Comprehensive List of DC Universe Logo UPC Variants
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On 7/17/2018 at 5:22 PM, Michael Browning said:

Good try. Others of us have tried, too, but we get the same response. As I've said before, it boils down to those on here who are looking for some of these don't want the "rare" tag placed on them UNTIL AFTER THEY FIND THEM FOR THEMSELVES. Then, you'll see them listed as "rare" or "scarce". lol

Mysterio is being far too kind to you. You should spend much more time reading, and much less time posting, before making comments like these. Are there cash grabbers who care nothing about scholarship and only about making as much money off of "stupid collectors" as they can? Of course. But if you imagine that the main participants of this thread are among them, you're quite mistaken. You must have mistaken the CGC board for the CBCS board. You're not going to find...anywhere...a group of people in comics more dedicated to scholarship and research, and less to making a "profit", than you will here.

It's easy to toss out cynical accusations...not so easy to prove them.

There's a lot of that going around...far, far too much lately. Foolish, irresponsible accusations, with zero evidence to support them, and reams and reams of evidence to disprove them.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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That all said, I still think not including the DC bullet and Zero Hour issues is a mistake, since they are the same exact thing: the only difference is the type of logo in the UPC box. "DCU", the bullet, the zero hour symbol...all mean the exact same thing.

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3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That all said, I still think not including the DC bullet and Zero Hour issues is a mistake, since they are the same exact thing: the only difference is the type of logo in the UPC box. "DCU", the bullet, the zero hour symbol...all mean the exact same thing.

I think we’d all agree with your point, they were all distributed via collector packs. They’ve been listed and discussed here. I’d wager that they’re just discussed quite a bit less for a few reasons. 1) the symbols are different, so they’re not DCUs in the technical (perhaps pedantic) sense, 2) these other series of variants were a lot smaller and had more specific distribution (like the Zero Hour issues), and 3) those other series are better understood and more completely documented than the DCUs. New DCU variants are still occasionally popping up, while it would be pretty newsworthy to find a new Bullet or Zero Hour variant at this point. 

Edited by mysterio

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On 1/6/2015 at 3:47 PM, revat said:

Side List of UPC Zero Hour and DC LOGO (Bullet) :news: updated 1/6/15

I know much less about these and have less interest, BUT certainly doesn't hurt to post them here, since I think they're sort of related.

 

Zero Hour UPC

Action 0

Batman 0

Justice League 0

Superman 0

Adv of SM 0

SM Man of Steel 0

Detective 0 Zero

Guy Gardner 0

Zero Hour 1-5

 

DC LOGO

Action 693

Action 694

Batman 502

Justice League 83

Superman 84 DC

Adv of SM 507

SM Man of Steel 28

Detective 669

Flash 85

Robin 2

Justice League International 59, 58

Legionnaires 9

Looney Tunes 1

Showcase 93 #12

Here is an early example of the discussion of these non-DCU multipack variants. These lists are not complete, as they were early, but I don’t have time to go through all 50+ pages at the moment. 

Edited by mysterio

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5 hours ago, mysterio said:
9 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That all said, I still think not including the DC bullet and Zero Hour issues is a mistake, since they are the same exact thing: the only difference is the type of logo in the UPC box. "DCU", the bullet, the zero hour symbol...all mean the exact same thing.

I think we’d all agree with your point, they were all distributed via collector packs. They’ve been listed and discussed here. I’d wager that they’re just discussed quite a bit less for a few reasons. 1) the symbols are different, so they’re not DCUs in the technical (perhaps pedantic) sense, 2) these other series of variants were a lot smaller and had more specific distribution (like the Zero Hour issues), and 3) those other series are better understood and more completely documented than the DCUs. New DCU variants are still occasionally popping up, while it would be pretty newsworthy to find a new Bullet or Zero Hour variant at this point. 

I'll have to find myself in rare disagreement with you about this, for the reasons stated above. I don't see any difference between these in:

1. Intent

2. Method of distribution

They are, other than the actual symbols used in the UPC box, for all intents the same things, produced the same way, for the same reasons, distributed the same way, and in all ways except cosmetic, identical in scope and process.

For example: the Zero Hour issues are found both in collector's packs and the 20 pack Zero Hour "Costco brick"...same as the others.

The DC bullet was the one month precursor to the DCU symbol, and Zero Hour was for that particular month as well. Otherwise...the same.

But...can't find the tide. ;)

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14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'll have to find myself in rare disagreement with you about this, for the reasons stated above. I don't see any difference between these in:

1. Intent

2. Method of distribution

They are, other than the actual symbols used in the UPC box, for all intents the same things, produced the same way, for the same reasons, distributed the same way, and in all ways except cosmetic, identical in scope and process.

For example: the Zero Hour issues are found both in collector's packs and the 20 pack Zero Hour "Costco brick"...same as the others.

The DC bullet was the one month precursor to the DCU symbol, and Zero Hour was for that particular month as well. Otherwise...the same.

But...can't find the tide. ;)

Funny that you can disagree with me, but I can't seem to disagree with you on these points. lol I think we are arguing the same thing, and maybe my issues are coming down to mere personal preference. For whatever reason the "true" DCU variants are sexier. Maybe it is the rarity (for some) and the thrill of the chase as it is a larger series that is very difficult to put together relative to their essentially identical Zero Hour and Bullet compatriots. I would not dispute the points you raise above, but the symbols do matter to *most* of us that are collecting these things (at least according to my decidedly non-scientific analysis of the posts in this thread, that I have participated in since basically day #1).

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I'll posit this, then: the DC Whitmans have different symbols. Most are part of the logo in the DC bullet, some are in a circle, some are black, some are blue. Lots of variations...but they're all Whitmans.

Not quite a perfect analogy, but close enough.

Would you consider the later black circle "non-DC bullet" issues to be not part of the set, since cosmetically they're a little different...?

I'm not dismissing the cosmetic issue with collectors. Lord knows everyone has their OCD about it. 

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10 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'll posit this, then: the DC Whitmans have different symbols. Most are part of the logo in the DC bullet, some are in a circle, some are black, some are blue. Lots of variations...but they're all Whitmans.

Not quite a perfect analogy, but close enough.

Would you consider the later black circle "non-DC bullet" issues to be not part of the set, since cosmetically they're a little different...?

I'm not dismissing the cosmetic issue with collectors. Lord knows everyone has their OCD about it. 

It's a reasonable question, and I would consider all of those to be Whitmans. Now, if there were consistent variation in the Whitman symbols/placement/colors that would track with different eras of distribution, that may be a closer analogy. Of course, YMMV, which is what makes collecting fun (or terribly frustrating, depending on your motivations to collect).

There are cosmetic differences within the DCUs as well, at the very least there is bordered and not bordered. There may be other variants that have slipped my notice.

Batman533.jpg

Detective690.jpg

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9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'll posit this, then: the DC Whitmans have different symbols. Most are part of the logo in the DC bullet, some are in a circle, some are black, some are blue. Lots of variations...but they're all Whitmans.

Not quite a perfect analogy, but close enough.

Would you consider the later black circle "non-DC bullet" issues to be not part of the set, since cosmetically they're a little different...?

I'm not dismissing the cosmetic issue with collectors. Lord knows everyone has their OCD about it. 

I think you're right, they're basically the same thing, but with different logos (obviously).  BUT for what this thread eventually became (I think to some extent what I thought it would originally), its pretty much a vehicle to create a comprehensive list of DCU's, because the list isn't clear and there are still many mysteries to be found and discussed.  The ZERO HOUR and DC BULLET mysteries weren't that mysterious to begin with, and were solved fairly quickly, and therefore appeared to be somewhat irrelevant as a talking point to the 'visitors' of this thread many years ago.  Like if you were working on a puzzle and the entire left corner was completely done (and it was an especially easy corner to begin with), you don't need to keep working on that corner when there's missing pieces in other parts of the puzzle. 

Yes there is SOME value to looking at the pieces in that corner that border the rest of the puzzle, but we've essentially solved those too at this point The DC Bullets generally provide a lower limit for issue #.  AND the other value with them is reconstructing contents of specific 'packs' these comics came in, but I'm not sure a definitive 'list' of DC bullets or Zero hours really impacts the discussion either way, and the reconstruction of packs is really a different exercise, although at least tangentially relevant.

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** REGARDING MY POST ABOVE

I have no problem with any direction this thread goes.  If people want to solve all the packs and all the variants of variants and reprints of variants, I'm all for it. These intricacies and minutia are what make things interesting, when you decide which rabbit holes you want to go down.

My previous post was not intended to be a judgment, just kind of an explanation of why we stopped posting the DC Bullet and Zero Hour Logo lists.  If we start posting it again or drawing relevant connections to everything else, I got no beef with that.

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4 minutes ago, revat said:

** REGARDING MY POST ABOVE

I have no problem with any direction this thread goes.  If people want to solve all the packs and all the variants of variants and reprints of variants, I'm all for it. These intricacies and minutia are what make things interesting, when you decide which rabbit holes you want to go down.

My previous post was not intended to be a judgment, just kind of an explanation of why we stopped posting the DC Bullet and Zero Hour Logo lists.  If we start posting it again or drawing relevant connections to everything else, I got no beef with that.

It's a shame that the first post got locked, because I had always hoped that those lists could be added back to the "master" version. It is useful info, because I do think that most of us DCU hunters want to pick them up.

Edited by mysterio

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19 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Actually, there have been a few people in the country who noticed these as they were coming out, but there weren't the online communities to document them, nor the widespread availability through the internet we have now. These books were born before, or during, the birth of the internet, and most comics people don't care about these types of oddities still...but there are were a few of us weirdos from the beginning. I've owned a DCU Flash #92 since maybe 1995...?...and set it aside as "different" at that time.

Otherwise, I agree completely with the rest of your post.

Good point my friend... you and I were definitely noticing and collecting variants at least since the mid-90s and probably earlier.  I just wasn't collecting variants to the extent that Jerome did.   

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8 hours ago, mysterio said:

It's a shame that the first post got locked, because I had always hoped that those lists could be added back to the "master" version. It is useful info, because I do think that most of us DCU hunters want to pick them up.

I've been thinking about amending the list to include those subtle variants of the DCU's (stickered copies and ones that have different indicia).  I will probably get around to that someday.

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19 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Mysterio is being far too kind to you. You should spend much more time reading, and much less time posting, before making comments like these. Are there cash grabbers who care nothing about scholarship and only about making as much money off of "stupid collectors" as they can? Of course. But if you imagine that the main participants of this thread are among them, you're quite mistaken. You must have mistaken the CGC board for the CBCS board. You're not going to find...anywhere...a group of people in comics more dedicated to scholarship and research, and less to making a "profit", than you will here.

It's easy to toss out cynical accusations...not so easy to prove them.

There's a lot of that going around...far, far too much lately. Foolish, irresponsible accusations, with zero evidence to support them, and reams and reams of evidence to disprove them.

First and foremost, I mean no disrespect to anyone on this thread, but I have been around the comic hobby long enough to know why people don't want a "rare" tag placed on a comic - until they find it for themselves.

I don't collect these. I find them and buy them because I think it's a fun little aspect of the hobby. I haven't "collected" comics in years and everything I get is either to read or for research purposes. I'm the one who discovered and reported to CBG and Overstreet (when I worked as an advisor to the Guide) the Miracleman Gold and Blue variants, the SoMuchFun variants and the MPI cassette tape variants -- but I don't collect them.

I do try to be more attentive when I look through dollar boxes to find these.

I also know that, as a longtime comic book historian, putting the "rare" or "scarce" tag on these is important to the research and to those searching for them; it is important to know as collectors look for these.

None of these are break-the-bank variants and many sell for $5 or less. It isn't like we're buying a Showcase #4 when we buy a DC logo variant. Even if one is listed as "rare", then it still won't sell for a lot (and, honestly, $100 is a nice price, but it still isn't a fortune). Heck, I put a whole bunch of these up on eBay and didn't sell a single one, and I do have some of the more scarce issues.

Having said all that, I do want everyone on this thread to know I greatly appreciate the research already gathered here and I continue to read each and every post hoping to find out more about these.

Now, if anyone ever wants any of these or needs any for their collections, just let me know. Most I've got a buck or two in and some I've got up to $10 and I'd really just be looking to get my cash back. Like I said earlier, I'm not planning to keep any of them, so just PM me on here and I'll certainly be glad to help you fill holes in your collections.

 

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15 hours ago, Michael Browning said:
On 7/19/2018 at 11:14 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Mysterio is being far too kind to you. You should spend much more time reading, and much less time posting, before making comments like these. Are there cash grabbers who care nothing about scholarship and only about making as much money off of "stupid collectors" as they can? Of course. But if you imagine that the main participants of this thread are among them, you're quite mistaken. You must have mistaken the CGC board for the CBCS board. You're not going to find...anywhere...a group of people in comics more dedicated to scholarship and research, and less to making a "profit", than you will here.

It's easy to toss out cynical accusations...not so easy to prove them.

There's a lot of that going around...far, far too much lately. Foolish, irresponsible accusations, with zero evidence to support them, and reams and reams of evidence to disprove them.

First and foremost, I mean no disrespect to anyone on this thread, but I have been around the comic hobby long enough to know why people don't want a "rare" tag placed on a comic - until they find it for themselves.

It's like you didn't even read my post. 

So I'll simply repeat what I already said: not everyone views things in the cynical manner which you present here. There are...as unbelievable as it may seem...actually people in the world who value transparency over personal gain. I do not dispute in the slightest that there are many people who fit your description above. But not everyone.

I'll give you some examples:

Maxx Black Ashcan #1. I have never owned one. It is, in the real sense of the word, prohibitively rare. There are perhaps 10 copies accounted for in the last 20 years. The print run was limited to 50 or so copies total. I do not own one. I have never owned one. I would like to own one. 

Here's another example: Cry For Dawn Horrorcon #3. It is also fairly rare, much rarer than the DCUs being discussed here, with some possible exceptions. I do not own one. I have never owned one. I would like to own one. There are two available on eBay right now, but they are priced higher than I currently wish to pay. However, there have been many years between appearances. 

Here's another example: Vampirella #0 Blue. It was limited to 100 copies. An example comes up for sale on eBay about once every 5 years. I own one, but for many, many years, I did not. During that time, I had no problem discussing how rare it is. 

Here's another example: Action Comics #686 2nd print. It's one of the DCUs. It's one of the most difficult to find. I do not own one. I would like to own one. 

Here's another example: Amethyst #1 and #2 35 cent "test" variants. I do not own either. I have never owned either.

All of these examples, and many more like them, are rare or "rare" in relative terms. I have no problem calling them that "before I find it for myself."

And I am not alone.

I think you place more stock in the "rare tag" than perhaps is warranted. Calling something "rare", especially in the day where everything is "RARE, HTF!!!!!!", really doesn't generate as much attention as you suggest.

And do not forget that there's value in transparency that can, and sometimes does, outweigh the "I want to get this for a really low price!" mentality. I do not have access to the collections of anyone who doesn't offer them for public sale. Therefore, if someone happens to have a rare item in their collection, of which they are unaware, calling attention to its rarity could cause, and has caused, those items to appear when they wouldn't ever have in the normal course of things.

Some things for you to consider.

PS. How did you "discover" the Miracleman Blue & Golds, when they were very publicly offered at the 1985 San Diego Comicon...? It's not like they were ever a secret.

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On 7/20/2018 at 9:15 AM, revat said:

I think you're right, they're basically the same thing, but with different logos (obviously).  BUT for what this thread eventually became (I think to some extent what I thought it would originally), its pretty much a vehicle to create a comprehensive list of DCU's, because the list isn't clear and there are still many mysteries to be found and discussed.  The ZERO HOUR and DC BULLET mysteries weren't that mysterious to begin with, and were solved fairly quickly, and therefore appeared to be somewhat irrelevant as a talking point to the 'visitors' of this thread many years ago.  Like if you were working on a puzzle and the entire left corner was completely done (and it was an especially easy corner to begin with), you don't need to keep working on that corner when there's missing pieces in other parts of the puzzle. 

Yes there is SOME value to looking at the pieces in that corner that border the rest of the puzzle, but we've essentially solved those too at this point The DC Bullets generally provide a lower limit for issue #.  AND the other value with them is reconstructing contents of specific 'packs' these comics came in, but I'm not sure a definitive 'list' of DC bullets or Zero hours really impacts the discussion either way, and the reconstruction of packs is really a different exercise, although at least tangentially relevant.

My only concern is this: in the future, people will not recognize that the bullet and Zero Hour issues are exactly the same as the DCUs, produced in the same way, for the same intent, distributed the same way, packaged the same way, identical in every single way except the cosmetic symbols. They are part of the program, and I'm concerned that others won't make that connection.

To go with your analogy, it's like completing the left 2 inches of a puzzle, top to bottom, then neatly cutting off that section and putting it somewhere else. Someone coming along afterwards might never even know there was anything missing.

I understand your point: you're only concerned about these:

FullSizeRender.jpg?resize=300,140&ssl=1

...but there's a whole segment of that series that is getting lost in the shuffle, because they don't have that logo. 

And that has, as feared, led to others not acknowledging, or outright dismissing, the bullet and Zero Hour logos. Here's an example:

https://comicbookinvest.com/2017/08/25/dc-universe-upc/

Along with a host of other errors (such as all DCUs being REPRINTS...they are NOT, at least, not necessarily) in the body of the post, no mention of the ZH or bullets, and in the video linked, the speaker dismisses the ZH issue he has as "close, but no cigar."

Not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, I realize there are a billion more important matters in the world. But since we're discussing it in this thread, I think it would be bad scholarship to not at least acknowledge and include the ZH and bullet issues, since they are the exact same program as the DCUs.

PS. It appears to me, and I could be wrong, that the list that these "CBSI" people put on their post is merely a repetition of the list here, yet the article "author", someone named "Topher", says that certain people did a "ton" of work assembling said list. I don't doubt that other people are perfectly capable of research, but when you google "DC Universe logo", this thread...which predates the "CBSI" blog post by nearly three years...is the first result to come up.

Is it possible the latter-day list as assembled completely independently of this thread...? Of course. Is it likely...?

Doubtful. 

If this thread was consulted, credit ought to be acknowledged to Revat, Mysterio, Kirk, et al. 

EDIT TO ADD: looks like someone linked this thread in the comments thread, and they then acknowledge that. Good.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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40 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

PS. How did you "discover" the Miracleman Blue & Golds, when they were very publicly offered at the 1985 San Diego Comicon...? It's not like they were ever a secret.

I read your post quite thoroughly.

What other reason could anyone have for NOT wanting to list them as rare or scarce? But you'll tell everyone who asks (there are PEOPLE ASKING FOR THIS INFORMATION so it is relevant) to go dig through some earlier posts, 50 pages back. I don't think anyone on here is lazy, but to continue saying to go back and read the posts tells me that the ones that are hard to find aren't listed as such because people are still trying to find copies for their own collections and don't want anyone to really know which ones are rare and which ones aren't. It's that simple. You can argue all day about this, but the truth of the matter is that as soon as something is listed as rare or scarce (I will concede that NONE of these are rare or scarce, but some are rather harder to find that others) the price goes up on it and, then, copies start coming out of the woodwork.

As for the Miracleman Gold and Blue editions, I may not have been the first to have discovered them, but I sure got them listed in the price guide and brought them to everyone's attention with an article on them in Comics Buyer's Guide -- after years and years of research. Overstreet wouldn't list them (they had a "silver" listed) as Gold and Blue until I reported on the sale of, if I remember correctly, the #4 copy (or maybe it was the #7) that sold for $1500 in the Pacific Northwest. I started gathering information on them long before that when I saw them offered in the catalog that Eclipse sent me back when those came out.

After the article came out, lots of these started popping up on eBay for astronomical prices.

One more thing: I also discovered the Man of Steel raffle edition trade paperback and the Batman Blind Justice Diamond Conference trade paperback (I sold Ian the DC completist his copy of Blind Justice), researched them, wrote an article on them and, after the CBG article was published and those first copies sold for over a grand each, prices skyrocketed on each of them. But, those early sales also caused collectors to start digging through their own collections to see if they had these -- all because they were supposed to be rare (they can be quite tough to find).

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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I think it would be bad scholarship to not at least acknowledge and include the ZH and bullet issues, since they are the exact same program as the DCUs.

I missed where you explained this, what "program?" Was that defined somewhere in this discussion? Thanks.

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27 minutes ago, divad said:

I missed where you explained this, what "program?" Was that defined somewhere in this discussion? Thanks.

The collector pack program.

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