2015 May 28-30 Comics Signature Auction

[Peter G]

This thread is a decent read. I think those of you that side with Mankuta are gonna be DEAD WRONG in your predictions that comic OA will eventually stagnate.

 

The very fact that Action Comics # 1 has just recently reached stratospheric new sale price of $3+ million dollars is further evidence that blue chip quality comic book related materials will continue to climb in value. OA included.

 

Rich people will ALWAYS buy assets that act as trophies and function as a safe deposit box equivalent. And OA is NOT a niche hobby with very particular demographics despite claims to the contrary. Superheros are powerful global franchises that beautifully express the Zeitgeist of Americana perfectly. As such, blue chip comic boook OA will probably continue to climb in value, especially if the Yellen/Bernanke bankster syndicate keeps interest rates low and the dollar continues to be further devalued - which seems likely. And when we eventually get a real bout of inflation in this country, OA prices are really gonna soar.

 

That is not to say that some of the overpriced mediocre nostalgia driven art will not fall in price but quality art but the classic art by Kirby, Ditko, Romita and Buscema, Colan, will likely increase in price.

 

Just my

 

But don't just trust me. Listen to Vinny Z. from Metropolis Comics below :

 

Vinny Zurzolo - “Comic book art deserves to be held in the same regard and appreciated in the same way as fine art. Metropolis is the one place in New York that

folks can come and see first-class examples in an elegant, gallery

environment.”

 

or another quote from Vinny in August 2013

 

Scoop: Where do you see the market going over the next five years?

VZ: I believe the art market is very hot right now but in comparison to the “fine art market” it is still in its infancy. To this date I paid the highest amount for a piece of American comic art when I bought the cover to Amazing Spider-Man #328 for $657,250.00 last May. An American piece of comic art hasn’t broken the million dollar mark yet. It will. And I predict that will happen in the next three to five years. Comic book properties are doing well in the theaters and people aren’t stupid. They realize there is value behind these characters who are now anywhere from 25-75 years old.

 

Vinny & Stephen are super smart and are the TRUE unsung market geniuses of the comic book hobby. They have already demonstrated to me at least that they "get" this hobby. They are the true visionaries that have a proven track record.

[delekkerste]

Turn of the century illustration art has more momentum now than it ever has before. I know it's not exactly a perfect comparison, but there is a substantial nostalgic-driven component to Rockwell and Elvgren, etc., that has now driven the historical significance more toward a value based on its 'Americana' factor. People who pine for the Saturday Evening Post are mostly pining from graves.

 

I don't think all OA is going to follow suit, but I don't see Kirby twice up art crashing either.

 

I think there are loads of differences between the two mediums and markets. First, I don't think illustration art is as nostalgia-driven as comic books and OA, at least not in the same way. I think there's more of an appreciation of it as art and/or as a piece of history/Americana, and, given the way the Millennials' interest in the latter is likely to wane vs. their predecessors, I'm not sure that the future for 20th century illustration art looks terribly robust over a 20-30 year timeframe either. I'm not an antiques expert, but I don't think people today buy Depression-era glass or colonial furniture out of nostalgia, but rather for quasi-art and history and because our generation grew up with collecting material things as a big part of our lives (and probably our parents' and grandparents' lives as well).

 

Second, illustration art is a much smaller, niche market. The market for Elvgren and Leyendecker may appear robust, but how many collectors are actually out there? I suspect that more comic art pages are created each and every month than the top 10 most collected illustrators' produced in their lifetimes, combined. Third, Heritage basically created the market for illustration art over the past 10-15 years - I even wrote a paper about it in an NYU night class I took a couple years ago. That's great, but I'd really like to know the demographics of their clientele. I'm guessing that it skews even older than for comic art. Which, as with OA, may be fine for right now, but, again, I'm asking the question about what happens in 20-30 years (if not sooner)?

[delekkerste]

This thread is a decent read. I think those of you that side with Mankuta are gonna be DEAD WRONG in your predictions that comic OA will eventually stagnate.

 

Peter, all kidding aside, I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that you and Vinny prove to be correct. As I mentioned earlier, at this stage in my collecting career, I've probably spent at least 80% of all the (net) money I will ever spend in this hobby, so it would benefit me, personally, much, much more if prices were to continue to rise ad infinitum and if my collection were worth much, much more in the future that I'm expecting. While I'm prepared for the possibility that my collection takes a big hit (since I don't expect to sell any of my favorite pieces until after the demographics of this hobby will likely have turned negative), I'm not irrational - of course I'd prefer that it does very well.

 

That said, when I see outlooks like yours, it just seems like you're linearly extrapolating the experience of the past generation or two indefinitely into the future when there have been and will be some very obvious major disruptions going forward. There is no shortage of long-term trends that have, are or will be coming to an end because of the technological, cultural and demographic changes that are occurring, even some that preceded the entire history of American comic books. And, while superheroes may be as popular as ever, that doesn't necessarily translate into the Millennials having the aggregate interest and resources to replace all the Gen Xers and Baby Boomers out there who have collected the source material (comics and OA). If anything, I'm pretty sure that the new generations are going to grow up with the Marvel Cinematic/TV Universe as canon instead of the comics. I mean, sure, some will be curious enough to discover comics and then OA, but it's practically absurd to think that they will do so in the numbers required to supplant those who grew up with the material back when there were relatively few entertainment choices compared to the nearly unlimited options today.

 

Again, right now, the demographics are still positive. But, I'd like to see what the Action #1 9.0 and ASM #328 cover sell for in 25-30 years. My guess is that the long-term, real (inflation-adjusted) returns are mediocre at best, and quite possibly very poor. I also wouldn't be surprised if my good buddy and neighbor Vinny has F'ed off to some beachfront somewhere with his wife long before then.

[Kevn]

The market for illustration art existed long before HA. Heritage may have expanded it, and they may now dominate it, but they didn't create it.

 

Anyone who thinks they can accurately predict what current and future generations will or won't collect and admire is probably fooling themselves.

[delekkerste]

The market for illustration art existed long before HA. Heritage may have expanded it, and they may now dominate it, but they didn't create it.

 

Anyone who thinks they can accurately predict what current and future generations will or won't collect and admire is probably fooling themselves.

 

I didn't mean that they created it from nothing, but compare the illustration art market pre-Heritage vs. today and I don't think it's a stretch to say they created the market as we know it today.

 

I think you're wrong about the latter comment. I know you invest in the stock market. Can you say with any certainty if the S&P 500 will be higher or lower in 6 months or a year? Even two years or five? No, you can't. But, if I ask you if it'll be higher in 10, 20 or 30 years, we know that, the further out you go, the more likely it is that it will be higher. Similarly, the farther out you go, we know that the influence of Gen X and the Baby Boomers will wane and the Millennials and the generation that follows them will wax more and more influence on all markets, including collectibles like comics and OA.

 

I can't tell you with any certainty if the OA market will be higher or lower in 6 months, a year, two years or even five. But, if you ask me what happens in 20-30 years, where demography is destiny, some things become fairly obvious to those who can put aside their love of the medium for a moment and step outside of their OA bubble world.

[suspense39]

This thread is a decent read. I think those of you that side with Mankuta are gonna be DEAD WRONG in your predictions that comic OA will eventually stagnate.

 

The very fact that Action Comics # 1 has just recently reached stratospheric new sale price of $3+ million dollars is further evidence that blue chip quality comic book related materials will continue to climb in value. OA included.

 

Rich people will ALWAYS buy assets that act as trophies and function as a safe deposit box equivalent. And OA is NOT a niche hobby with very particular demographics despite claims to the contrary. Superheros are powerful global franchises that beautifully express the Zeitgeist of Americana perfectly. As such, blue chip comic boook OA will probably continue to climb in value, especially if the Yellen/Bernanke bankster syndicate keeps interest rates low and the dollar continues to be further devalued - which seems likely. And when we eventually get a real bout of inflation in this country, OA prices are really gonna soar.

 

That is not to say that some of the overpriced mediocre nostalgia driven art will not fall in price but quality art but the classic art by Kirby, Ditko, Romita and Buscema, Colan, will likely increase in price.

 

Just my

 

But don't just trust me. Listen to Vinny Z. from Metropolis Comics below :

 

Vinny Zurzolo - “Comic book art deserves to be held in the same regard and appreciated in the same way as fine art. Metropolis is the one place in New York that

folks can come and see first-class examples in an elegant, gallery

environment.”

 

or another quote from Vinny in August 2013

 

Scoop: Where do you see the market going over the next five years?

VZ: I believe the art market is very hot right now but in comparison to the “fine art market” it is still in its infancy. To this date I paid the highest amount for a piece of American comic art when I bought the cover to Amazing Spider-Man #328 for $657,250.00 last May. An American piece of comic art hasn’t broken the million dollar mark yet. It will. And I predict that will happen in the next three to five years. Comic book properties are doing well in the theaters and people aren’t stupid. They realize there is value behind these characters who are now anywhere from 25-75 years old.

 

Vinny & Stephen are super smart and are the TRUE unsung market geniuses of the comic book hobby. They have already demonstrated to me at least that they "get" this hobby. They are the true visionaries that have a proven track record.

 

They are also salesman and business owners with a huge stake in things moving forward.....I would hope that they would have this attitude. But just because they believe it doesn't mean it's a fact.

[pinupcartoonguy]

Re Illustration art, a good chunk of it is pin-up art. Regardless of the genre, good girl art always sells!

[vodou]

That said, looking at this list, you'd have to say that this is a well-below par offering of covers for a Heritage Signature auction.

A relative statement there depending on one's specific interests (which I neither agree nor disagree with).

 

However, for the first time ever -at Heritage or anywhere else public- one of my (little "g") grails has come up. It's from the short list I mentally created nearly twenty years ago and did not ever expect to see anything from. And haven't. Which is good because I used to always be broke and wouldn't have been able to make a move. These days I'm not. If there's an extreme outlier lot this sale, know it's me that bid to rafters.

 

And that's all I write re: this lot until pre-sale

[vodou]

And that's all I write re: this lot until pre-sale

Oops

[vodou]

[i didn't mean that they created it from [i]nothing[/i], but compare the illustration art market pre-Heritage vs. today and I don't think it's a stretch to say they created the market as we know it today.

Yes HA vastly expanded it by carpetbombing Illustration sales on a largely unresponsive audience. Perhaps only the last five years, maybe eight have produced very nice numbers. But the early years? Mitch has plenty of perspective on this in private company, he's even posted his opinions publicly occasionally. More importantly, where would this HA-created (or whatever) Illustration market be without the Martignette Collection? Take that the Warren archives away and...

 

So kudos to them for nailing those hoards, and the Harvey warehouse from Geppi, but that's just bringing high quality material to the table and cross-branding it with yourself. IMO

[delekkerste]

They are also salesman and business owners with a huge stake in things moving forward.....I would hope that they would have this attitude. But just because they believe it doesn't mean it's a fact.

 

Yeah, there was an interview on TV that Vinny did not that long ago where he said he could see comic books selling for 9-figures one day (I assume he meant U.S. dollars and not Vietnamese dong ). I responded on his Facebook page that I wouldn't want to live in a world where comics sell for more than a hundred million dollars - can you imagine what a loaf of bread would cost in that scenario?

 

So, yeah...salesmanship.

[delekkerste]

Lots of Bolland goodness in that cover, but I'm put off by the awkwardness of Supe's pose, and the funky foreshortening on the legs. It's also an example of the way super-detailed artists like Bolland can turn a dynamic situation/pose into something static.

 

While I agree for the most part, I personally don't care for too much photo-realism and a 'slavish' commitment to perfect anatomy in comic art. And I don't think of Bolland as a very dynamic 'action pose' artist to begin with! Instead, I think of Bolland as more of a 'cerebral' artist. Where you just want to stare at the picture just a little bit longer to admire the details and let the picture tell the story. Most of his covers, it seems to me, are static-pose compositions by nature (a result of relying heavily on 'static' photo imagery for reference? ). Supes enemy forcing the Man of Steel into an almost impossibly awkward position with Lex quivering in fear in the background? There's enough 'action' and intrigue in this shot, I feel, to keep it from a 'boring,' static fate, at least. This cover almost seems like 'dynamite' compared to the handful of other Bolland/Superman covers as well, though YMMV...

 

The image doesn't come off as "static" to me, and the foreshortening doesn't distract at all in my eyes. I mean, if you want bizarre foreshortening in the legs, how about Nick Fury's right leg on Steranko's SHIELD #7 cover? Or look at the ridiculous length of Cap's legs on Kirby's Cap #108 cover (heck, Cap's anatomy could hardly be more wrong in the first panel of my Kirby TOS #94 page, but the image is still awesome six ways to Sunday). Or how about Wolvie's stumpy leg on the UXM #173 cover? I'm still a fan of all of these examples cited; it's comic art and, like yourself, I don't care for a slavish commitment to perfect anatomy either as long as the image "works"!

[Bronty]

Always go long on dong!

[Kevn]

The market for illustration art existed long before HA. Heritage may have expanded it, and they may now dominate it, but they didn't create it.

 

Anyone who thinks they can accurately predict what current and future generations will or won't collect and admire is probably fooling themselves.

 

I didn't mean that they created it from nothing, but ...

 

Since the word 'create' means to bring into existence from nothing then I don't know how else you could have meant it.

 

I think you're wrong about the latter comment. I know you invest in the stock market. Can you say with any certainty if the S&P 500 will be higher or lower in 6 months or a year? Even two years or five? No, you can't. But, if I ask you if it'll be higher in 10, 20 or 30 years, we know that, the further out you go, the more likely it is that it will be higher. Similarly, the farther out you go, we know that the influence of Gen X and the Baby Boomers will wane and the Millennials and the generation that follows them will wax more and more influence on all markets, including collectibles like comics and OA.

 

I've bolded the key word there. What you say about the stock market is true. But there is nothing similar between the long term pattern of the stock market and the demographics of Gen X/Baby Boomers in relation to the OA market. It is a complete non sequitur.

 

I stand by my certainty that anyone who expresses certainty about what future generations will do, as collectors or investors, is very likely fooling themselves.

[delekkerste]

I stand by my certainty that anyone who expresses certainty about what future generations will do, as collectors or investors, is very likely fooling themselves.

 

The only people fooling themselves are those who think that future generations will act in exactly the same manner as past generations and linearly extrapolate their own historical experience indefinitely into the future.

[Kevn]

Lots of Bolland goodness in that cover, but I'm put off by the awkwardness of Supe's pose, and the funky foreshortening on the legs. It's also an example of the way super-detailed artists like Bolland can turn a dynamic situation/pose into something static.

 

While I agree for the most part, I personally don't care for too much photo-realism and a 'slavish' commitment to perfect anatomy in comic art. And I don't think of Bolland as a very dynamic 'action pose' artist to begin with! Instead, I think of Bolland as more of a 'cerebral' artist. Where you just want to stare at the picture just a little bit longer to admire the details and let the picture tell the story. Most of his covers, it seems to me, are static-pose compositions by nature (a result of relying heavily on 'static' photo imagery for reference? ). Supes enemy forcing the Man of Steel into an almost impossibly awkward position with Lex quivering in fear in the background? There's enough 'action' and intrigue in this shot, I feel, to keep it from a 'boring,' static fate, at least. This cover almost seems like 'dynamite' compared to the handful of other Bolland/Superman covers as well, though YMMV...

 

 

Didn't mean to imply that I prefer perfect anatomy. It's the nature of the exaggeration and the artful caricature of reality that I love. I can admire, say, Neal Adams, but I've never had the slightest urge to collect his art.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head when you referred to relying heavily on 'static' photo imagery for reference. The same thing happens when one draws from a live model, and the model tries to hold an 'action' pose. It just ends up feeling wrong.

 

I think this is one of the main reasons a lot of current popular artists leave me cold. Tons of detail, and everything looks like a still frame from an HD movie. Perfect and static. And no excitement.

[Kevn]

I wonder if the people who loudly obsess about the supposed coming crash in OA values ever consider that they're helping create a negative, money/investment-focused culture that might help bring about exactly what they seem to most fear.

 

I found this forum after not paying attention to the world of comic book OA for a while, and I was excited when I found this forum and CAF. I expected to get a chance to wax poetic over some of my favorite art and artists, to learn from people who had spent time studying certain artists, and learn about what new artists are doing interesting, worthwhile stuff. And frankly, there's precious little of that kind of discussion here. I wonder what a young person with a serious affection for comics and art, who is considering starting to collect OA, would think of this forum. I think it would be a big turn off.

 

This thread was started to talk about a specific auction. Has there been any discussion about the actual art in that auction?

 

You made this post complaining about OA financial discussions and come across smarmy as if you think you're better than others here. Someone suggests you create a discussion thread focusing on the art. You create that thread and lead off with "In the interest of stimulating discussion of the art that we obsess over, rather than obsessing over the economics of collecting"- yet you're still on this thread, talking about economics (and coming across pissy, to boot). May be time to get off the soapbox.

 

Bill, not sure what I did to annoy you. I haven't engaged in an ad hominem attacks, and I'd just as soon not have them directed at me. I have the feeling you're reading into my comments an attitude that isn't there. If you read what I wrote, it wasn't to complain about financial discussions. I love financial discussions. I expressed my opinion about what I saw as some misinformation, and also my reaction to the recurring theme here that I can best summarize as a self-reinforcing negativity about the future of OA collecting.

[Kevn]

I stand by my certainty that anyone who expresses certainty about what future generations will do, as collectors or investors, is very likely fooling themselves.

 

The only people fooling themselves are those who think that future generations will act in exactly the same manner as past generations and linearly extrapolate their own historical experience indefinitely into the future.

 

I agree 100% that such people would also be fooling themselves.

[*paull*]

I wonder if the people who loudly obsess about the supposed coming crash in OA values ever consider that they're helping create a negative, money/investment-focused culture that might help bring about exactly what they seem to most fear.

 

I found this forum after not paying attention to the world of comic book OA for a while, and I was excited when I found this forum and CAF. I expected to get a chance to wax poetic over some of my favorite art and artists, to learn from people who had spent time studying certain artists, and learn about what new artists are doing interesting, worthwhile stuff. And frankly, there's precious little of that kind of discussion here. I wonder what a young person with a serious affection for comics and art, who is considering starting to collect OA, would think of this forum. I think it would be a big turn off.

 

This thread was started to talk about a specific auction. Has there been any discussion about the actual art in that auction?

 

You made this post complaining about OA financial discussions and come across smarmy as if you think you're better than others here. Someone suggests you create a discussion thread focusing on the art. You create that thread and lead off with "In the interest of stimulating discussion of the art that we obsess over, rather than obsessing over the economics of collecting"- yet you're still on this thread, talking about economics (and coming across pissy, to boot). May be time to get off the soapbox.

 

Bill, not sure what I did to annoy you. I haven't engaged in an ad hominem attacks, and I'd just as soon not have them directed at me. I have the feeling you're reading into my comments an attitude that isn't there. If you read what I wrote, it wasn't to complain about financial discussions. I love financial discussions. I expressed my opinion about what I saw as some misinformation, and also my reaction to the recurring theme here that I can best summarize as a self-reinforcing negativity about the future of OA collecting.

 

If the discussion was bullish about the financial health and outlook of the OA market, would that make you feel better? If so, go back a few years here on the Boards when there were daily pollyanna shill posts by a couple of members.

 

What do you see in this thread as misinformation?

[Bronty]

I stand by my certainty that anyone who expresses certainty about what future generations will do, as collectors or investors, is very likely fooling themselves.

 

The only people fooling themselves are those who think that future generations will act in exactly the same manner as past generations and linearly extrapolate their own historical experience indefinitely into the future.

 

I agree but I also think the flip side is true. People are people, and while upbringing and generational experiences have some effect at the same time people in 1965 arent THAT different than people in 2015. The article you linked mentioned them eschewing possessions and houses in the suburbs to live simply in urban areas. They are also in their 20s and that's a very '20s' attitude. The couple in the article that talks about living happily in their 700 sq ft apartment is going to long wistfully for that backyard and picket fence once she pops a kid or two out in her 30s. It's cute that they 'hate clutter' now but let's talk to them when they have a stroller/glider/change table/baby toys/diaper genie/walker/whatever else taking up literally half of their apartment.

 

And let's not forget that some of this has been chosen for them. In my area as an example today's commute is at least double what it used to be 25 years ago and house prices are 6x what they were then. For most young people wanting to live within a manageable distance of work, a small place closer to the city is their only option because travel into the city is slower than it was... meaning that to stay within 45 minutes of the city - like their parents did - they have to geographically be a lot closer.

 

In other words every generation may be a little different but let's never forget that young generations are going to have that young mindset. If we look at the late 60s when the boomers were young it was all about peace love and happiness and smoking a little grass - again a very early 20s attitude. Fast forward 15 years and that same peace and love generation was suddenly very much more interested in material things - the 'me' decade - and so will the millenials attitudes changes enormously as they age. Now the things they will want in the future may not be OA pages (!) but they will very much have their own more material interests in time.