Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[Petey's Wheatcake]

 

We may have to agree to disagree on the whole first appearance thing, because I never would have invested hundreds of dollars in a pre-order of a third appearance, and I think the gap between first and second appearances was usually much wider than what you are suggesting.

 

Yes, back in the day books like Power Man and Iron Fist #66, or even Spectacular Spidey #116 sold well, but at nowhere near the levels of an Iron Fist #14. Firsts were still the most important thing in comics at the time. Heck, the first Silver Age Penguin and Catwoman were about to catch fire in the summer of 1992.

 

Those weren't first appearances. They were just the earliest available books that could easily be collected. "First Silver Age" was, of course, a marketing ploy more than anything else.

 

But that was exactly my point. First appearances were the most desired and collected comics on the market. Why else would a marketing ploy have been created to capitalize on that fact? Even in 1992, people were trying to manufacture first appearance hype to sell books.

 

You are absolutely correct when you point out how the second and third appearances of certain characters sold well, and the gap was often not as wide as it is today, but it was still wide enough to motivate me to focus my financial resources on first appearances of potentially popular characters, as opposed to their second or third.

 

I've wasted plenty of internet discussing my own personal spending habits at the time for two reasons.

 

1. Because I like to talk about myself.

 

2. Because I'm attempting to illustrate why I personally don't believe the circulation numbers you keep referring to mean what you think they mean. #363 was a great issue for stores and Venom collectors. It wasn't an obvious wall book though. Venom was Raxton hot at the time*, so I suppose one could gamble on the potential of a consistent back issue seller at shows, but investing in cases of this book? There were better opportunities out there.

 

Even movie speculation was alive and well. Maybe collecting habits weren't as different 23 years ago as we sometimes think?

 

I was joking with this particular statement, and I'd say that I regret accidentally derailing the discussion, but you brought up some excellent points regarding hot artists, among other things. In this instance, a mistake turned out to be a good thing(Not unlike my conception, from what I've been told).

 

However, there are still vestiges of the old ways evident in today's hot books:

 

Catwoman #51, #70, #74 and ASM #601 are only a few examples of Hughes and Campbell covers that sell for the art.

 

Batman Adventures #28, Annual #1, Harley and Ivy #1-3, and even Scooby-Doo Team-Up #12 show how some collectors continue to seek out the 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes the 737th appearances of certain characters.

 

Overall though, I agree that the market has definitely changed in many ways.

 

 

* I hesitate to even dip a toe into this part of the discussion, but here goes anyway:

 

Venom was already extremely popular by this point. He wasn't Wolvie and the Punisher yet, but he was clearly the new "It Boy" of the day. He had his own action figure in 1992. He was also one of the four(?) non-X characters to receive a deluxe talking figure(Hulk, Spidey, Punisher and Venom, right?). And this was prior to the release of ASM #361.

 

Marvel obviously knew what they had. If you think about it, Boba Fett didn't need much screen time to rival Vader as a popular villain. I actually think that his relatively few appearances to this point helped cultivate his popularity.

 

In the end though, was he popular enough to motivate many investors/collectors to purchase multiple copies of the first appearance of his progeny? I say thee yea.

 

[Gatsby77]

When memories conflict with data, which has to go?

 

Sure. I got the cover prices of ASM 359+360 wrong. Didn't feel the need to note that because it's obvious. Duh.

 

But that mistake doesn't invalidate my opinions on or experience of the time period (i.e., credibility, as one who's been in this game for 25+ years) any more than your one-time repeated insistence that Superman 75 was released on Nov. 20 -- even after presented with incontrovertible proof to the contrary -- damages your credibility on all things Death/Return of Superman.

 

It doesn't.

 

I didn't pre-order 361. But my teacher did, and gave me a week's heads-up. And independently, my LCS had vastly upped their orders, yet still instituted "1 per customer" the day of release.

 

And I bought my (4) copies off the shelf week 1 as an INVESTMENT, but not to FLIP. These were the first ASM dupes I bought, having started buying (unfortunately) with # 326. The goal was to keep the books for 20+ years (which, incidentally, I did). Not everyone, apparently, had the same mindset as you.

 

 

Also, while the relative print run data is interesting, I don't buy the argument that "instant 2nd printing" equates to not heavily speculated upon.

 

Plenty of books from 1990-92 were heavily printed (& speculated upon), went to near-instant second printings, and _still_ saw their first prints go up in value quickly. Some examples:

 

Spider-Man 1

Man of Steel 1

FF 347

Hulk 377

Ghost Rider 5

Robin 1

Spectacular 189

Silver Surfer 50

Man of Steel 18

Superman 75

 

_None_ of these books was a surprise for those watching the market.

 

Again, the surprises (at least in Philly at the time) were books like Barbie 1, Ren & Stimpy 1, Vampirella 1, Alpha Flight 106 -- I don't know _anyone_ who called those ahead of time. Show me someone who did & I'll be impressed.

 

But ASM 361? Yeah -- it had potential.

[B-Smooth]

What'd I miss?

[the blob]

Collectors who bought 5 to 10 copies of ASM 361 had really no venues to resell that book in such a small time frame (2-3 months) Dealers were not buying this book from some guy off the street. They didn't have to.

 

This is not true.

 

You keep on saying this, and maybe where you lived (California I assume), there were venues to sell them, but I can tell you, selling to shops in NYC was a nightmare and there was actually competition among shops here and they pretty much were all offering jack squat for anything and everything because they could. Plenty of product to go around, plenty of people who worked at DC and Marvel who took home tons of free stuff and then re-sell it to the shops for very little or credit. My friend who owned the shop would laugh about it because he knew people had nowhere to go and most of the time he could offer almost nothing. Come to think of it, he was an a-hole! But him getting stuff really cheap meant I did too. Ditto for one-shop towns in the burbs where they knew there was no competition for buying collections.

 

So, maybe California was a collector's paradise with shops paying guide for hot books, but that was not how it was in many other places. I'm sure all the dealers here who had shops then paid great prices, of course, because they're all great guys.

[mrwoogieman]

I recall going to local hotel cons on Long Island back in the early 90s, and there was brisk trade in all the hot books being sold at high prices, and there was buying across both sides of the tables at very nice prices. I guess some people went to their local comic shops, but my friends and I were wheeling and dealing in person at a few different venues.

 

 

I don't recall what ASM 361 was doing, but you could find buyers for all kinds of recent back issues at these shows. I personally sold stuff like Star Wars: Dark Empire runs and all of the pre-Unity Valiants to dealers for excellent prices. I started buying Valiant around Magnus issue 9 hitting the stands so it wasn't yet impossible to find the back issues.

 

I remember being at the Constantino Brumidi Lodge in Deer Park, NY and sold a guy a Magnus 0 with coupon for $100! Around 1992-3 maybe.

 

 

Blob, you ever go to these shows? They used to put them on in RVC too.

 

 

 

[FormerReader]

Amazing Spiderman #361, wasn't that book heavily speculated on?

[RockMyAmadeus]

When memories conflict with data, which has to go?

 

Sure. I got the cover prices of ASM 359+360 wrong. Didn't feel the need to note that because it's obvious. Duh.

 

Noting it is a matter of courtesy and acknowledgement, more than anything.

 

Why does it matter? Couple of reasons. The specific detail isn't important...what is important is that you made a key point about the print run (that it was "depressed" because of the higher new cost, which would be a fair point to make, if true) that was based on something that wasn't accurate, but those who didn't take the time to research it (i.e., most of the people reading this) might have easily accepted at face value, and carried that bad information forward.

 

Facts always matter. Anyone having a serious discussion about these things has to as accurate as possible, and certainly shouldn't be giving other people a hard time because they insist on accuracy, especially when such information is literally fact-checkable with a few Google clicks.

 

It's lazy, and tells anyone who is paying attention that the details of the conversation don't really matter, it's just arguing to argue.

 

But also it's because, when I have these types of discussions, I don't sit back and shoot from the hip, just spouting off my memories and impressions (not saying that anyone else is, either; if they are, that's for others to decide for themselves.) I physically went to find that issue of Previews, looking through several boxes, to confirm, not just for everyone else, but also for myself, the claim that Peter G made that "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue."

 

There wasn't. Previews showed half the cover, in B&W (to be fair, it was ALL B&W in those days), and that was it. They didn't even have the name "Carnage" yet. No spotlight, no "gem of the month", no full page ad like Cage #1 and MCP #100, among others.

 

(I have several boxes of Previews for research purposes, for whatever level of dedication to comics research that demonstrates.)

 

So, Peter G's recollections don't look like they stand up to scrutiny, but for that, he says I provided "no evidence", with pages of it still right here all over this thread, and then made it personal. And, for the umpteen millionth time, I am told "you always think you're right" in this conversation...which is always true of everyone...when I went out and did the actual legwork and research, which no one else did, with the exception of Valiantman.

 

So, yes, if I have an expectation that the person who does the research to support his/her case should be the one whose conclusions carry the most weight, I don't think that's a very unreasonable expectation to have.

 

Am I tooting my own horn? Not at all. Doing the legwork and research to get at the truth of a matter is what drives me, because then everyone involved is enriched, and comes away from the discussion knowing more than when they started.

 

But, it does get a bit frustrating when people who aren't willing to do the research challenge those who do it, who don't read what others say (is anyone reading this right now...?), then respond according to how they see still others reacting to what is said, rather than seeing for themselves what is actually said, and then it takes some serious drawing out to just get someone to acknowledge they made a mistake that has direct bearing on the point they're making.

 

I admit I'm wrong, when I make a mistake. I say "oops. Sorry about that, my mistake, thanks for the correction" (most of the time...I'm still human), and then move on, which is why it never registers. But pride is a person_without_enough_empathy, and no one likes to be corrected, so there it goes. What the "you never admit you're wrong" crowd really means is "you don't agree with ME. How dare you."

 

Does any of this matter? In the grand scheme of things, not really. Is it going to change anyone, including me? Probably not. But, it's important to keep the record straight, if, for no other reason, so that people don't walk around carrying bad information, and making bad decisions based on that bad information, without having been given the chance to have correct information.

 

But that mistake doesn't invalidate my opinions on or experience of the time period (i.e., credibility, as one who's been in this game for 25+ years) any more than your one-time repeated insistence that Superman 75 was released on Nov. 20 -- even after presented with incontrovertible proof to the contrary -- damages your credibility on all things Death/Return of Superman.

 

I'm sorry, but that's not only not accurate, those couldn't possibly be more different circumstances that you're trying to compare.

 

1. It's not my "one-time" repeated insistence. I stand by it to this very day, because I know when comic books were released on the West Coast in November of 1992: on Friday. That book appeared on the shelves of comic book stores across California on Nov 20th, 1992. Whether it appeared on Wednesday, Nov 18th in New York doesn't alter that fact. Not only that, I personally delivered 400 of them to various stores that had ordered them, that day, Friday, across the SF East Bay area.

 

2. As others have reported, the "new comics day" varied across the country, with some reporting Wednesday, and others reporting Friday (which it was on the West Coast), so no, it's not "incontrovertible proof", and never has been.

 

The result of that conversation was that everyone came to the correct conclusion that books were released at that time on different days of the week, depending on region/location/distribution. Which means that, ANY day between Nov 17 (which was DC's official street date) and Nov 20 was accurate.

 

This needs to be said: there's a substantial and significant different between a genuine disagreement based on conflicting data (Nov 18th vs Nov 20th) and laziness about double checking the cover price to ASM #359 and #360.

 

They're simply not comparable, as a means of discussing credibility. One is easily fact-checked, the other was a disagreement based on conflicting information.

 

By the way....that didn't even take into account the newsstand distribution which was usually 2-3 weeks LATER.

 

So...if you're going to make an issue out of it, you ought to pick an issue where there was actual incontrovertible proof of error, rather than a situation that depended on mitigating circumstances.

 

It doesn't.

 

I didn't pre-order 361. But my teacher did, and gave me a week's heads-up. And independently, my LCS had vastly upped their orders, yet still instituted "1 per customer" the day of release.

 

I'll ask again, because I believe I asked before, and didn't get an answer: how did your teacher order, when, and why? And, what does "vastly upped" mean? Double? Triple? We know Cap City had orders of about 20% more on #361 than #360.

 

Without those details, the anecdotes don't help.

 

And I bought my (4) copies off the shelf week 1 as an INVESTMENT, but not to FLIP. These were the first ASM dupes I bought, having started buying (unfortunately) with # 326. The goal was to keep the books for 20+ years (which, incidentally, I did). Not everyone, apparently, had the same mindset as you.

 

Again: you're arguing the exception, as if it were the rule.

 

I don't doubt you, and I don't disbelieve you, nor am I referring to MY "mindset." My point, as I have stated multiple times, is that the majority of people who bought multiple copies of new books, then as now, did so to flip. Because ASM #361 took everyone by surprise...which it did...the demand was such that the book, unlike most books of that era, went up quite substantially in price in a very short time.

 

Are there people who bought them for long term investment? Of course! It would be foolish to think otherwise. But, the majority of people buying multiple copies of brand new books were going to tend to sell them, as the demand (and price) got higher, which would result in greater distribution than otherwise...which is why, as Hamlet said, people had 30 copies of Wolverine #50, but only 3 copies of ASM #361, when the smoke cleared.

 

I bought multiple copies of X-Force #1. 80 of them, to be exact. I bought them because I thought it would be a "good investment." I didn't know any better. That's part of the reason I'm so vociferous about these things NOW...because I had to learn hard lessons.

 

But, if X-Force #1 had, for some bizarre reason, actually been underordered (it was not, despite the second printing), and it had gone to $10-$15-$20 within a couple of months of release, I would have sold/traded at least a good chunk of them, as would everyone else who was doing the same thing.

 

Also, while the relative print run data is interesting, I don't buy the argument that "instant 2nd printing" equates to not heavily speculated upon.

 

That's not what I said. What I said was this: "Books that go into immediate reprintings didn't have enough copies printed in the first place to satisfy demand." and "Books that sell out quickly enough to have an immediate second printing aren't hoarded....they are distributed far and wide."

 

And, there IS a difference between a book that has a second printing because it has been heavily speculated (Spiderman #1) and one that simply sells out (like ASM #361.)

 

Again: you can't use "hoarded" and "speculated" interchangeably.

 

The former means that people gather them up and held them.

 

The latter simply means they thought they would be worth something higher than acquisition cost at some point.

 

And, according to the data we have, ASM #361 wasn't speculated in much greater numbers (say, more than a 20% bump) than other issues of the day.

 

#358 was speculated on in far higher numbers, for example, because of the gatefold cover (which turned out to be quite passé, but was rather novel at the time.) So, by the way, was #363.

 

Also...there is a difference between speculating on a book by placing an order for it (which affects the print run) and speculating on a book by buying it on the shelf (which doesn't affect the print run.)

 

ASM #361 wasn't speculated the first way much more than most other issues of ASM, and certainly wasn't speculated the second way, because, as you note, it was "1 per customer"...in other words, there wasn't really a CHANCE to speculate on this book after it was placed on sale; it was already a hit. Sure, there was certainly some degree of "on the shelf speculation" happening, but it wasn't really all THAT speculative, when everyone's grabbing a copy in front of you.

 

Plenty of books from 1990-92 were heavily printed (& speculated upon), went to near-instant second printings, and _still_ saw their first prints go up in value quickly. Some examples:

 

Spider-Man 1

 

Not true. Spiderman #1 did not go up in value quickly, or at all. The only books that had value were the bagged copies. If someone paid more than $5 for a regular copy, he would have paid more than he could have, from just about anyone.

 

Having an immediate second printing does NOT *necessarily* mean that a book is going to be valuable...what it means is that it was underordered, and sold out at the distribution level.

 

Man of Steel 1

 

Man of Steel #1 didn't have a second printing, and because it was the highest ordered book of the year, neither needed one, nor did it ever "go up in value very quickly" (or at all.)

 

FF 347

 

Partially true. Though CC order numbers for FF #347 were up significantly over the immediately preceding issues (avg about 31-32k copies), at 47,400, it was still less than New Mutants #96 (55,500) X-Factor #61 (59,600) and a little more than half of X-Men #271 (at 87,000.)

 

And...it featured art by then still very popular Art Adams, and teamed the hottest characters in comics at the time: Ghost Rider, Wolverine, and Spidey.

 

Even with all of that, it never managed to break the $10 barrier on a national scale (if at all), or for any length of time.

 

In the case of several of the books you list here, many of them weren't "heavily printed", relative to the time period. This was one of them. About average numbers. Good for FF...not all that special, though.

 

Hulk 377

 

Hulk #377 was advertised as having a "neon cover." It did not. It had an INTERESTING cover, but it was advertised as having a special gimmick. Still, CC orders for the book, while double the usual Hulk numbers, were still only 58,600 copies...which was less than New Mutants #97 (64,400), and X-Men #272 (93,100), and Hulk was getting to be quite the hot book (Keown) at that time.

 

Not "heavily printed."

 

Ghost Rider 5

 

This was, again, a book that took everyone by surprise...a bit. Orders for the title weren't all that hot early on, and #4 was a famously "under distributed" issue (tough Cap City numbers for #2 and #3 are a bit lower.)

 

But #5 featured...you guessed it...the Punisher, who was enjoying his reign as the hottest character in comics. Still...Cap City orders for #5 were only 52,800, just about 20% more than for #4 at 44,000.

 

As well, Ghost Rider #1 wasn't second printed until issue #5 came out, both on sale in July of 1990. I remember seeing a huge stack of #5s at Comics and Comix on Telegraph in Berkley. Those were the days.

 

Anyhoo...not heavily printed, especially coming out the same month as Spiderman #2, which had Cap City orders of 168,600...or more than three times that of GR #5.

 

Robin 1

 

I've already addressed Robin #1. It turned out to be the #1 selling DC of the year (1990), and also took everyone by surprise. It belongs in the same category as ASM #361. Even still, the print run was a bit more than X-Men #272, and a little more than [/b]half the best selling issue of the month, Spiderman #6.

 

Batman #457 (also second printed), was the lead-up to this issue, and people were ready to feel frisky about Batman again...plus, Neal Adams poster (and Neal wasn't doing any DC work in those days.)

 

Gimmicks galore.

 

But it is about as close to the ASM #361 situation as your list gets. It was a legit $20 book by the end of December (came out in November.)

 

Something to keep in mind: DC books weren't speculated to anywhere near the degree that Marvel books were, with the possible exception of Batman books.

 

Spectacular 189

 

The first of the four hologram covers that month (and it was SUPPOSED to be a FULL hologram cover, a la Ultraverse the next year), and the lowest ordered (85,100.) It was the only one of the four that had ANY back issue value, and again...$10 is probably where it maxed out.

 

Gimmicks all the way. They sold well, but they weren't necessarily printed in great amounts, or, if they were, had no subsequent value.

 

Silver Surfer 50

 

As I recall (and this might be true of a couple of the books on this list), the second printing of this book did not come out until sometime during Infinity Gauntlet. Regardless, it's another gimmick, and gimmicks ruled the day. There are no Cap City numbers for this book, so we don't have a clear idea of print run, but Silver Surfer orders were in the toilet until issue #49...29k, 30k, 33k...so #50's numbers wouldn't be in the "heavily printed" category.

 

Gimmicks that looked great....like this one...did very well when they went on sale.

 

Man of Steel 18

 

Again, not true. This book never held any substantial value as a back issue, even at the height of the Superman #75 craze. It *might* have been as high as $10? And, none of these books were "instantly second printed." The first "second printing" of this story was Superman #75. As well, the order numbers for MOS #18 vs. Superman #75 look like this:

 

MOS #18 - 26,350

 

Superman #75 - 281,400 (and those are just the Cap City orders for the $2.50 Collector's Bagged edition. The numbers for the regular edition aren't there, but the book sold 4 million or so first printings.)

 

As strange as it may sound to some, people weren't after "Doomsday"...they wanted the "issue where Superman dies." As such, yes, there was collateral demand for the entire storyline, and yes, they were all reprinted fairly quickly...but the focus was entirely on Superman #75.

 

Superman 75

 

This is the only legitimate inclusion in this list, the grand-daddy of all the "instant sellout, massive demand, went up in value very quickly" issues that have come out.

 

_None_ of these books was a surprise for those watching the market.

 

That's because _Half_ of them don't belong on this list. Hard to be surprised by that which isn't surprising.

 

 

Again, the surprises (at least in Philly at the time) were books like Barbie 1, Ren & Stimpy 1, Vampirella 1, Alpha Flight 106 -- I don't know _anyone_ who called those ahead of time. Show me someone who did & I'll be impressed.

 

You won't believe me, because it's an anecdote, but people in the Bay Area were talking about Alpha Flight #106 before it came out as a potentially hot book.

 

I don't recall Barbie #1 being all that hot a book. Vengeance of Vampirella #1, yes, definitely took people by surprise, as did Lady Death #1.

 

But ASM 361? Yeah -- it had potential.

 

Again....not according to the order numbers, or the rankings at Diamond, or the advertising material, or....

 

(Congrats to anyone who made it this far!)

[RockMyAmadeus]

Amazing Spiderman #361, wasn't that book heavily speculated on?

 

No.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Collectors who bought 5 to 10 copies of ASM 361 had really no venues to resell that book in such a small time frame (2-3 months) Dealers were not buying this book from some guy off the street. They didn't have to.

 

This is not true.

 

You keep on saying this, and maybe where you lived (California I assume), there were venues to sell them, but I can tell you, selling to shops in NYC was a nightmare and there was actually competition among shops here and they pretty much were all offering jack squat for anything and everything because they could. Plenty of product to go around, plenty of people who worked at DC and Marvel who took home tons of free stuff and then re-sell it to the shops for very little or credit. My friend who owned the shop would laugh about it because he knew people had nowhere to go and most of the time he could offer almost nothing. Come to think of it, he was an a-hole! But him getting stuff really cheap meant I did too. Ditto for one-shop towns in the burbs where they knew there was no competition for buying collections.

 

So, maybe California was a collector's paradise with shops paying guide for hot books, but that was not how it was in many other places. I'm sure all the dealers here who had shops then paid great prices, of course, because they're all great guys.

 

I don't doubt what you're saying, but do you see the implications of it: there would be no reason to buy multiple copies if there wasn't some mechanism in place to be able to benefit from it.

 

In other words, if there wasn't some way to sell/trade them for more than you paid, no one would do it.

 

And clearly, people did it.

 

In my case, the only avenue I had open was to trade them, so that's what I did. No one was paying Guide, but if you could get $12 in trade credit for a book you bought for $1.13? That wasn't too bad.

[Gatsby77]

When memories conflict with data, which has to go?

 

Sure. I got the cover prices of ASM 359+360 wrong. Didn't feel the need to note that because it's obvious. Duh.

 

Noting it is a matter of courtesy and acknowledgement, more than anything.

 

Why does it matter? Couple of reasons. The specific detail isn't important...what is important is that you made a key point about the print run (that it was "depressed" because of the higher new cost, which would be a fair point to make, if true) that was based on something that wasn't accurate, but those who didn't take the time to research it (i.e., most of the people reading this) might have easily accepted at face value, and carried that bad information forward.

 

Facts always matter. Anyone having a serious discussion about these things has to as accurate as possible, and certainly shouldn't be giving other people a hard time because they insist on accuracy, especially when such information is literally fact-checkable with a few Google clicks.

 

It's lazy, and tells anyone who is paying attention that the details of the conversation don't really matter, it's just arguing to argue.

 

But also it's because, when I have these types of discussions, I don't sit back and shoot from the hip, just spouting off my memories and impressions (not saying that anyone else is, either; if they are, that's for others to decide for themselves.) I physically went to find that issue of Previews, looking through several boxes, to confirm, not just for everyone else, but also for myself, the claim that Peter G made that "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue."

 

There wasn't. Previews showed half the cover, in B&W (to be fair, it was ALL B&W in those days), and that was it. They didn't even have the name "Carnage" yet. No spotlight, no "gem of the month", no full page ad like Cage #1 and MCP #100, among others.

 

(I have several boxes of Previews for research purposes, for whatever level of dedication to comics research that demonstrates.)

 

So, Peter G's recollections don't look like they stand up to scrutiny, but for that, he says I provided "no evidence", with pages of it still right here all over this thread, and then made it personal. And, for the umpteen millionth time, I am told "you always think you're right" in this conversation...which is always true of everyone...when I went out and did the actual legwork and research, which no one else did, with the exception of Valiantman.

 

So, yes, if I have an expectation that the person who does the research to support his/her case should be the one whose conclusions carry the most weight, I don't think that's a very unreasonable expectation to have.

 

Am I tooting my own horn? Not at all. Doing the legwork and research to get at the truth of a matter is what drives me, because then everyone involved is enriched, and comes away from the discussion knowing more than when they started.

 

But, it does get a bit frustrating when people who aren't willing to do the research challenge those who do it, who don't read what others say (is anyone reading this right now...?), then respond according to how they see still others reacting to what is said, rather than seeing for themselves what is actually said, and then it takes some serious drawing out to just get someone to acknowledge they made a mistake that has direct bearing on the point they're making.

 

I admit I'm wrong, when I make a mistake. I say "oops. Sorry about that, my mistake, thanks for the correction" (most of the time...I'm still human), and then move on, which is why it never registers. But pride is a person_without_enough_empathy, and no one likes to be corrected, so there it goes. What the "you never admit you're wrong" crowd really means is "you don't agree with ME. How dare you."

 

Does any of this matter? In the grand scheme of things, not really. Is it going to change anyone, including me? Probably not. But, it's important to keep the record straight, if, for no other reason, so that people don't walk around carrying bad information, and making bad decisions based on that bad information, without having been given the chance to have correct information.

 

But that mistake doesn't invalidate my opinions on or experience of the time period (i.e., credibility, as one who's been in this game for 25+ years) any more than your one-time repeated insistence that Superman 75 was released on Nov. 20 -- even after presented with incontrovertible proof to the contrary -- damages your credibility on all things Death/Return of Superman.

 

I'm sorry, but that's not only not accurate, those couldn't possibly be more different circumstances that you're trying to compare.

 

1. It's not my "one-time" repeated insistence. I stand by it to this very day, because I know when comic books were released on the West Coast in November of 1992: on Friday. That book appeared on the shelves of comic book stores across California on Nov 20th, 1992. Whether it appeared on Wednesday, Nov 18th in New York doesn't alter that fact. Not only that, I personally delivered 400 of them to various stores that had ordered them, that day, Friday, across the SF East Bay area.

 

2. As others have reported, the "new comics day" varied across the country, with some reporting Wednesday, and others reporting Friday (which it was on the West Coast), so no, it's not "incontrovertible proof", and never has been.

 

The result of that conversation was that everyone came to the correct conclusion that books were released at that time on different days of the week, depending on region/location/distribution. Which means that, ANY day between Nov 17 (which was DC's official street date) and Nov 20 was accurate.

 

This needs to be said: there's a substantial and significant different between a genuine disagreement based on conflicting data (Nov 18th vs Nov 20th) and laziness about double checking the cover price to ASM #359 and #360.

 

They're simply not comparable, as a means of discussing credibility. One is easily fact-checked, the other was a disagreement based on conflicting information.

 

By the way....that didn't even take into account the newsstand distribution which was usually 2-3 weeks LATER.

 

So...if you're going to make an issue out of it, you ought to pick an issue where there was actual incontrovertible proof of error, rather than a situation that depended on mitigating circumstances.

 

It doesn't.

 

I didn't pre-order 361. But my teacher did, and gave me a week's heads-up. And independently, my LCS had vastly upped their orders, yet still instituted "1 per customer" the day of release.

 

I'll ask again, because I believe I asked before, and didn't get an answer: how did your teacher order, when, and why? And, what does "vastly upped" mean? Double? Triple? We know Cap City had orders of about 20% more on #361 than #360.

 

Without those details, the anecdotes don't help.

 

And I bought my (4) copies off the shelf week 1 as an INVESTMENT, but not to FLIP. These were the first ASM dupes I bought, having started buying (unfortunately) with # 326. The goal was to keep the books for 20+ years (which, incidentally, I did). Not everyone, apparently, had the same mindset as you.

 

Again: you're arguing the exception, as if it were the rule.

 

I don't doubt you, and I don't disbelieve you, nor am I referring to MY "mindset." My point, as I have stated multiple times, is that the majority of people who bought multiple copies of new books, then as now, did so to flip. Because ASM #361 took everyone by surprise...which it did...the demand was such that the book, unlike most books of that era, went up quite substantially in price in a very short time.

 

Are there people who bought them for long term investment? Of course! It would be foolish to think otherwise. But, the majority of people buying multiple copies of brand new books were going to tend to sell them, as the demand (and price) got higher, which would result in greater distribution than otherwise...which is why, as Hamlet said, people had 30 copies of Wolverine #50, but only 3 copies of ASM #361, when the smoke cleared.

 

I bought multiple copies of X-Force #1. 80 of them, to be exact. I bought them because I thought it would be a "good investment." I didn't know any better. That's part of the reason I'm so vociferous about these things NOW...because I had to learn hard lessons.

 

But, if X-Force #1 had, for some bizarre reason, actually been underordered (it was not, despite the second printing), and it had gone to $10-$15-$20 within a couple of months of release, I would have sold/traded at least a good chunk of them, as would everyone else who was doing the same thing.

 

Also, while the relative print run data is interesting, I don't buy the argument that "instant 2nd printing" equates to not heavily speculated upon.

 

That's not what I said. What I said was this: "Books that go into immediate reprintings didn't have enough copies printed in the first place to satisfy demand." and "Books that sell out quickly enough to have an immediate second printing aren't hoarded....they are distributed far and wide."

 

And, there IS a difference between a book that has a second printing because it has been heavily speculated (Spiderman #1) and one that simply sells out (like ASM #361.)

 

Again: you can't use "hoarded" and "speculated" interchangeably.

 

The former means that people gather them up and held them.

 

The latter simply means they thought they would be worth something higher than acquisition cost at some point.

 

And, according to the data we have, ASM #361 wasn't speculated in much greater numbers (say, more than a 20% bump) than other issues of the day.

 

#358 was speculated on in far higher numbers, for example, because of the gatefold cover (which turned out to be quite passé, but was rather novel at the time.) So, by the way, was #363.

 

Also...there is a difference between speculating on a book by placing an order for it (which affects the print run) and speculating on a book by buying it on the shelf (which doesn't affect the print run.)

 

ASM #361 wasn't speculated the first way much more than most other issues of ASM, and certainly wasn't speculated the second way, because, as you note, it was "1 per customer"...in other words, there wasn't really a CHANCE to speculate on this book after it was placed on sale; it was already a hit. Sure, there was certainly some degree of "on the shelf speculation" happening, but it wasn't really all THAT speculative, when everyone's grabbing a copy in front of you.

 

Plenty of books from 1990-92 were heavily printed (& speculated upon), went to near-instant second printings, and _still_ saw their first prints go up in value quickly. Some examples:

 

Spider-Man 1

 

Not true. Spiderman #1 did not go up in value quickly, or at all. The only books that had value were the bagged copies. If someone paid more than $5 for a regular copy, he would have paid more than he could have, from just about anyone.

 

Having an immediate second printing does NOT *necessarily* mean that a book is going to be valuable...what it means is that it was underordered, and sold out at the distribution level.

 

Man of Steel 1

 

Man of Steel #1 didn't have a second printing, and because it was the highest ordered book of the year, neither needed one, nor did it ever "go up in value very quickly" (or at all.)

 

FF 347

 

Partially true. Though CC order numbers for FF #347 were up significantly over the immediately preceding issues (avg about 31-32k copies), at 47,400, it was still less than New Mutants #96 (55,500) X-Factor #61 (59,600) and a little more than half of X-Men #271 (at 87,000.)

 

And...it featured art by then still very popular Art Adams, and teamed the hottest characters in comics at the time: Ghost Rider, Wolverine, and Spidey.

 

Even with all of that, it never managed to break the $10 barrier on a national scale (if at all), or for any length of time.

 

In the case of several of the books you list here, many of them weren't "heavily printed", relative to the time period. This was one of them. About average numbers. Good for FF...not all that special, though.

 

Hulk 377

 

Hulk #377 was advertised as having a "neon cover." It did not. It had an INTERESTING cover, but it was advertised as having a special gimmick. Still, CC orders for the book, while double the usual Hulk numbers, were still only 58,600 copies...which was less than New Mutants #97 (64,400), and X-Men #272 (93,100), and Hulk was getting to be quite the hot book (Keown) at that time.

 

Not "heavily printed."

 

Ghost Rider 5

 

This was, again, a book that took everyone by surprise...a bit. Orders for the title weren't all that hot early on, and #4 was a famously "under distributed" issue (tough Cap City numbers for #2 and #3 are a bit lower.)

 

But #5 featured...you guessed it...the Punisher, who was enjoying his reign as the hottest character in comics. Still...Cap City orders for #5 were only 52,800, just about 20% more than for #4 at 44,000.

 

As well, Ghost Rider #1 wasn't second printed until issue #5 came out, both on sale in July of 1990. I remember seeing a huge stack of #5s at Comics and Comix on Telegraph in Berkley. Those were the days.

 

Anyhoo...not heavily printed, especially coming out the same month as Spiderman #2, which had Cap City orders of 168,600...or more than three times that of GR #5.

 

Robin 1

 

I've already addressed Robin #1. It turned out to be the #1 selling DC of the year (1990), and also took everyone by surprise. It belongs in the same category as ASM #361. Even still, the print run was a bit more than X-Men #272, and a little more than [/b]half the best selling issue of the month, Spiderman #6.

 

Batman #457 (also second printed), was the lead-up to this issue, and people were ready to feel frisky about Batman again...plus, Neal Adams poster (and Neal wasn't doing any DC work in those days.)

 

Gimmicks galore.

 

But it is about as close to the ASM #361 situation as your list gets. It was a legit $20 book by the end of December (came out in November.)

 

Something to keep in mind: DC books weren't speculated to anywhere near the degree that Marvel books were, with the possible exception of Batman books.

 

Spectacular 189

 

The first of the four hologram covers that month (and it was SUPPOSED to be a FULL hologram cover, a la Ultraverse the next year), and the lowest ordered (85,100.) It was the only one of the four that had ANY back issue value, and again...$10 is probably where it maxed out.

 

Gimmicks all the way. They sold well, but they weren't necessarily printed in great amounts, or, if they were, had no subsequent value.

 

Silver Surfer 50

 

As I recall (and this might be true of a couple of the books on this list), the second printing of this book did not come out until sometime during Infinity Gauntlet. Regardless, it's another gimmick, and gimmicks ruled the day. There are no Cap City numbers for this book, so we don't have a clear idea of print run, but Silver Surfer orders were in the toilet until issue #49...29k, 30k, 33k...so #50's numbers wouldn't be in the "heavily printed" category.

 

Gimmicks that looked great....like this one...did very well when they went on sale.

 

Man of Steel 18

 

Again, not true. This book never held any substantial value as a back issue, even at the height of the Superman #75 craze. It *might* have been as high as $10? And, none of these books were "instantly second printed." The first "second printing" of this story was Superman #75. As well, the order numbers for MOS #18 vs. Superman #75 look like this:

 

MOS #18 - 26,350

 

Superman #75 - 281,400 (and those are just the Cap City orders for the $2.50 Collector's Bagged edition. The numbers for the regular edition aren't there, but the book sold 4 million or so first printings.)

 

As strange as it may sound to some, people weren't after "Doomsday"...they wanted the "issue where Superman dies." As such, yes, there was collateral demand for the entire storyline, and yes, they were all reprinted fairly quickly...but the focus was entirely on Superman #75.

 

Superman 75

 

This is the only legitimate inclusion in this list, the grand-daddy of all the "instant sellout, massive demand, went up in value very quickly" issues that have come out.

 

_None_ of these books was a surprise for those watching the market.

 

That's because _Half_ of them don't belong on this list. Hard to be surprised by that which isn't surprising.

 

 

Again, the surprises (at least in Philly at the time) were books like Barbie 1, Ren & Stimpy 1, Vampirella 1, Alpha Flight 106 -- I don't know _anyone_ who called those ahead of time. Show me someone who did & I'll be impressed.

 

You won't believe me, because it's an anecdote, but people in the Bay Area were talking about Alpha Flight #106 before it came out as a potentially hot book.

 

I don't recall Barbie #1 being all that hot a book. Vengeance of Vampirella #1, yes, definitely took people by surprise, as did Lady Death #1.

 

But ASM 361? Yeah -- it had potential.

 

Again....not according to the order numbers, or the rankings at Diamond, or the advertising material, or....

 

(Congrats to anyone who made it this far!)

 

 

 

 

[mr_highgrade]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

 

Did you read it? If so, is there anything you'd like to respond to?

[kimik]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

But, why would anyone speculate on it or hoard it to this day?

[valiantman]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

What's the ratio for the miswrapped lower left corner?

[Broke as a Joke]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

#admityou'rewrong

[the blob]

I recall going to local hotel cons on Long Island back in the early 90s, and there was brisk trade in all the hot books being sold at high prices, and there was buying across both sides of the tables at very nice prices. I guess some people went to their local comic shops, but my friends and I were wheeling and dealing in person at a few different venues.

 

 

I don't recall what ASM 361 was doing, but you could find buyers for all kinds of recent back issues at these shows. I personally sold stuff like Star Wars: Dark Empire runs and all of the pre-Unity Valiants to dealers for excellent prices. I started buying Valiant around Magnus issue 9 hitting the stands so it wasn't yet impossible to find the back issues.

 

I remember being at the Constantino Brumidi Lodge in Deer Park, NY and sold a guy a Magnus 0 with coupon for $100! Around 1992-3 maybe.

 

 

Blob, you ever go to these shows? They used to put them on in RVC too.

 

 

I went to the Roosevelt Hotel shows and later the Carbonaro church basement shows. I was generally not trying to sell anything, I did do some trading. Whenever I tried to sell SA books I'd get a whole song and dance about how "we're not really looking for ASM 4, 10, FF 48..." or whatever else I might have, but they'd do me a favor and pay me nothing for them. But I wasn't collecting the "hot" new book at that point anyway. I just know what I saw working at my local shop (the one near FLS) and hanging out there way too much and what I saw at other shops.

 

with that said if every collector was the wheeler and dealer you were my guess is that would have crashed the prices the dealers were willing to pay as they'd be getting offered so much of this stuff what helped keep ASM 361 at $15-$25 or whatever it was for a while was he fact that many copies were sitting in collections and not getting pumped back into collectordom, thus creating some sense of perceived scarcity.

[the blob]

I think your newsstand 361 story is interesting, and maybe that's where the real action was. store orders on 361 were not THAT much more than 360, but perhaps on the newsstand rather than there being 50% returns guys like you swooped up all the copies out there and there were hardly any. maybe that's where the real opportunity to hoard and speculate happened.

[RockMyAmadeus]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

But, why would anyone speculate on it or hoard it to this day?

 

I speculate on and hoard it to this day.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

#admityou'rewrong

 

Exceptions to the rule do not make the rule, "Broke." Let's not be silly.

[FormerReader]

Amazing Spiderman #361, wasn't that book heavily speculated on?

 

No.

 

I'm just messing with you. I give you credit you are very thorough if anything.