Captain Canuck Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Hey Lee's is $20K and Janson is asking $7000+. Kuberts stock cover is not for sale and his NYCC cover was going for $7500. Links to where these are being offered? No links, just communication with their reps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKA Rick Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Just to clarify, does the artists rep have a big say in how much an artist asks for their art because some of these prices don't seem logical. If the book does well, will these prices maintain themselves, seem reasonable or signify a decent investment? Same thing if the book tanks will people lose money if they pay some of these astronomical prices or purchase the art from the books? I think an art rep's job is to help manage an artist and maximize profitability. That doesn't always mean hiking up prices and gauging the marketplace. There's a balance of pricing for sale and sold. Just because there's a sticker asking price doesn't mean it's worth that much, and as a testament to that, the simple fact that a piece is still available for purchase usually is telling that the price might be fair, but also might be overpriced. The art rep does not make money if the art does not sell, in fact loses money through efforts without revenue. So, the art rep needs to price artwork to move. Spencer is actually a good example of an art rep who does that with his annual sales where certain artists offer discounts towards the end of the year to move merchandise (art). There's been many artists who overprice their own artwork where a rep may discuss a plan to actually sell art and be realistic with expectations by reducing pricing out of the gate. Many artists, and as collectors most have encountered this, are not great business people. They can't remember if you paid them or not. They can't remember to mail your pieces paid for and often don't know how to prioritize which causes delays and buyer frustration. Art reps coordinate smooth transactions, so that's where they earn their commission. I think some art reps ask the artist what they want for their pieces, then they mark up the prices a tad to factor in their commissions. I've seen artists who have reps sell direct to buyers, circumventing that reps efforts and commissions, all while also offering different (usually discounted) pricing. So, the answer to the question if an art rep has any say in the pricing, I'd say "Yes" they at minimum have influence and at other times have total control. As for the question about the prices and success of a book. I think the value won't be handcuffed to a print run (look at all of those "Before Watchmen" books over produced, sold to retailers now in dollar bins, as with all of the 90's Image publications and X-Men titles) but closer to aftermarket value (as back issue collectibles) and if the story itself resonates and gets the TPB treatment and becomes somewhat seen as a "classic" like the original Watchmen, Batman Hush, Identity Crisis, Civil War, Kraven's Last Hunt, Kree/Skrull War, etc. I don't think being associated with DK3 is enough to warrant 2-3x higher prices to the artist's norm. Right now I see more downside than upside as a buyer of that art in terms of what the art costs and what that same money can buy otherwise in art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 As for the question about the prices and success of a book. I think the value won't be handcuffed to a print run (look at all of those "Before Watchmen" books over produced, sold to retailers now in dollar bins, as with all of the 90's Image publications and X-Men titles) but closer to aftermarket value (as back issue collectibles) and if the story itself resonates and gets the TPB treatment and becomes somewhat seen as a "classic" like the original Watchmen, Batman Hush, Identity Crisis, Civil War, Kraven's Last Hunt, Kree/Skrull War, etc. I don't think being associated with DK3 is enough to warrant 2-3x higher prices to the artist's norm. Right now I see more downside than upside as a buyer of that art in terms of what the art costs and what that same money can buy otherwise in art. So what you are saying is wait for the bottom to drop and if it becomes a classic then you are too late. To me that sounds all like speculating and gambling. Which goes back to buying something that you like regardless of it being overpriced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Where do program books advertising a particular comic fall into all of this? Less value than a variant cover, same, more? This particular image was widely advertised in the media and numerous copies were distributed at the con and I know Spencer was asking a decent premium for it on behalf of Andy. This may be because it was drawn by Kubert, Kubert is the main DK3 artist, it is a somewhat DK3 cover, ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Baru Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I prefer Finch though his cover is over 4 times the price of this one. http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1265702 Yes it is and I assume if Finch wasn't repped by Spencer then his cover would have been a lot more affordable. I think his move to have Spencer rep him has signalled the end of the attainable for the average person Finch cover. Finch was represented by spencer for quite a while, and then decided to sell his own artwork around 2009, I had purchased several covers during the time he was with spencer. The prices were higher after he left. If they are higher now I wouldn't say it has anything to do with spencer and more to do with finch's career arc taking his prices up or finch deciding he wants more for his work. I agree. I purchased my Finch Batman page from Spencer. Only way I could get a page that I wanted. I thought the price was VERY fair. Matter of fact, I thought I got a pretty good deal on it. Spencer is very easy to deal with. 1950's war comics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I prefer Finch though his cover is over 4 times the price of this one. http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1265702 Yes it is and I assume if Finch wasn't repped by Spencer then his cover would have been a lot more affordable. I think his move to have Spencer rep him has signalled the end of the attainable for the average person Finch cover. Finch was represented by spencer for quite a while, and then decided to sell his own artwork around 2009, I had purchased several covers during the time he was with spencer. The prices were higher after he left. If they are higher now I wouldn't say it has anything to do with spencer and more to do with finch's career arc taking his prices up or finch deciding he wants more for his work. Just to clarify, does the artists rep have a big say in how much an artist asks for their art because some of these prices don't seem logical. If the book does well, will these prices maintain themselves, seem reasonable or signify a decent investment? Same thing if the book tanks will people lose money if they pay some of these astronomical prices or purchase the art from the books? From my experience, most of the time, the artists set their prices and the rep sells. Reps will give advice on the market to the client but, obviously, won't overrule the client. Finch is very aware of what he wants to ask for his artwork. I know some of Albert's guys tell him what they want for pieces....like Bruce Timm, whose artwork is very reasonable for the quality, and Jim Lee, who asks and gets giant cash for his work. Some reps exert more influence over pricing but Spencer isn't one of them. This isn't really a new phenomenon of modern artists pricing their work at a large premium over perceived market value. For at least the last 10 years several modern artists have asked prices that are the most those piece will ever sell for, inflation adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 As for the question about the prices and success of a book. I think the value won't be handcuffed to a print run (look at all of those "Before Watchmen" books over produced, sold to retailers now in dollar bins, as with all of the 90's Image publications and X-Men titles) but closer to aftermarket value (as back issue collectibles) and if the story itself resonates and gets the TPB treatment and becomes somewhat seen as a "classic" like the original Watchmen, Batman Hush, Identity Crisis, Civil War, Kraven's Last Hunt, Kree/Skrull War, etc. I don't think being associated with DK3 is enough to warrant 2-3x higher prices to the artist's norm. Right now I see more downside than upside as a buyer of that art in terms of what the art costs and what that same money can buy otherwise in art. So what you are saying is wait for the bottom to drop and if it becomes a classic then you are too late. To me that sounds all like speculating and gambling. Which goes back to buying something that you like regardless of it being overpriced. Buying modern artwork has become a gigantic gamble across the board over the last decade. Lots of artists wanting "Back to the Future 2 money" (something that's still a good price 25 years into the future) for anything remotely key or possibly key or potentially ever important in comics continuity. Some collectors have convinced themselves and rationalized the prices and bit the bullet. A lot of collectors have done this actually. That's only raised the stakes. For example's sake: 10 years ago it was a $500 cover being sold for $2000. Just when the $2,000 became accepted, it was $5,000. Now, with certain books, I've seen guys whose cover art won't crack $2k on their best day, asking $50,000 for a piece of cover art...with a straight face. A book like this with 389 variant covers, it's more than a giant gamble at these numbers. It's entirely foolish for anyone who ever wants to get their money back or ever break even. In comics, nostalgia is king.....2 variant covers is enough to dilute the nostalgia to the point that people maybe remember the main cover and forget the variants. What do you think is going to happen when there is a different variant cover printed for every man, woman, and child in in the contiguous US. (Hawaii and Alaska are on their own)? There are too many covers, with asking prices beyond all reason. Here's a rule of thumb. Think 5 years from now. You bought a few of these and are thinking of selling one of them. If you've got to explain in great detail to a potential buyer exactly what it is you are selling and what it's from, if it's not instantly recognizable and remembered, you aren't getting your substantial investment back. Just sayin'. It's like a very expensive lotto ticket...and the grand prize is getting your purchase price back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKA Rick Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 So what you are saying is wait for the bottom to drop and if it becomes a classic then you are too late. To me that sounds all like speculating and gambling. Which goes back to buying something that you like regardless of it being overpriced. Yeah... 1) I think the legacy of the original DK1 : Dark Knight Returns (1986) series is so strong, any follow-up pales in comparison and lackluster efforts sort of tarnish the original as an ill attempt to exploit and highlights just how bad the sequels are, as the case with DK2 : Dark Knight Strikes Again (2001-02), so with Frank Miller's diminished involvement (writing not illustrating) in DK3 : Dark Knight - The Master Race (2015), the odds are it's probably going to be a lackluster release. So, I'd be from the school of being better safe than sorry if buying any DK3 art as an investment believing that it's priced today on tomorrow's potential and that potential won't be realized, so it's better to abstain or wait than buy during potential market highs. 2) Yes, when buying any collectible whether as an investor or as a collector (and we all have limited funds looking for the best bang for our buck buying power), it's gambling through the odds making of making educated decisions somewhat influenced by historical precedent and trends. 3) You're right in that "buy what you like" and don't chase the value. If you buy what you like and pay "what it's worth to you" then you're really never or not overpaying to the value of the piece in your eyes and what it takes to acquire it. So, circling back to purchasing DK3 artwork, if you're buying a piece because you love the comic, character, artist and rendering, then go for it at any price within your comfort zone and you can't go wrong if you're happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) Where do the OA for program books advertising a particular comic fall into all of this? Less value than a variant cover, same, more? Are they considered a variant cover? This particular image was widely advertised in the media and numerous copies were distributed at the con and I know Spencer was asking a decent premium for it on behalf of Andy. Is this because it was drawn by Kubert, Kubert is the main DK3 artist, it is a somewhat DK3 cover, ...? I also know DC owns the rights to this art and may use it for something else at some point. What is everyone's thoughts on this question? Edited October 17, 2015 by Captain Canuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eewwnuk Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The NYCc cover is amongst the best of these dk3 images. Not sure how it being a program cover factors into the price but from aesthetics it's top 5 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The NYCc cover is amongst the best of these dk3 images. Not sure how it being a program cover factors into the price but from aesthetics it's top 5 for me. I like it better than the stock DK3 cover, they should have used this one instead for issue 1. I do hope they use it for something else, I agree it's one of the best covers aesthetically, but I am curious how it being a program cover factors into the price of the OA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Where do the OA for program books advertising a particular comic fall into all of this? Less value than a variant cover, same, more? Are they considered a variant cover? This particular image was widely advertised in the media and numerous copies were distributed at the con and I know Spencer was asking a decent premium for it on behalf of Andy. Is this because it was drawn by Kubert, Kubert is the main DK3 artist, it is a somewhat DK3 cover, ...? I also know DC owns the rights to this art and may use it for something else at some point. What is everyone's thoughts on this question? While I like the image, I can't justify the cost for a silhouette. Its also not a DK book. I buy art for me and not for investment. Years go by and I decide to move something, I would be happy to break even. If you're buying a silhouette for investment, the best you can hope for on this would be that they reuse it for a trade down the road. Isn't it on par with what Miller did on other Dark Knight books, DKR, DKR 3 covers were a silouhette, DKR 10th anniversary was a silouhette. Miller favours expressing batman in that manner. I assume that's why the DK3 stock cover is a silouhette. Personally I find this one has a lot more to it than that one. As well, I think it is more about the image than how it was created. I am pretty sure the DKR and DKR 10th anniversary silouhette covers are worth a lot, more so the DKR cover because of its significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKA Rick Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 What is everyone's thoughts on this question? I think the NYCC program cover definitely has less prestige than if the same image were used for a DK3 comic book cover, but it is artwork and one of a kind, so it may not impact the pricing or value as much. What ends up happening is the program cover becomes less recognizable since it's a limited regional release, so won't be world renown as a published comic book cover would be. I remember when Jim Lee did a Batman Hush supplemental story published in Wizard Magazine, not in the Batman title and those pages seemed to sell okay, but weren't as highly recognized as the Batman pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) DC is using Kuberts NYCC program cover for something else, coasters at DC Entertainment Talent Party. I apologize for the size of the photo, can't seem to reduce its size. Edited October 17, 2015 by Captain Canuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffman Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 This is one of those questions that really should be answered with "buy it only if you like it" and do not factor in any future resell possibilities since there is no way to predict how the price fluctuation will be on this series of covers. Too many variants, the material hasn't been released yet to gauge how good it will be, and of course what cover will end up standing out after the dust has settled. As far as the prices set on the art from artists and art reps, a majority of the prices are guided by what the artist would like to generate from the work and usually balanced with the advice from their rep on what the market can bear. I believe artists still get final word on how they want the piece priced, like Romita Jr does with Spencer. I was looking at an interior from his Captain America run and was told (in my opinion) a high price for a new interior page and was informed Romita Jr didn't care if the pages sold so that is what he wanted for the piece. Of course that piece is no longer available, so for someone else the piece was not high priced. That always makes me wonder if enough people keep running out there putting down these high $$ figures for the work then doesn't that set what the price will be for these modern art pieces? I know, I know, before anyone jumps on it, that that is not true FMV, but that always get's me that it seems like we have to wait for someone to pay the fool prices of $2k and then wait for them to throw it in an auction and hope that it will go for the $500 we think it should. We always have to wait for someone else to pull that trigger so we may reap the reward later if we only buy on FMV. What also doesn't help these prices on the DK III covers is the amount of people coming at the artist wanting it. It's now causing the "well what would you offer for it" scenarios. I don't know about you, but if I had 4 people asking me about a piece I own, I would be hard to just set a price and I would just say submit your offer and I'll consider it. I was speaking with Mark Brooks on his recent cover for Spider-Gwen and he stated that the cover was sold as soon as it was announced he was doing it. He was offered more money than he had ever before for a cover all before he put pencil to paper. With that kind of quickness and cash being offered it certainly makes it difficult to compete with securing a new modern piece that you would like to own at what most of us would consider a fair price. Of course these prices being set on the covers could end up hurting the selling of the pieces in the long run since everyone is going to want big money right out the gate. If the first issue lands with a resounding thud then these covers might even be harder to move at these price points. As someone once told me, there's always plenty of other art out there that you can spend your money on and I couldn't agree more. Only go for these if you just absolutely love the homage the artist is doing because you are just gambling if you want to get more money out of these later and of course if you have the $$ to spend on these as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffman Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I'm of the same opinion. Hate the "make an offer" scenarios. I psych myself out way too much on those to even bother. Thankfully most people will kind of give you a starting point or even a range of consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I prefer Finch though his cover is over 4 times the price of this one. http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1265702 Yes it is and I assume if Finch wasn't repped by Spencer then his cover would have been a lot more affordable. I think his move to have Spencer rep him has signalled the end of the attainable for the average person Finch cover. I actually didn't realize Finch had hooked up with Spencer again until recently, your post made me email him and ask him for a price list. He went through them with me and it looks like most of the pages and covers were actually cheaper now than when I saw them at conventions the last few years. I asked him the story with the DKIII cover and its price and it turns out that, of all the work David's done over the years, this is the his most favorite piece. It's one he wouldn't be heartbroken to keep unless it's for money that would leave him no regrets. All his other prices seemed to be lower, some by a lot. So I don't think we should measure Finch cover prices based on the one piece he puts above all others, given that he's actually asking less for several covers and nice interiors than he had been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I have to admit Finch's cover is awesome and I understand his standpoint if you throw enough money then he is willing to part with it and I can respect that. Here is the final version of his cover. Finch colors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comix4fun Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 That is the one cover (that's not digitally created) that's standing out to me. Pretty awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canuck Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 That is the one cover (that's not digitally created) that's standing out to me. Pretty awesome. To me as well, and would stand alone as a great cover regardless of whether DK3 does well or not. I just personally can't justify paying the high asking price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
