed the artificial edge aging and Ewert micro-trimming fiascos of yore (after being made aware of these situations via the boards).

 

[VintageComics]

An interesting observation can be made from looking at the Schave books with the "119771" cert #, and those without.

 

These books were all graded 2 weeks ago Roy, there's no way Doug sends them to Mark Wilson after the Face Job Fiasco (re: the "Insane Press and flip Avengers 1" and and "Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's! " threads from last March) and CGC's subsequent "addressing" of the issue.

 

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Are you saying that Doug couldn't have sent them to Wilson because they were graded 2 weeks ago as opposed to 6 months ago before CGC was aware of the discussion?

 

I suppose if CGC are simply looking for defects that have been moved from front to back and these books don't have any of those defects then that might be one reason they wouldn't get flagged.

 

If they were looking out for right edge fanning then that is another ball of wax all together.

 

I guess it all depends on how CGC addressed the issue 6 months ago.

[drbanner]

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Are you saying that Doug couldn't have sent them to Wilson because they were graded 2 weeks ago as opposed to 6 months ago before CGC was aware of the discussion?

Doug didn't buy the books until July...

[VintageComics]

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Are you saying that Doug couldn't have sent them to Wilson because they were graded 2 weeks ago as opposed to 6 months ago before CGC was aware of the discussion?

Doug didn't buy the books until July...

 

Sorry Mike, I still don't understand what you're getting at.

 

I don't know any of the details of when the books were graded, I was merely suggested that Wilson could have been hired to do the work.

 

So digging a little deeper, you are saying the books were bought in July and graded 2 weeks ago. I haven't verified when the books were graded but according to the link below the JIM #93 CGC 9.6 was already a 9.6 nearly 5 weeks ago when Doug announced the purchase of the collection.

 

Here is Doug's announcement of the purchase dated August 2 2013.

 

 

Journey Into Mystery 96 9.6

 

He never wanted to sell his other runs until most recently, when he called us regarding his desire to downsize his collection to just ultra high grade Silver Age Marvel keys and thus was ready to part with his runs. He offered us the opportunity to buy any run we wanted to but not individual issues as he did not want to break up the runs. After seeing his impressive list we decided to buy the entire collection, including his favorite early run of Journey Into Mystery #84 through #90, which he did not offer initially. After back and forth negotiations for the past couple of days, a purchase price of $600,000 was agreed upon on Tuesday, July 30th for all 74 books.

 

 

 

If the book was a 9.6 on August 2nd, how could it have been graded 2 weeks ago?

[VintageComics]

OK, never mind, I see now it was graded August 22nd. Strange.

 

[drbanner]

If the book was a 9.6 on August 2nd, how could it have been graded 2 weeks ago?

Just squash it and try, try again...a Pedigree 9.6 isn't good enough. Even worse, the example below was previously a 9.4 owned by r100comics, so it was resubbed as a 9.4 to get the 9.6, then deformed to reach it's present state...and still a 9.6?

 

Courtesy of namisgr, from the CGC gallery (top scan) and the Pedigree auction (2nd scan):

 

 

[Tsp99]

I just noticed the PQ bump on the labels, too. IMOO, this just gives me more confidence in the stance that PQ really doesn't matter to me, so long as it's not truly tan/or brittle. Otherwise it just seems to be a sliding scale that changes depending on the time and the particular grader's take.

 

Completely agree.

[october]

I don't understand the JiM 88 and 93. The interior pages are clearly more fanned, but the spines on both don't appear to be shifted. The same amount of art is showing on both,m with nothing discernible moved to the back cover.

 

Maybe extra pressings have caused the book to flatten more and the pages to fan?

[VintageComics]

I don't understand the JiM 88 and 93. The interior pages are clearly more fanned, but the spines on both don't appear to be shifted. The same amount of art is showing on both,m with nothing discernible moved to the back cover.

 

Maybe extra pressings have caused the book to flatten more and the pages to fan?

 

That's what I surmised early on in the thread.

 

Others have suggested the cover shrank.

 

I'm thinking that it's got to be one of two possibilities.

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I don't understand the JiM 88 and 93. The interior pages are clearly more fanned, but the spines on both don't appear to be shifted. The same amount of art is showing on both,m with nothing discernible moved to the back cover.

 

Maybe extra pressings have caused the book to flatten more and the pages to fan?

 

I wondered earlier, if the back cover presented with the same fanned pages which I assume it does. As such, one would think this would be another easily detectable bad press job that should see a grade drop, rather than a grade bump.

 

It was my understanding that grade drops were how CGC was going to handle the Reverse Spine Roll "face job" pressing, prevalent on books worked on by the Wilsons. What surprises me is that the same uncommon defect of fanned pages didn't raise some kind of "red flag" to investigate these books further.

[zuckuss2003]

If the book was a 9.6 on August 2nd, how could it have been graded 2 weeks ago?

Just squash it and try, try again...a Pedigree 9.6 isn't good enough. Even worse, the example below was previously a 9.4 owned by r100comics, so it was resubbed as a 9.4 to get the 9.6, then deformed to reach it's present state...and still a 9.6?

 

Courtesy of namisgr, from the CGC gallery (top scan) and the Pedigree auction (2nd scan):

 

 

 

This is amazingly sad...

[Dano]

If the book was a 9.6 on August 2nd, how could it have been graded 2 weeks ago?

Just squash it and try, try again...a Pedigree 9.6 isn't good enough. Even worse, the example below was previously a 9.4 owned by r100comics, so it was resubbed as a 9.4 to get the 9.6, then deformed to reach it's present state...and still a 9.6?

 

Courtesy of namisgr, from the CGC gallery (top scan) and the Pedigree auction (2nd scan):

 

 

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

Dan

[drbanner]

It was my understanding that grade drops were how CGC was going to handle the Reverse Spine Roll "face job" pressing, prevalent on books worked on by the Wilsons. What surprises me is that the same uncommon defect of fanned pages didn't raise some kind of "red flag" to investigate these books further.

I know, weird, isn't it?

[Matt Nelson]

What you’re seeing here is a result of the cover shrinking from exposure to humidity, and happens most often on early Silver Age Marvels because they were printed so poorly. The sides of the cover can shrink, although the top and bottom covers will not.

[seanfingh]

 

They were in the pool! They were in the pool!

[originalisbest]

I don't think Cole Schave collected comics looking for this particular defect. According to Doug's website, he purchased the entire collection. Given that the dozens of books with the 11977... certification numbers that almost uniformly have the 'Constanza' look were graded just within the past month, it's likely that Doug had the books pressed and re-graded before offering them up in his auction.

 

The irony here is that Doug states the collector was picky = in their present state the Owner of the collection would not want these books.

 

'This is a fabulous collection of ultra high grade early Silver Age Marvels from the private collection of Cole Schave, a noted collector out of Green Bay, Wisconsin, that we purchased in July for $600,000. Known to many dealers across the country, Mr. Schave is a very picky high grade CGC buyer who does not buy a book solely for the grade on the label. He focuses on superior page quality, registration and eye appeal and would routinely pass on many books he needed for his collection if they did not meet his strict criteria. Therefore, all the books in his collection have superior page quality (white or off-white to white with only a couple with off-white), structure, centering and presentation, with no date stamps, writings, etc., etc.'

 

Truly laughable...Schave might have sought out books like that, but they've since been defaced, deformed, and defiled. Easy enough for someone living in Florida to drive these over to their favorite presser and sit around and lobby CGC on the results...just like happened with a certain high grade FF 1 we all know about.

 

Can you imagine these Costanza's coming out of the back end of the meat grinder with lower grades than going in? Gotta keep your best customers happy and prove the viability and advantage of your product over your competitors, so no possibility of downgrade for these monstrosities!

 

So again here you are claiming matt was responsible for the costanza look. Your proof is?

[InvstmntComcSuply]

What you’re seeing here is a result of the cover shrinking from exposure to humidity, and happens most often on early Silver Age Marvels because they were printed so poorly. The sides of the cover can shrink, although the top and bottom covers will not.

 

Do you mean exposure to humidity followed by subsequent drying?

 

There is no downgrade for this characteristic?