Amazing Spider-Man 667 1:100 Dell'Otto Variant

[r100comics]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

RMA, Bababooey, jsilverjanet-

 

A B&W Mouse Guard just sold yesterday for over $1500. And not only were there "only" two bidders who participated in that auction, but two TOTAL bids placed.

 

Please take your circus over to their appreciation thread and lecture them on how that auction result is meaningless, how the creator of the book most definitely has several cases of the book sitting uncirculated in his garage, and how "pedestrian" the artwork is. And make sure you email the seller on ebay to tell him that it is only "imaginary, goodwill money" that he will be collecting and pocketing since "only" two people tried half heartedly to win his book. I'm sure he really wants to hear from you too.

 

In what universe does a mass-produced variant of some random ASM issue have anything to do with a self-published

first issue of a very popular indie series?

 

...the fact that they have a very comparable print run, which makes the ASM 667 all the more anomalous since it was released by a major publisher. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

Give or take. And with very few retailers ordering enough batches of 100 to qualify for the incentive. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

Well, that's for sure. You always err on the extreme low end based solely on the very limited information you have.

 

Unless it doesn't suit your agenda.

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

Well, you can see what is online, which is a significant part of the market. However, the CGC census still means very little to the hobby as a whole and I'm pretty sure you know as little as most and less than many about the contents of other people's collections.

 

RMA, is that you ?

 

Actually the census can be and is a useful tool for getting a litmus on a book's availability, particularly a very high dollar modern variant that has gone for large sums of money right out the gate, and was released in the Era of the Slab. Those are notorious slab bait, and everyone knows that. Whether you choose to openly agree with it or dispute it just for the sake of being your usual contrarian self is entirely irrelevant.

 

Why do you need to make this personal, and make personal comments about people...? It's not necessary, Jay.

 

Right now there are only 19 slabs of this four year old book on the census- a book that has sold for $800++ and up raw on the rare occasion one surfaces, for years now. Even if that was just one-tenth of the population in circulation, that would still put the available amount at- wait for it- about 200.

 

-J.

 

 

Again...the census only tells part of the picture, and only very broadly at that. It would be a mistake to assume the census paints accurate pictures, especially of very limited books like ASM #667 D'O.

 

(We won't get into the fact that you argued the opposite re: ASM #301...that's for another thread.)

 

Example: you stated, quite famously, that there were probably only around 100 copies of the Sandman #8 variant still in existence.

 

You based that on the census count of 34 total copies.

 

However, there are now 46 copies on the census.

 

That's a whopping 35% increase in just the past year.

 

If I may borrow your logic....does that mean that there are about 460 copies of Sandman #8 variant in existence....?

 

 

Once again, you famously mis-quote what I actually said about sandman 8b.

 

And when we had the discussion, there were 36 copies on the census. There are 46 now? Two of those are the raw copies that mschmidt claimed in that same thread. Seems to me we are still pretty far under 100, even if that was what I actually stated.

 

No, you aren't following my logic. There is an extraordinary likelihood that far, far more than just 10% of remaining copies of sandman 8b are slabbed. Far more. I was speaking from a least case scenario perspective to make a point about the 667 dell'otto, and that book only (since that book is, you know, the subject of the thread).

 

I'm sure that was obvious.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

Give or take. And with very few retailers ordering enough batches of 100 to qualify for the incentive. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Again...not relevant, because the books are distributed, not printed, to order.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

Well, that's for sure. You always err on the extreme low end based solely on the very limited information you have.

 

Unless it doesn't suit your agenda.

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

Well, you can see what is online, which is a significant part of the market. However, the CGC census still means very little to the hobby as a whole and I'm pretty sure you know as little as most and less than many about the contents of other people's collections.

 

RMA, is that you ?

 

Actually the census can be and is a useful tool for getting a litmus on a book's availability, particularly a very high dollar modern variant that has gone for large sums of money right out the gate, and was released in the Era of the Slab. Those are notorious slab bait, and everyone knows that. Whether you choose to openly agree with it or dispute it just for the sake of being your usual contrarian self is entirely irrelevant.

 

Why do you need to make this personal, and make personal comments about people...? It's not necessary, Jay.

 

Right now there are only 19 slabs of this four year old book on the census- a book that has sold for $800++ and up raw on the rare occasion one surfaces, for years now. Even if that was just one-tenth of the population in circulation, that would still put the available amount at- wait for it- about 200.

 

-J.

 

 

Again...the census only tells part of the picture, and only very broadly at that. It would be a mistake to assume the census paints accurate pictures, especially of very limited books like ASM #667 D'O.

 

(We won't get into the fact that you argued the opposite re: ASM #301...that's for another thread.)

 

Example: you stated, quite famously, that there were probably only around 100 copies of the Sandman #8 variant still in existence.

 

You based that on the census count of 34 total copies.

 

However, there are now 46 copies on the census.

 

That's a whopping 35% increase in just the past year.

 

If I may borrow your logic....does that mean that there are about 460 copies of Sandman #8 variant in existence....?

 

 

Once again, you famously mis-quote what I actually said about sandman 8b.

 

And what is that mis-quotation?

 

And when we had the discussion, there were 36 copies on the census. There are 46 now? Two of those are the raw copies that mschmidt claimed in that same thread. Seems to me we are still pretty far under 100, even if that was what I actually stated.

 

There were 34 copies on the census at the time (which is easily verifiable), not 36.

 

Quibble? Maybe. Details matter.

 

You said there were ~100 (or "fewer than") copies total extant, and used the 34 figure on the census to come to that conclusion. Seems awfully bizarre to add 35% more copies to the census if there are only ~100 copies in existence total.

 

And nearly half of that extant total sitting in slabs....?

 

 

You would be hard pressed to find any book with nearly half the extant copies sitting in slabs, except perhaps the very rarest and most valuable Golden Age books.

 

No, you aren't following my logic. There is an extraordinary likelihood that far, far more than just 10% of remaining copies of sandman 8b are slabbed. Far more.

 

I just borrowed your logic...I didn't say I followed it.

 

But what do you base this "extraordinary likelihood" on...?

 

Gut feeling?

 

 

I was speaking from a least case scenario perspective to make a point about the 667 dell'otto, and that book only (since that book is, you know, the subject of the thread).

 

I'm sure that was obvious.

 

-J.

 

Of course....since there are only 19 copies of this book on the census, ipso facto, there are only about 200 copies in existence...?

 

 

Maybe there's only 19 copies in existence....

[Jaydogrules]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

Give or take. And with very few retailers ordering enough batches of 100 to qualify for the incentive. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Again...not relevant, because the books are distributed, not printed, to order.

 

 

The irony of nearly all of your statements is that they fail to take into consideration that the 667 Dell'otto is quite clearly an anomaly on the market, both in its print run and distribution. A perfect storm of events that was not anticipated by The Market created a freakishly rare book within a mainstream title. These things happen sometimes.

 

That's the kind of thing that can make something highly collectible and valuable.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

Give or take. And with very few retailers ordering enough batches of 100 to qualify for the incentive. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Again...not relevant, because the books are distributed, not printed, to order.

 

 

The irony of nearly all of your statements is that they fail to take into consideration that the 667 Dell'otto is quite clearly an anomaly on the market, both in its print run and distribution. A perfect storm of events that was not anticipated by The Market created a freakishly rare book within a mainstream title. These things happen sometimes.

 

Based on what...? How do you draw this conclusion, Jay?

 

Gut feeling?

 

It can't be an ironic lack of consideration on my part if it's not really an anomaly.

 

What evidence do you actually have that ASM #667 is an "anomaly", and in what way? You don't KNOW its print run, and you don't KNOW its distribution. Only Marvel and/or Diamond knows that. If you have documentation supporting your statements, by all means, don't hold back. Share it already.

 

If you don't have documentation...then you're just speculating based on market appearances and the census.

 

Because what you're describing has already happened before: an item that was previously thought to be "extremely rare" is discovered to be not so rare after all, causing values to crash.

 

Yes, the market and census are indicators...but they are ONLY indicators, and don't paint the whole picture.

 

I've got ~ 25% of the print run of Vampirella #1 (1997) Royal Blue...25 copies of the 100 copy print run...and I've sold 2-3 of them. There are 8 on the census. For the last 15+ years, they have appeared on eBay roughly 40-50 times.

 

In that same time, I've owned TWO Vengeance of Vampirella #1 RBs, and seen only 3-4 more. There are only 4 on the census. For the past 15+ years, they have only appeared on eBay (and Heritage) 6-8 times.

 

Does that mean there are half (or less) of Vengeance #1 RB than the 1997 #1 still in existence...?

 

No, of course not. It simply means that those who have the Vengeance #1 RB are holding more tightly to their copies.

[mschmidt]

RMA, Bababooey, jsilverjanet-

 

A B&W Mouse Guard just sold yesterday for over $1500. And not only were there "only" two bidders who participated in that auction, but two TOTAL bids placed.

 

Please take your circus over to their appreciation thread and lecture them on how that auction result is meaningless, how the creator of the book most definitely has several cases of the book sitting uncirculated in his garage, and how "pedestrian" the artwork is. And make sure you email the seller on ebay to tell him that it is only "imaginary, goodwill money" that he will be collecting and pocketing since "only" two people tried half heartedly to win his book. I'm sure he really wants to hear from you too.

 

In what universe does a mass-produced variant of some random ASM issue have anything to do with a self-published

first issue of a very popular indie series?

 

...the fact that they have a very comparable print run, which makes the ASM 667 all the more anomalous since it was released by a major publisher. (thumbs u

 

The Mouse Guard #1 Comixpress had a print run of 250 copies - this has been confirmed by Petersen (who, incidentally, only has 2 copies left himself). The book is significant because it's a #1 of a popular, long-running indie series.

 

Nobody knows what the print run of the ASM book is - the book has no significance other than the fact that it, supposedly, has a low print run.

 

Still don't see the comparison :shrug:

[Jaydogrules]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

Give or take. And with very few retailers ordering enough batches of 100 to qualify for the incentive. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Again...not relevant, because the books are distributed, not printed, to order.

 

 

The irony of nearly all of your statements is that they fail to take into consideration that the 667 Dell'otto is quite clearly an anomaly on the market, both in its print run and distribution. A perfect storm of events that was not anticipated by The Market created a freakishly rare book within a mainstream title. These things happen sometimes.

 

Based on what...? How do you draw this conclusion, Jay?

 

Gut feeling?

 

It can't be an ironic lack of consideration on my part if it's not really an anomaly.

 

What evidence do you actually have that ASM #667 is an "anomaly", and in what way? You don't KNOW its print run, and you don't KNOW its distribution. Only Marvel and/or Diamond knows that. If you have documentation supporting your statements, by all means, don't hold back. Share it already.

 

If you don't have documentation...then you're just speculating based on market appearances and the census.

 

Because what you're describing has already happened before: an item that was previously thought to be "extremely rare" is discovered to be not so rare after all, causing values to crash.

 

Yes, the market and census are indicators...but they are ONLY indicators, and don't paint the whole picture.

 

I've got ~ 25% of the print run of Vampirella #1 (1997) Royal Blue...25 copies of the 100 copy print run...and I've sold 2-3 of them. There are 8 on the census. For the last 15+ years, they have appeared on eBay roughly 40-50 times.

 

In that same time, I've owned TWO Vengeance of Vampirella #1 RBs, and seen only 3-4 more. There are only 4 on the census. For the past 15+ years, they have only appeared on eBay (and Heritage) 6-8 times.

 

Does that mean there are half (or less) of Vengeance #1 RB than the 1997 #1 still in existence...?

 

No, of course not. It simply means that those who have the Vengeance #1 RB are holding more tightly to their copies.

 

Your examples are still not comparable to this, a rare modern RI variant that was released in the slab era and has gone for large sums since practically its release (it has been renowned for its extraordinary rarity since Day One as well). Dealers and re-sellers can't slab books like that fast enough.

 

You have your thoughts and notions, and that's fine and dandy.

 

But The Market disagrees with you. Don't like it? Don't buy the book. Assuming you could find one. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Some rambling thoughts.

 

I'm enjoying the discussion and it's really no different to any of the appreciation threads, they are rarely a unanimous love-in.

 

It's pretty simple - the price is a product of the lack of supply. As long as supply stays low the price will hold.

 

The sale price is the sale price, irrespective of how many bidders were at that level. GPA doesn't reflect market depth, it reflects sale price. It only takes 2 bidders at any given auction for the price to hold.

 

The Dell'Otto is a nice cover, much better than the MJ variant, and that will be telling in the long run (for both books).

 

Marvel are not pulping books, they are a business, so it's pretty unlikely there are only 200 copies.

 

Books that were pulped and genuinely do only have 200 copies are one's like LOEG #5 (Recalled) which had to be destroyed for legal reasons after 1 shipment had already made it to the UK.

 

 

 

OP notified - too much logic in your post

 

Odd.. I was just about to PM you his post myself.

 

Though I do still err on the extreme low end of the estimates that I have seen for how many available copies that are out there (and I've seen some estimates below 200 even, all the way down to 150).

 

The utter dearth of them on the market, in collections, and on the census speaks for itself.

 

-J.

 

 

Weren't there 80,000 copies of #667 printed ?

 

You've titled this thread 1:100 variant.....

 

 

Give or take. And with very few retailers ordering enough batches of 100 to qualify for the incentive. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Again...not relevant, because the books are distributed, not printed, to order.

 

 

The irony of nearly all of your statements is that they fail to take into consideration that the 667 Dell'otto is quite clearly an anomaly on the market, both in its print run and distribution. A perfect storm of events that was not anticipated by The Market created a freakishly rare book within a mainstream title. These things happen sometimes.

 

Based on what...? How do you draw this conclusion, Jay?

 

Gut feeling?

 

It can't be an ironic lack of consideration on my part if it's not really an anomaly.

 

What evidence do you actually have that ASM #667 is an "anomaly", and in what way? You don't KNOW its print run, and you don't KNOW its distribution. Only Marvel and/or Diamond knows that. If you have documentation supporting your statements, by all means, don't hold back. Share it already.

 

If you don't have documentation...then you're just speculating based on market appearances and the census.

 

Because what you're describing has already happened before: an item that was previously thought to be "extremely rare" is discovered to be not so rare after all, causing values to crash.

 

Yes, the market and census are indicators...but they are ONLY indicators, and don't paint the whole picture.

 

I've got ~ 25% of the print run of Vampirella #1 (1997) Royal Blue...25 copies of the 100 copy print run...and I've sold 2-3 of them. There are 8 on the census. For the last 15+ years, they have appeared on eBay roughly 40-50 times.

 

In that same time, I've owned TWO Vengeance of Vampirella #1 RBs, and seen only 3-4 more. There are only 4 on the census. For the past 15+ years, they have only appeared on eBay (and Heritage) 6-8 times.

 

Does that mean there are half (or less) of Vengeance #1 RB than the 1997 #1 still in existence...?

 

No, of course not. It simply means that those who have the Vengeance #1 RB are holding more tightly to their copies.

 

Your examples are still not comparable to this, a rare modern RI variant that was released in the slab era and has gone for large sums since practically its release (it has been renowned for its extraordinary rarity since Day One as well).

 

Documentation...? Will you ever produce real evidence to support your claims? You steadfastly refuse to answer the hard questions, Jay. I'm going to keep asking them, though.

 

What evidence do you have that ASM #667 is an "anomaly", and in what way?

 

Dealers and re-sellers can't slab books like that fast enough.

 

Who says these books are in the hands of dealers and re-sellers?

 

You have your thoughts and notions, and that's fine and dandy.

 

But The Market disagrees with you. Don't like it? Don't buy the book. Assuming you could find one. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

"The Market" doesn't disagree with me. Your interpretation of "The Market" disagrees with me. And, as has been demonstrated, your interpretation of "The Market" is wanting. And you still assume I don't have one, or don't want one, or dislike that they sell for what they sell for. These are assumptions, Jay, based on your own projections. You think a certain way, so everyone else must think that same way. It's a logical fallacy.

 

Hard data, Jay. All else is rank speculation.

[Jaydogrules]

Did you read my original post ? I quite clearly stated that the "school of thought" was that there are as little as 200 copies out there. That implies a speculative figure, since actual variant numbers are not released. However we can make an educated guess about what we observe on the market, on the census, and what people have to say on chat boards like these.

 

This isn't a court of law and I don't need to prove a case to you.

 

I started an appreciation thread for this book because I like it and I know others out there do as well. Regardless of what YOU think, the conventional wisdom is that the book is extremely rare (which it is), tough to find (which it is) and valuable (again, yup). Yet, for some unknown reason you have decided to take it upon yourself to bring your unique brand of toxic posting to this particular thread, when you can just easily go muck up some other appreciation thread where God forbid somebody might say something that you disagree with. Yet you continue to post here, in an APPRECIATION THREAD for a book whose cover art you called "pedestrian" (only showing your lack of taste), content you called "meaningless" (it was actually Part 1 of a major story arc) and whose print run, despite all indicators to the contrary, you believe to be 10 times what would be anything rational or reasonable.

 

Please, just stop. You made your points. As wrong as they may be, you've made them. Go start your own thread and stop alienating the other, positive and productive contributors to these boards.

 

Geesh!

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Did you read my original post ? I quite clearly stated that the "school of thought" was that there are as little as 200 copies out there. That implies a speculative figure, since actual variant numbers are not released. However we can make an educated guess about what we observe on the market, on the census, and what people have to say on chat boards like these.

 

That is correct. We CAN make an educated guess about what we observe on the market, on the census, and what people have to say on chat boards like this.

 

And MY educated guess, based on what I know as a specializer in variants for 20+ years, is that there are between 1000-2000 copies of this book in existence, they were printed in those numbers, and, aside from damages, have remained in those numbers. Marvel doesn't "pulp" modern variants, and has a resale program for them (that you were apparently unaware of.) I also know that Marvel's 1:X program is a distribution number, not a print run number (which you were also apparently not aware of, or willing to acknowledge), and that Marvel both stores and sells off these after-the-fact variants to Diamond accounts on a regular or semi-regular basis.

 

They appear infrequently on the market and on the census, which is an indicator of scarcity, but only an indicator, and since Marvel has **never** published a book with a print run of "200" in its entire history (I'll be happy to be proven wrong), then what makes anyone think this random variant, not even a particularly difficult 1:100 in distribution, is the sole and only exception to that rule?

 

So....what are your bona fides...?

 

 

This isn't a court of law and I don't need to prove a case to you.

 

You certainly don't....but if you're going to make a claim, you should probably be either A. willing to support it, or B. state you're unwilling to support it, and move on.

 

I started an appreciation thread for this book because I like it and I know others out there do as well. Regardless of what YOU think, the conventional wisdom is that the book is extremely rare (which it is), tough to find (which it is) and valuable (again, yup).

 

Jay...you keep stating things that are not in dispute. These are classic red herrings. No one has said the book isn't "extremely rare", or "tough to find", or "valuable." Clearly, the book is VERY difficult to find in the market, as it exists at this time.

 

The issue isn't any of those things, and never has been. If 2,000,000 people want something, and only 50,000 of that thing exists, it will ALSO be perceived as "extremely rare", "tough to find", and "valuable." It's all relative.

 

Yet, for some unknown reason you have decided to take it upon yourself to bring your unique brand of toxic posting to this particular thread for some reason, when you can just easily go muck up some other

appreciation thread where God forbid somebody might say something that you disagree with.

 

Jay...you're making this personal. This isn't a personal issue. If you want to make it personal, the one with the problem isn't me. I'm only having a discussion. If you think someone challenging you on the internet is "toxic posting", you probably don't belong on the internet.

 

Yet you continue to post here, in an APPRECIATION THREAD for a book whose cover art you called "pedestrian" (only showing your lack of taste),

 

Or, more accurately, my disagreement with your personal preferences.

 

content you called "meaningless",

 

You'll have to point out where I said the content was "meaningless." I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise. I suspect the reality is that I said the issue isn't anything particularly special, which is a shade different from "meaningless." Is the issue a first appearance of a popular character? A major event? Part of an influential storyline?

 

No, not really.

 

and whose print run, despite all indicators to the contrary, you believe to be 10 times what would be anything rational or reasonable.

 

What indicators to the contrary...?

 

Please, just stop. You made your points. As wrong as they may be, you've made them. Go start your own thread and stop alienating the other, positive and productive contributors to these boards.

 

Jay, I can tell you the same thing. Yet, you continue to post. You made your points. As wrong as they may be, you've made them. Go start your own thread and stop alienating the other, positive and productive contributors to these boards.

 

Same exact thing. What makes Jay special? What gives Jay the right to tell anyone how, where, and what to post? I could tell you the same thing, but I won't. It's none of my business, and highly presumptuous to tell someone else how, where, and what to post...so why are you doing it to me?

 

It's not personal, Jay.

 

Contrary to your assertions, I very much appreciate this book, as I do all variants. I'm a variant guy. But, because I don't appreciate it in a way that Jaydogrules finds acceptable, now I'm making "toxic posts", "alienating positive, productive contributors", and not allowed to post...?

 

Geesh!

 

-J.

 

Indeed.

[jreezy]

RMA- Are you referring to all marvel variants or just ratio variants? What about Convention variants? Even convention variants have a print run of 1k-2k?

[Jaydogrules]

RMA- Are you referring to all marvel variants or just ratio variants? What about Convention variants? Even convention variants have a print run of 1k-2k?

 

He doesn't know.

 

Convention variants are a different animal. There is no limit on how many the publisher prints, or who they give them to or where at.

 

I'm assuming you're wondering about your UXM 510 sketch?

 

Estimates on that one are around 500. That book has only 15 slabbed copies as of now. However due to the way they were distributed that book is less likely to be slabbed as it was handed out to fans at a convention and not sold to dealers through an RI program.

 

Again, that is the flaw in RMA'S statements about the 667. Retailers and re-sellers had to order so many copies of the regular cover just to get one copy, they have every incentive to immediately slab a rare variant that heats up so they can recoup their investment and maybe make a little more on top.

 

Which is why this book's scarcity is so unusual.

 

-J.

[jreezy]

I'm wondering about convention variants in general. In addition to the uncanny Xmen 510 sketch and the black panther #1 sketch by Campbell.

 

Also, what about those "redemption variants" like the wolverine #1 deadpool mashup or the Seige #3 cover. Those also have a 1k-2k print run?

 

The Michael turner sketch of UXM #500? Wolverine Nabisco Variant?

 

If so, why are all the census numbers so low on these books if there are a minimum of 1500 copies for all marvel variants?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rjrjr]

I'm wondering about the uncanny Xmen 510 sketch and the black panther #1 sketch by Campbell. These were only given at conventions.

 

Also, what about those "redemption variants" like the wolverine #1 deadpool mashup or the Seige #3 cover. Those also have a 1k-2k print run?

 

If so, why are all the census numbers so low on these books if there are so many floating around?

 

 

 

 

There is precedence for convention variants to show up at online retailer sites for resale after they are distributed at conventions. I know DCBS has sold convention exclusives over the years. Not every exclusive, but enough to make it apparent that whatever is printed does make its way out to the market eventually.

 

What is a redemption variant BTW?

 

What isn't known and what is speculation is how many of these variants (ratio'd, convention, probably even redemption, etc.) are printed. Ultimately, I don't think it really matter, IMHO. If a book is in demand by collectors for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to matter the print number as long as demand exceeds supply. A book could have 50 copies printed and be worthless if nobody cares to own the book. Or a book could have a print run of 50,000 and be worth a bit if people want the book.

 

Available supply and demand is the key however. There could be 1000 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #667 1:100 Dell'Otto variant, but it doesn't matter if only 1 or 2 sell a year, the demand is there, and the rest are locked up in collection, sitting in a warehouse, etc. What makes collecting fun is supply can change over time (but probably not by much in most cases) AND demand can also change (this is more likely.) This dynamic is what makes it possible for collectors to buy books for cheap that will someday be more valuable, but also get burned by buying books for too much only to see the demand dissipate.

 

I've been following the back and forth on this thread for the past 24 hours or so and I'm at a loss to see how this thread isn't going to end like every other thread of its kind.

[jreezy]

Thanks for the reply RJRJR.

 

Clarification on the redemption variant. The only way retailers were able to obtain the Wolverine #1 and Seige 3 variants was that they had to return 50 stripped covers back to marvel.

 

 

[rjrjr]

Thanks for the reply RJRJR.

 

Clarification on the redemption variant. The only way retailers were able to obtain the Wolverine #1 and Seige 3 variants was that they had to return 50 stripped covers back to marvel.

 

 

Does Marvel do these redemption variants because retailers tell them the demand for the book isn't there and they have too much overstock of these issues? This has to be one of the stranger "incentives" I've heard about. Did retailers know about these books ahead of time and do they over order on purpose to get these variants?

 

So, on one hand, Marvel has to figure they are only going to shift a few hundred of a variant of this type. But on the other, printing only a few hundred copies of a book is going to probably cost just slightly less than printing several thousand. The real question is how does Marvel handle this situation? I guess only Marvel can answer that and we can only speculate.

 

[jreezy]

This is from marvel regarding the wolverine /deadpool

 

http://marvel.com/news/comics/13520/sneak_peek_j_scott_campbell_wolverine_variant

 

Siege #3 was similar. Except the only way for retailers to get it was sending in DC covers.

 

Both of these books sell for 3k in 9.8. It is coveted books for J Scott Campbell cover collectors. Myself included.

 

 

BTW this appreciation thread has been derailed. Hopefully it will get on track again.