1st Teen Titans 3 3

[nearmint]

2 hours ago, Silver said:

I just don't get how people who understand what Brave and the Bold was don't get that number 54 was just another team up issue.   That particular issue was the inspiration for number 60.  I get the desire to call number 54 the first Teen Titans. I have said on many occasions I own both issues and the 54 is one of my favorite silver age  issues of all time, that does not make it the first appearance of the Teen Titans though.  To me it just seems obvious that the popularity of the response from number 54 brought the editors back to the drawing board to create something with more of an ongoing status. That is number 60.  The 54 is always going to be a highly sought after popular and valuable issue and I hope that never changes, however it does not contain the key elements necessary to call it the first appearance of the Teen Titans. 

I think both sides of the argument have legitimate points.  From my perspective, if all members of the JLA except Wonder Woman had teamed up in BB27 and they never used the name Justice League of America, I'd call 27 the first appearance of the JLA rather than 28.  They teamed up and battled a bad guy.  That's enough for a first appearance for me. 

[Silver]

Jeff, if everyone but Wonder Woman were B&B 27 and the issue was labeled as Flash, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter together in one adventure, no mention of Justice League, then, a year later in Brave and 33 they added Wonder Woman and called it the Justice League of America, you would then consider the 27 as their first appearance? 

We're not talking about the very next issue. If it was the very next issue, it would be hard to deny the intent. This was a year later. It was a regular team up issue, no different than the issue before or the issue after. There was no Teen Titans until after that issue came out and fan response started pouring in and number 60 came out. 

I know this has been rehashed a million times and it is not my desire to get back into this. I just don't see how anyone can say that definitively 54 was the first Titans. If Overstreet never tagged the book with that label and had always referred to it as a tryout or something else, I bet we wouldn't see many comic fans arguing the point. 

IIRC you have a very nice 54, right?  

 

[Bomber-Bob]

19 minutes ago, Silver said:

If Overstreet never tagged the book with that label and had always referred to it as a tryout or something else, I bet we wouldn't see many comic fans arguing the point. 

It is widely accepted that Christopher Columbus did not 'discover' America yet he gets the credit and has the Holiday. We can argue all we want but the label on my BB54 says 1st appearance. When CGC contacts me and says give it back, then I'll believe in #60. For what it's worth I like the cover of #60 much better than 54.  

[Silver]

I have no delusion that it will ever "un-be" their first appearance.

[Aman619]

Well, OOAW 81 is pretty well in-be'd at this point.  Things change.  I was solidly in the 54 camp all my life until this discussion broke down the differences.  As Silve just pointed out, DC Released 54.  And then nothing more with the sidekicks.  Back then, we communicated by snail mail. Readers wrote letters.  Sales results  took months to come in.  So a year later D.C. -- with the reader mail and sales numbers comes back with the kids together again, adds the remaining kid sidekick WG, and gives them an official name.

so 54 led to 60. But 60 started something that still lives today.  54 has a greater claim to first appearance than OOAW 81 does... but both appear to be being eclisped by revisionist rethinking ..

[lou_fine]

On 9/6/2017 at 5:54 AM, JLA Brad said:

On 9/5/2017 at 10:08 AM, nearmint said:

You guys watching the BB54 CGC 9.8 in the CL auction?  Currently at $30,055.  I wonder what it will hammer at.

That is an amazing price - with so much time left, you would think it has a lot of room to move. 

 

On 9/6/2017 at 6:15 AM, Gotham Kid said:

40K-45K

I bumped into Magik today at the local con and mentioned to him that this CGC 9.8 copy of BB 54 might hit $40K by the time it's all said and done.  When he asked what BB 54 was and I mentioned the first appearance of Teen Titans, he scoffed at the idea that somebody would pay this kind of money for a seemingly second rate kid group like the Teen Titans. 

I would tend to agree with him, but probably best to reserve judgement until I see what kind of prices a subsequent second or third copy of BB 54 in 9.8 graded condition will end up going for.  If the book is as good as you guys are thinking, then subsequent copies in equivalent or higher grades should continue to increase and reinforce whatever price this copy will be going for.   

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

It is widely accepted that Christopher Columbus did not 'discover' America yet he gets the credit and has the Holiday. We can argue all we want but the label on my BB54 says 1st appearance. When CGC contacts me and says give it back, then I'll believe in #60. For what it's worth I like the cover of #60 much better than 54.  

Who cares? Anybody who puts any faith into CGC's issue notes deserves what they get. There are many that are even more blatantly wrong than this one.

CGC is a grading company, not the official arbiter of the entire hobby.

2 hours ago, Silver said:

If Overstreet never tagged the book with that label and had always referred to it as a tryout or something else, I bet we wouldn't see many comic fans arguing the point.

Exactly. An inaccurate description being old and entrenched doesn't make it any more accurate.

For the people who will say "But DC has called it the first appearance!", they haven't been any more consistent with that than they have been with many other things. It largely depends on the writer and where they're getting their information.

[nearmint]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

 

I bumped into Magik today at the local con and mentioned to him that this CGC 9.8 copy of BB 54 might hit $40K by the time it's all said and done.  When he asked what BB 54 was and I mentioned the first appearance of Teen Titans, he scoffed at the idea that somebody would pay this kind of money for a seemingly second rate kid group like the Teen Titans. 

I would tend to agree with him, but probably best to reserve judgement until I see what kind of prices a subsequent second or third copy of BB 54 in 9.8 graded condition will end up going for.  If the book is as good as you guys are thinking, then subsequent copies in equivalent or higher grades should continue to increase and reinforce whatever price this copy will be going for.   

Over 200 episodes of the animated series.  A live-action series coming next year produced by Greg Berlanti.  They're hardly second rate, and that's nothing new.  They were one of the biggest things in comics over 30 years ago.  

There are 8 copies of this book in 9.6, and the most recent GPA sale at that grade was $10,001.  So what should a solo highest graded 9.8 sell for?

I'm not claiming that 40k is the right price for this book, but to call the Titans second rate is to ignore their phenomenal success in both comics and television.  

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by nearmint

[Silver]

No, the Titans are not second rate. I had a seven year old over this eeekend and he asked to watch TV, he said he wanted to watch Teen Titans Go. I watched the episode with him. Weird but funny.

 

[DanCooper]

GREAT debates/discussions/points being made here on the BB54 vs. 60 issue!

These are the type of discussions that may be able to get the hobby to review past acceptances and update more accurately (just like, as others have pointed out, the Our Army At War 81 vs. 83 discussions have over the years!)

BB54 always seemed to be accepted by collectors as the first Titans. It was always a hot book, especially in the early 1980s when the Titans were revived.

But, as collectors, we always want to get things right.

I was in the camp accepting BB54 as first Titans. But, the inclusion of Wonder Girl and the designation of the actual "Teen Titans" in issue 60, makes a strong case for BB60 to be the first actual appearance of the TT.

We have to remember where DC was with the Brave & Bold series at this point in time. Starting with issue 50, they changed the philosophy with BB to become a "team up" series of characters in the DC universe (exception being first Metamorpho in issues in #57 & 58, which Metamorpho should have probably been more a "Showcase" series issue instead. But, that's a discussion for another thread!)

My own speculation, with no actual proof, is DC started doing all the various team ups In Brave & Bold as the new structure/philosophy for the series. When they threw together the "kid sidekicks" in BB54, I don't think they thought it was going to evolve into anything different than, like others have pointed out, putting together Atom with the Metal Men in BB53.

The feedback and reaction to BB54 must have gotten DC to rethink about creating the "Teen Titans" in issue 60, leading to its own series months later.

Again, great points made by all in this thread, on both sides of the argument!

[Chillax23]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:29 PM, Lazyboy said:

Cap wasn't a founding member of the Avengers. The Avengers existed without him at the start, although not for long.

Wonder Girl was a founding member of the Teen Titans. The Titans never existed before she was a member.

Individuals and teams are not the same. As I said earlier in the thread: "A team doesn't exist until it's officially formed. You still exist even if I don't know your name."

Yes, there was a team-up of Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad in 54. There was no team, named or not.

You are probably thinking of the generic editorial blurb at the end of the story. The same (or very similar) inappropriately-worded blurb that was used at the end of every team-up story at the time, referring to the "team" that had appeared in the issue.

You're going to be searching for a long time, because such a thing does not exist.

Wonder Girl is not a founding member of the Teen Titans if you side on BB54 being the first appearance and not BB60.  Again I think Wonder Girl's involvement and the argument that the TT can't possibly exist utnil she is around makes little sense - teams chance members all the time.

Also a team can exist without it being named - it is not like speaking a team's name brings it into existence, it still exists whether it has a name or not.

Again, I lean towards BB54 - I understand the BB60 argument and in the end think a true TT collector should just buy both.

[Bomber-Bob]

11 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I would tend to agree with him, but probably best to reserve judgement until I see what kind of prices a subsequent second or third copy of BB 54 in 9.8 graded condition will end up going for.  If the book is as good as you guys are thinking, then subsequent copies in equivalent or higher grades should continue to increase and reinforce whatever price this copy will be going for.   

Sole highest graded will always command the higher price. In general, you will find that subsequent 9.8's will sell for significantly less.  Assuming this copy sells for 40K, if a couple more 9.8's hit the market, I think 20 -30K would be the range.  It's even worse when the sole highest graded is eclipsed by a yet higher grade. Of course a movie or something of that sort changes the dynamics and 40K could seem cheap. 

[VintageComics]

2 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

Wonder Girl is not a founding member of the Teen Titans if you side on BB54 being the first appearance and not BB60.  Again I think Wonder Girl's involvement and the argument that the TT can't possibly exist utnil she is around makes little sense - teams chance members all the time.

Also a team can exist without it being named - it is not like speaking a team's name brings it into existence, it still exists whether it has a name or not.

Again, I lean towards BB54 - I understand the BB60 argument and in the end think a true TT collector should just buy both.

I agree along these lines as well.

It's one thing for an editorial team to make the statement and it's entirely something different for the team to exist without even being named but in the spirit of things the TT were first formed in #54 IMO.

Even though BB was a tryout series, even though there were many teams that have come and gone, even though WG was not a part of the team, even though they are 'officially named' in BB #60 that still doesn't change the fact that the team's 1st get together and appearance was in #54.

You have to understand that in comics, nothing was a given. X-men #1 could have been cancelled after several issues like the Hulk was. Everything was a tryout in the SA. Editors were throwing things against the wall hoping that some of the stuff would stick.

Thankfully for us as collectors, many things did stick. But we can't look back and rewrite history in the sense that it makes editors look like they had a preconceived plan.

They didn't.

Edited September 11, 2017 by VintageComics

[sfcityduck]

I can't believe this debate has been revived.  I'm with Chillax and Roy.

Let's be clear, you can look at this from three different perspectives:

(1) Trademark;

(2) Continuity; and

(3) Practical reality.

In terms of trademark, BB 60 was the first appearance of the name "Teen Titans."  It can truly be said that the trademark "Teen Titans" didn't exist until BB 60.  If you collect trademarks and logos, BB 60 is a big deal.

But, this begs the question:  Is what matters the trademark or the continuity?  I, and most TT collectors, care more about the continuity, the characters and story, than the trademark.

In terms of continuity, BB 54 was clearly the origin and first appearance of the Teen Titans.  As a matter of continuity, the gathering of the group that appeared in BB 60 would not have occurred but for the events of BB 54.  BB 60 makes that clear.  In BB 60, Robin says that the Teen Titans were formed as a result of the events in BB 54. In other words, BB 54 is exactly like Avengers 1 in continuity significance: The heroes come together and have an adventure, and at the conclusion they decide to form a team.  That Wonder Girl is not in the first Teen Titans adventure is about as meaningful as the fact that Speedy and Beast Boy aren't in BB 60 either. Like the Avengers, the line-up changes.  The formation of the group precedes the adoption of an official name.  It happens.

In terms of practical reality, it is pretty dang obvious what happened.  DC gave Haney the assignment of trying out a kid group.  Marvel was having success with the concept.  BB 54 was the result.  Turned out that reactions were good, so DC decided to have another tryout, this time with a name for the group.  Hence, the emergence of the trademark "Teen Titans."  After BB 60 and the Showcase issue, the group had established itself enough to become its own title.  It was all the same concept. 

For me, and most collectors, continuity and practical reality outweigh the emergence of a trademark.  You simply cannot be a Teen Titans completest without getting BB 54.  It's referenced in BB 60.  It's the start of the continuity of the TT story.  It's part of the necessary canon.  And DC has reaffirmed that over and over. 

This latest auction just proves that the market also values BB 54 more than BB 60, for whatever that's worth (which may be nothing).

 

[Crimebuster]

I also can't believe this nonsense is coming up again. Suffice it to say I think #60 is pretty clearly the first appearance of the team for all the reasons that have been debated ad nauseam.  

I wrote a response to some of the nonsense being reposted here about #54, but all of this has been said before so... anyone who's interested can just go back and read the last 50 pages. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Crimebuster

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Crimebuster said:

anyone who's interested can just go back and read the last 50 pages. 

Yep.  The cases are laid out in detail.  We just disagree on what matters most: the trademark or the continuity of the story of the team.

[Chillax23]

2 hours ago, Crimebuster said:

I also can't believe this nonsense is coming up again. Suffice it to say I think #60 is pretty clearly the first appearance of the team for all the reasons that have been debated ad nauseam.  

I wrote a response to some of the nonsense being reposted here about #54, but all of this has been said before so... anyone who's interested can just go back and read the last 50 pages. 

 

29 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Yep.  The cases are laid out in detail.  We just disagree on what matters most: the trademark or the continuity of the story of the team.

While there is disagreement - I think both sides are understood and I think/hope both sides and Teen Titan collectors can agree that both books should be owned (for the record I own neither but will buy both eventually - starting with a 54 )

[lou_fine]

8 hours ago, Chillax23 said:

I understand the BB60 argument and in the end think a true TT collector should just buy both.

+1

I believe this is the best answer to this little squabble between BB 54 and BB 60. 

[Lazyboy]

6 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I agree along these lines as well.

It's one thing for an editorial team to make the statement and it's entirely something different for the team to exist without even being named but in the spirit of things the TT were first formed in #54 IMO.

Nothing was formed in BB 54. There isn't even the slightest indication that the 3 characters will ever see each other again.

6 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Even though BB was a tryout series, even though there were many teams that have come and gone, even though WG was not a part of the team, even though they are 'officially named' in BB #60 that still doesn't change the fact that the team's 1st get together and appearance was in #54.

Again, there is no team in 54, only 3 characters who are independently summoned to the same area and end up loosely working together.

It's not like DC didn't know how to make and introduce a real team. Only a few years earlier, the JLA debuted in the same title and they were very impressively organized considering they didn't exist prior to that issue. Even without a name, it would have been very clear that they were a real team.

6 hours ago, VintageComics said:

You have to understand that in comics, nothing was a given. X-men #1 could have been cancelled after several issues like the Hulk was. Everything was a tryout in the SA. Editors were throwing things against the wall hoping that some of the stuff would stick.

It's a terrible idea for you to bring up the X-Men, considering the point you're trying to make. They were an established team the moment they were introduced. Creators were actually allowed to introduce organized groups (AKA teams).

Hulk wasn't cancelled because it was bad or didn't stick, it was cancelled because of the restrictions under which Marvel was forced to operate at the time.

6 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Thankfully for us as collectors, many things did stick. But we can't look back and rewrite history in the sense that it makes editors look like they had a preconceived plan.

They didn't.

Assuming we are literate, we can read what is on the pages and see exactly what happens in any particular issue, no matter what the intent may or may not have been.

[Lazyboy]

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

In other words, BB 54 is exactly like Avengers 1 in continuity significance: The heroes come together and have an adventure, and at the conclusion they decide to form a team.

No. They are very similar before their respective endings, but they wildly diverge at that point.

In Avengers 1, multiple characters are brought together. At the end, they form a team and even name themselves.

In BB54, multiple characters are brought together. After they beat a lame villain, nothing happens. Off panel, between 54 and 60, Robin forms the Teen Titans and they debut in 60.

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Lazyboy