Lucifer ordered for a Fox pilot 1 1

[Lazyboy]

"The Market". If you don't know what I mean by that, I don't know what to tell you. It should be obvious. For example....where would you look to find one for sale right now? Can't find any? That means there are none currently on "The Market".

 

You have an interesting way of stating your opinions as facts. I have stated from the beginning that I am guesstimating the amount of surviving copies. All you have done is try to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that your opinion is right. They are still both "opinions" either way. I, however am basing my opinion on current census figures, scarcity on "The Market", its original miniscule print run and how it was distributed. You are basing your opinion on really nothing more than speculation on what people "may or may not" be doing with however many raw copies might be out there. You have not disputed that they rarely come to market, raw or slabbed, and other than saying "No", you have not explained how or why that does not suggest that there would be significantly more than my guesstimate of 100 surviving copies.

 

I am more than happy to listen to and debate anyone's opinions on these boards. Just as long as they realize and understand that that is all we are doing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You cannot claim there are no copies "on the market" unless you have checked every dealer website, comic and/or business website (ie. CPG, Amazon, Comiclink, etc.) that allows people to put items up for sale, brick and mortar store, convention (yes, it's currently Thursday afternoon - you probably get a pass on this one at the moment), etc.

 

eBay is not the market, GPA does not represent all sales (even just of CGC graded books), and the CGC census is not an accurate representation of extant copies, either directly or proportionately.

 

Your "opinions" are ridiculous and not based on any kind of reality.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"The Market". If you don't know what I mean by that, I don't know what to tell you. It should be obvious. For example....where would you look to find one for sale right now? Can't find any? That means there are none currently on "The Market".

 

You have an interesting way of stating your opinions as facts. I have stated from the beginning that I am guesstimating the amount of surviving copies. All you have done is try to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that your opinion is right. They are still both "opinions" either way. I, however am basing my opinion on current census figures, scarcity on "The Market", its original miniscule print run and how it was distributed. You are basing your opinion on really nothing more than speculation on what people "may or may not" be doing with however many raw copies might be out there. You have not disputed that they rarely come to market, raw or slabbed, and other than saying "No", you have not explained how or why that does not suggest that there would be significantly more than my guesstimate of 100 surviving copies.

 

I am more than happy to listen to and debate anyone's opinions on these boards. Just as long as they realize and understand that that is all we are doing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You cannot claim there are no copies "on the market" unless you have checked every dealer website, comic and/or business website (ie. CPG, Amazon, Comiclink, etc.) that allows people to put items up for sale, brick and mortar store, convention (yes, it's currently Thursday afternoon - you probably get a pass on this one at the moment), etc.

 

eBay is not the market, GPA does not represent all sales (even just of CGC graded books), and the CGC census is not an accurate representation of extant copies, either directly or proportionately.

 

Your "opinions" are ridiculous and not based on any kind of reality.

 

This is just your opinion, based on nothing but speculation.

 

Where are the FACTS, man??

 

[Jaydogrules]

"The Market". If you don't know what I mean by that, I don't know what to tell you. It should be obvious. For example....where would you look to find one for sale right now? Can't find any? That means there are none currently on "The Market".

 

You have an interesting way of stating your opinions as facts. I have stated from the beginning that I am guesstimating the amount of surviving copies. All you have done is try to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that your opinion is right. They are still both "opinions" either way. I, however am basing my opinion on current census figures, scarcity on "The Market", its original miniscule print run and how it was distributed. You are basing your opinion on really nothing more than speculation on what people "may or may not" be doing with however many raw copies might be out there. You have not disputed that they rarely come to market, raw or slabbed, and other than saying "No", you have not explained how or why that does not suggest that there would be significantly more than my guesstimate of 100 surviving copies.

 

I am more than happy to listen to and debate anyone's opinions on these boards. Just as long as they realize and understand that that is all we are doing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You cannot claim there are no copies "on the market" unless you have checked every dealer website, comic and/or business website (ie. CPG, Amazon, Comiclink, etc.) that allows people to put items up for sale, brick and mortar store, convention (yes, it's currently Thursday afternoon - you probably get a pass on this one at the moment), etc.

 

eBay is not the market, GPA does not represent all sales (even just of CGC graded books), and the CGC census is not an accurate representation of extant copies, either directly or proportionately.

 

Your "opinions" are ridiculous and not based on any kind of reality.

 

And thank you for your opinion of my opinion. My opinion of yours is that you are wrong. Now where does that leave us? And please, by all means, link me to an available copy that's publicly available right now...

 

 

No?

 

So what's your point?

 

By the way, I didn't say any of what you are attempting to paraphrase me as saying. I think it's groovy that you believe there is 100% survival rate of the paltry 600 copies of the book that were printed ("printed", not distributed), I just happen to believe literally all available evidence suggests much to the contrary. I guesstimate around 100. No one has provided any competing evidence to the contrary other than to offer up speculation that actually defies the hard available numbers that we have readily before us. You believe there is a stockpile of a "shadow inventory" of these out there somewhere ? Good for you, you keep right on believing that. But I believe the inventory that has come to light over the past 15 years suggests you are dead wrong. So let's agree to disagree and be friends. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

It's quote-city in here!

 

take me down to 'quote city' where the words are mean and thoughts aren't pretty...

[Garlanda]

And thank you for your opinion of my opinion. My opinion of yours is that you are wrong. Now where does that leave us? And please, by all means, link me to an available copy that's publicly available right now...

 

 

No?

 

So what's your point?

 

By the way, I didn't say any of what you are attempting to paraphrase me as saying. I think it's groovy that you believe there is 100% survival rate of the paltry 600 copies of the book that were printed ("printed", not distributed), I just happen to believe literally all available evidence suggests much to the contrary. I guesstimate around 100. No one has provided any competing evidence to the contrary other than to offer up speculation that actually defies the hard available numbers that we have readily before us. You believe there is a stockpile of a "shadow inventory" of these out there somewhere ? Good for you, you keep right on believing that. But I believe the inventory that has come to light over the past 15 years suggests you are dead wrong. So let's agree to disagree and be friends. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In my unsolicited opinion, your hyperbolic, pendulum-swing representation of other's statements is a significant reason why these debates persist. You suggested there were only 30 or so known copies, others disagreed, and you insinuated that the only alternative is 100% survival. That's a false dichotomy - there are more options available than 30 or 100%. I wouldn't claim a 100% survival of any comic more than 10 years old.

 

The editorial variant was well-known back in the 90s; I remember looking for it before I got out of comics in 1996. I can probably find and post some old Wizards or Overstreets to show it listed at a premium price vs standard copies.

 

Many comic collectors don't slab their comics at all.

 

Many Sandman collectors put their runs away when the series ended so long ago and may have even quit actively collecting comics. They likely imagine the 8B they got to be a $50-$100 book that they'd rather keep and have no idea it could go for $2k.

 

As time passes, it's possible that editorial variants are finding their way back into the wild from people who never realized they had a premium copy, just that they liked reading it and started following the series.

 

Admittedly, speculation, but based on some observation of comic readers who were only in it for Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman Sandman, and Jamie Delano Hellblazer.

 

I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range.

 

[Jaydogrules]

And thank you for your opinion of my opinion. My opinion of yours is that you are wrong. Now where does that leave us? And please, by all means, link me to an available copy that's publicly available right now...

 

 

No?

 

So what's your point?

 

By the way, I didn't say any of what you are attempting to paraphrase me as saying. I think it's groovy that you believe there is 100% survival rate of the paltry 600 copies of the book that were printed ("printed", not distributed), I just happen to believe literally all available evidence suggests much to the contrary. I guesstimate around 100. No one has provided any competing evidence to the contrary other than to offer up speculation that actually defies the hard available numbers that we have readily before us. You believe there is a stockpile of a "shadow inventory" of these out there somewhere ? Good for you, you keep right on believing that. But I believe the inventory that has come to light over the past 15 years suggests you are dead wrong. So let's agree to disagree and be friends. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In my unsolicited opinion, your hyperbolic, pendulum-swing representation of other's statements is a significant reason why these debates persist. You suggested there were only 30 or so known copies, others disagreed, and you insinuated that the only alternative is 100% survival. That's a false dichotomy - there are more options available than 30 or 100%. I wouldn't claim a 100% survival of any comic more than 10 years old.

 

The editorial variant was well-known back in the 90s; I remember looking for it before I got out of comics in 1996. I can probably find and post some old Wizards or Overstreets to show it listed at a premium price vs standard copies.

 

Many comic collectors don't slab their comics at all.

 

Many Sandman collectors put their runs away when the series ended so long ago and may have even quit actively collecting comics. They likely imagine the 8B they got to be a $50-$100 book that they'd rather keep and have no idea it could go for $2k.

 

As time passes, it's possible that editorial variants are finding their way back into the wild from people who never realized they had a premium copy, just that they liked reading it and started following the series.

 

Admittedly, speculation, but based on some observation of comic readers who were only in it for Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman Sandman, and Jamie Delano Hellblazer.

 

I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range.

 

I respect your opinion, though I still believe that, in this day and age it is very easy for someone to find out what their books are worth, and as with virtually every other book of value, the more valuable it becomes, the more come out from the wild. We simply have not seen that happen with the sandman 8 variant. Period. You say collectors have known for awhile that they are coveted and that collectors were the likely recipients of them originally, and I agree. So where are they all? We basically see the same copies coming up for sale over and over again. And very few raw ones. Their perennial dearth in the market place tells us that either people are really holding onto a rather large percentage of this particular (tiny print run) comic, and are not slabbing them. Or it tells us there are very few surviving copies that can even be circulated. My position is the latter. You disagree. You're entitled to. As I said however, the facts we have publicly before us tend to support my position more than yours. But that is just my opinion. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range.

 

This is a reasonable conclusion, and...this is for you, Jay...based on what we know about survival rates for comics in general, Sandman in particular, and the collecting habits of buyers from 1989 to the present.

 

This is not made-up "speculation" that relies on nothing but personal whim and opinion.

 

You, Jay, discount and discredit people who have been doing this for decades, who know these markets because they deal in them on a daily basis, and have for decades, and that, along with your made up "facts" (like "the market wasn't aware of this book until 2005-2006"), is what makes your statements so unreasonable.

 

The census is great...if one knows how to use the census correctly.

 

But one cannot...indeed, must not...go by the census alone in determining what exists, and in what quantities, and in what conditions.

 

Yes, it IS all just "opinion" about extant copies, but you err when you say all opinions are created equally.

 

If I am suffering a persistent, hacking, mucousy cough...and my doctor, who has been a doctor for 40 years, says I have pneumonia...and my mechanic says I have a lung sunburn...whose opinion is more valid?

 

And...if you want to have your opinions given any weight, you better make sure ALL your facts are spit-shine accurate. What value is an opinion that relies on things which are not true?

 

[Lazyboy]

I have comics in my collection that do not come up regularly for sale, copies that nobody else knows still exist.

 

I'm very sure that many Sandman/DC/variant/rarity fans have acquired copies of the Sandman 8 Editorial variant over the last twenty-five years and kept them, which removes them from the market but not from existence. I would bet everything I own that the number of extant copies is (much) closer to 600 than 100. Of course, even if I could find some sucker to take that bet, I'd never get to cash out simply due to the difficulty of tracking down enough copies to win

[RockMyAmadeus]

And thank you for your opinion of my opinion. My opinion of yours is that you are wrong. Now where does that leave us? And please, by all means, link me to an available copy that's publicly available right now...

 

 

No?

 

So what's your point?

 

By the way, I didn't say any of what you are attempting to paraphrase me as saying. I think it's groovy that you believe there is 100% survival rate of the paltry 600 copies of the book that were printed ("printed", not distributed), I just happen to believe literally all available evidence suggests much to the contrary. I guesstimate around 100. No one has provided any competing evidence to the contrary other than to offer up speculation that actually defies the hard available numbers that we have readily before us. You believe there is a stockpile of a "shadow inventory" of these out there somewhere ? Good for you, you keep right on believing that. But I believe the inventory that has come to light over the past 15 years suggests you are dead wrong. So let's agree to disagree and be friends. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In my unsolicited opinion, your hyperbolic, pendulum-swing representation of other's statements is a significant reason why these debates persist. You suggested there were only 30 or so known copies, others disagreed, and you insinuated that the only alternative is 100% survival. That's a false dichotomy - there are more options available than 30 or 100%. I wouldn't claim a 100% survival of any comic more than 10 years old.

 

The editorial variant was well-known back in the 90s; I remember looking for it before I got out of comics in 1996. I can probably find and post some old Wizards or Overstreets to show it listed at a premium price vs standard copies.

 

Many comic collectors don't slab their comics at all.

 

Many Sandman collectors put their runs away when the series ended so long ago and may have even quit actively collecting comics. They likely imagine the 8B they got to be a $50-$100 book that they'd rather keep and have no idea it could go for $2k.

 

As time passes, it's possible that editorial variants are finding their way back into the wild from people who never realized they had a premium copy, just that they liked reading it and started following the series.

 

Admittedly, speculation, but based on some observation of comic readers who were only in it for Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman Sandman, and Jamie Delano Hellblazer.

 

I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range.

 

I respect your opinion, though I still believe that, in this day and age it is very easy for someone to find out what their books are worth, and as with virtually every other book of value, the more valuable it becomes, the more come out from the wild. We simply have not seen that happen with the sandman 8 variant. Period. You say collectors have known for awhile that they are coveted and that collectors were the likely recipients of them originally, and I agree. So where are they all?

 

Sitting in the collections of collectors.

 

We basically see the same copies coming up for sale over and over again. And very few raw ones. Their perennial dearth in the market place tells us that either people are really holding onto a rather large percentage of this particular (tiny print run) comic, and are not slabbing them. Or it tells us there are very few surviving copies that can even be circulated. My position is the latter. You disagree. You're entitled to. As I said however, the facts we have publicly before us tend to support my position more than yours. But that is just my opinion. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You do not understand the market for very rare comics (which this certainly is), and you do not understand how Sandman collectors view their books.

 

Sandman #8 variant is NOT Hulk #181, where people can buy and sell them on a regular basis, and if they sell one, they can just pony up the money to buy another one next week.

 

The facts do not support your position, in any respect.

[Jaydogrules]

 

I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range.

 

This is a reasonable conclusion, and...this is for you, Jay...based on what we know about survival rates for comics in general, Sandman in particular, and the collecting habits of buyers from 1989 to the present.

 

This is not made-up "speculation" that relies on nothing but personal whim and opinion.

 

You, Jay, discount and discredit people who have been doing this for decades, who know these markets because they deal in them on a daily basis, and have for decades, and that, along with your made up "facts" (like "the market wasn't aware of this book until 2005-2006"), is what makes your statements so unreasonable.

 

The census is great...if one knows how to use the census correctly.

 

But one cannot...indeed, must not...go by the census alone in determining what exists, and in what quantities, and in what conditions.

 

Yes, it IS all just "opinion" about extant copies, but you err when you say all opinions are created equally.

 

If I am suffering a persistent, hacking, mucousy cough...and my doctor, who has been a doctor for 40 years, says I have pneumonia...and my mechanic says I have a lung sunburn...whose opinion is more valid?

 

And...if you want to have your opinions given any weight, you better make sure ALL your facts are spit-shine accurate. What value is an opinion that relies on things which are not true?

 

I understand your point but at the end of the day, comic books ain't rocket science. Or perhaps more appropriate to your analogy...they ain't brain surgery. I deal with data and statistics all day. I respect dealers opinions and the opinions of other boardies. But I have my own opinions. The opinions of those who have disagreed with me have largely consisted of what collectors and people "might have done" or "might be doing" with this particular book. This is nothing but speculation. My opinion is based on what can actually be observed in the market place, and the statistical sample therein. I am NOT basing my opinion on essentially unseen shadow inventory that cannot be proven either way that it even exists. You are suggesting that "it must exist, how can it not?". My response to that is: "Because the statistical sample size that we have seen suggests that it does not".

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

I have comics in my collection that do not come up regularly for sale, copies that nobody else knows still exist.

 

I'm very sure that many Sandman/DC/variant/rarity fans have acquired copies of the Sandman 8 Editorial variant over the last twenty-five years and kept them, which removes them from the market but not from existence. I would bet everything I own that the number of extant copies is (much) closer to 600 than 100. Of course, even if I could find some sucker to take that bet, I'd never get to cash out simply due to the difficulty of tracking down enough copies to win

 

So then it sounds like we agree after all, at least on this point.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

. The opinions of those who have disagreed with me have largely consisted of what collectors and people "might have done" or "might be doing" with this particular book. This is nothing but speculation.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong.

 

And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it.

 

No need to rely on opinion.

 

My opinion is based on what can actually be observed in the market place, and the statistical sample therein. I am NOT basing my opinion on essentially unseen shadow inventory that cannot be proven either way that it even exists. You are suggesting that "it must exist, how can it not?". My response to that is: "Because the statistical sample size that we have seen suggests that it does not".

 

-J.

 

The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress.

 

It is necessarily flawed "methodology."

[RockMyAmadeus]

And no, I am not suggesting "it must exist, how can it not?" That is a misrepresentation of my position.

 

I am suggesting that "based on what is known about the collecting habits of comics buyers, the collecting habits of Sandman collectors, the typical survival rate of special edition comic books, and the general survival rate of comics books from the late 80's/early 90's, it is a reasonable conclusion to state that most of the copies are still extant."

 

Not a fact. A reasonable conclusion.

 

There IS a difference.

 

It is entirely outside of the realm of reason...based on the facts just stated...that 82%+ of the print run of a very special book, known AND sought after from nearly the time it was printed in 1989 has evaporated into non-existence.

 

You want to talk about condition issues, sure, not a problem. No argument. The vast majority of these books went to fans of the book, who then probably read it, and the result is that 9.6 or better copies are now extremely rare.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

. The opinions of those who have disagreed with me have largely consisted of what collectors and people "might have done" or "might be doing" with this particular book. This is nothing but speculation.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong.

 

And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it.

 

No need to rely on opinion.

 

My opinion is based on what can actually be observed in the market place, and the statistical sample therein. I am NOT basing my opinion on essentially unseen shadow inventory that cannot be proven either way that it even exists. You are suggesting that "it must exist, how can it not?". My response to that is: "Because the statistical sample size that we have seen suggests that it does not".

 

-J.

 

The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress.

 

It is necessarily flawed "methodology."

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

I don't deny that there is a probability that another 200% of what we see might still be out there in the raw. I am simply saying that I highly doubt it is significantly more than that based on what we see (and don't see) coming to market.

 

-J.

 

 

[mister_not_so_nice]

#33 is one of my favorite stand alone issue of all time

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

-J.

 

 

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...?

 

2.

 

That's it.

 

I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence.

 

You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow.

[Jaydogrules]

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

-J.

 

 

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...?

 

2.

 

That's it.

 

I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence.

 

You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow.

 

I gave you one sampling size to prove my point. Actually, I've given you four sampling sizes... CGC census, Heritage auction records, GPA sales data, and recent ebay activity. None of these are good enough for you, or provide even the least bit evidence to you that there may really only be as few as 100 copies of this book around? You must believe that your speculation of what "simply has to be out there, unseen" is right, and my hard data is somehow lacking, and is inferior to your speculation? Makes no sense to me, but like I have repeatedly stated, we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

-J.

 

 

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...?

 

2.

 

That's it.

 

I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence.

 

You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow.

 

I gave you one sampling size to prove my point. Actually, I've given you four sampling sizes... CGC census, Heritage auction records, GPA sales data, and recent ebay activity

 

Do you mean "sample"? "Sample size" is how BIG the samples are.

 

That's nice that you gave these examples, but they are insufficient. I've already explained why GPA, the census, and eBay are insufficient, and the same basic arguments apply to Heritage, with one more: Heritage is NOT known for being heavily involved in Copper Age books. Their forte, of course, is Silver and Gold.

 

None of these are good enough for you, or provide even the least bit evidence to you that there may really only be as few as 100 copies of this book around?

 

No, because they only represent a tiny portion of the big picture.

 

You cannot point to what is NOT, and use that to make a claim as to what IS. Reality doesn't work that way.

 

"See? SEE?? There haven't been hardly ANY sales! That MUST mean these copies don't exist anymore!"

 

...while completely ignoring the much broader realities of the comic collecting world, which have already been explained.

 

You must believe that your speculation of what "simply has to be out there, unseen" is right, and my hard data is somehow lacking, and is inferior to your speculation? Makes no sense to me, but like I have repeatedly stated, we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

-J.

 

One more time: knowing what people with decades of experience in this hobby...like myself...know, it is not within the realm of reason to conclude that just because a certain book doesn't appear frequently on the marketplace, that therefore the vast majority of the copies of that book no longer exist.

 

Are you ever going to take responsibility for the "The market wasn't even aware that this book existed until 2005-2006" error?

 

You are attempting to say that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because you can only see a part of her brown dress.

 

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

 

Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages.

 

How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run?

 

3.

 

Two slabbed, and one raw.

 

That's it.

 

There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours.

 

-J.

 

 

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...?

 

2.

 

That's it.

 

I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence.

 

You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow.

 

I gave you one sampling size to prove my point. Actually, I've given you four sampling sizes... CGC census, Heritage auction records, GPA sales data, and recent ebay activity

 

Do you mean "sample"? "Sample size" is how BIG the samples are.

 

That's nice that you gave these examples, but they are insufficient. I've already explained why GPA, the census, and eBay are insufficient, and the same basic arguments apply to Heritage, with one more: Heritage is NOT known for being heavily involved in Copper Age books. Their forte, of course, is Silver and Gold.

 

None of these are good enough for you, or provide even the least bit evidence to you that there may really only be as few as 100 copies of this book around?

 

No, because they only represent a tiny portion of the big picture.

 

You cannot point to what is NOT, and use that to make a claim as to what IS. Reality doesn't work that way.

 

"See? SEE?? There haven't been hardly ANY sales! That MUST mean these copies don't exist anymore!"

 

...while completely ignoring the much broader realities of the comic collecting world, which have already been explained.

 

You must believe that your speculation of what "simply has to be out there, unseen" is right, and my hard data is somehow lacking, and is inferior to your speculation? Makes no sense to me, but like I have repeatedly stated, we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

-J.

 

One more time: knowing what people with decades of experience in this hobby...like myself...know, it is not within the realm of reason to conclude that just because a certain book doesn't appear frequently on the marketplace, that therefore the vast majority of the copies of that book no longer exist.

 

Are you ever going to take responsibility for the "The market wasn't even aware that this book existed until 2005-2006" error?

 

You are attempting to say that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because you can only see a part of her brown dress.

 

 

 

When I said that I was referring to the beginning of the sharp increase in value at that time. And yes, I am stating that a large part of that will correlate to a sharp increase in market awareness.

 

By the way, I called comic link and asked them how many copies have graced their auction house since they've been in business.

 

A total of.....

 

2. Just 2 in the last eighteen years.

 

The 9.6 they just sold and an 8.0 four years ago.

 

That's it.

 

So a total of 5 copies between two of the largest and most respected auction houses in the hobby over a nearly two decade period.

 

Again, I don't discount that there are plenty of raw copies hiding in collections and maybe some people aren't even aware of what they have. But I do not believe that number is in excess of 100 copies, based on the Now 5 samples that I have checked and are available to us.

 

And yes, #33 is a pretty bad arse stand alone.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

But I do not believe that number is in excess of 100 copies, based on the Now 5 samples that I have checked and are available to us.

 

That is not a reasonable conclusion to make, for all the reasons stated before, and others not stated yet.

 

All "samples" are not created equal.

 

But you, as ever, already know that.