Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[revat]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

 

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

you're probably at the point where it may behoove you to put RMA on 'ignore' if you don't like the way he talks to people.

[Logan510]

Oooooh,what did i stumble on here?

 

 

You keep out of it, trouble maker

[Broke as a Joke]

Well RMA did call anyone who did not sell their multiple copies of 361 when it was selling for $25 dollars "stupid".

 

"If they were smart, they sold them quickly. If they were stupid, they held on to them, if the point was speculation."

 

"I have little doubt there were stupid people who missed the window of opportunity. However...that doesn't negate the fact that most people knew how to act in their best financial interests, and quickly distributed the books to others while the price was good. That's basic human nature at work."

 

"Speculated on? Absolutely. That cover blew the collective panties off the market.

 

HOARDED...?

 

No.

 

Unless you (the generic "you") were stupid."

 

--all RMA from earlier

 

I guess everyone that chimed in here saying they held on to this book for years after is "stupid", even though 20+ years later you could slab those copies and make a lot more than cashing in for loose change 2-3 months after release.

 

 

 

 

 

[Petey's Wheatcake]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere."

 

No. That's not correct.

 

I'll say it again: people were speculating, but no one speculated on ASM #361 in any sort of unusual or exceptional way. The numbers we have bear that out. That doesn't mean people didn't speculate on #361....but to say "OMG, people ordered CASE loads of the book!" isn't accurate. It didn't happen, except in rare instances. Do you know what people DID order case loads of? #363. #365. #375. Those were ordered by the case load. And, as we know, those books turned out to be, and have remained, duds since the moment they were printed, making money only for Marvel, Diamond, and the original retailers.

 

We're not talking about speculation, though. We're talking about hoarding after the fact. And when a book is $25 within a month or two, those who paid $1.25 for them aren't going to be keeping them very long.

 

ASM #361 was a first appearance. This needs to be stressed.

 

#375 was a gimmick, and #363 was the conclusion of what turned out to be a popular story. If you were spending your money on a character's third appearance instead of his first, then pull tabs would probably have given you a better return on your investment.

 

There is a very clear reason why investors/speculators would buy #361 and avoid the others. I think your points are well taken in regard to short term consumer demand though.

 

You asked me other questions that I don't have time to respond to at the moment, but I promise to return with insightful, thought-provoking commentary as soon as possible. :thumbsup:

[revat]

Well RMA did call anyone who did not sell their multiple copies of 361 when it was selling for $25 dollars "stupid".

 

"If they were smart, they sold them quickly. If they were stupid, they held on to them, if the point was speculation."

 

"I have little doubt there were stupid people who missed the window of opportunity. However...that doesn't negate the fact that most people knew how to act in their best financial interests, and quickly distributed the books to others while the price was good. That's basic human nature at work."

 

"Speculated on? Absolutely. That cover blew the collective panties off the market.

 

HOARDED...?

 

No.

 

Unless you (the generic "you") were stupid."

 

--all RMA from earlier

 

I guess everyone that chimed in here saying they held on to this book for years after is "stupid", even though 20+ years later you could slab those copies and make a lot more than cashing in for loose change 2-3 months after release.

 

 

 

 

 

I THINK the general gist is that while many many people had boxes full of Luke Cage 1 or WOlverine 50 three years after release (and possibly today), there's little evidence to suggest that ASM 361 was treated the same way. Everyone had to have '1-5', not 50-100

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

 

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

It really shouldn't have started in the first place, but here we are. If you're unwilling to prove the accusations publicly, you shouldn't be making the accusations publicly.

 

These are things we learn as children.

 

In any event, I'm not mad at you, I bear you no malice, and I am not offended by what you've said. But what you've said isn't really very fair, is it?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well RMA did call anyone who did not sell their multiple copies of 361 when it was selling for $25 dollars "stupid".

 

"If they were smart, they sold them quickly. If they were stupid, they held on to them, if the point was speculation."

 

"I have little doubt there were stupid people who missed the window of opportunity. However...that doesn't negate the fact that most people knew how to act in their best financial interests, and quickly distributed the books to others while the price was good. That's basic human nature at work."

 

"Speculated on? Absolutely. That cover blew the collective panties off the market.

 

HOARDED...?

 

No.

 

Unless you (the generic "you") were stupid."

 

--all RMA from earlier

 

That's right. Note the qualifier: (the generic "you")

 

Are you offended at the use of the word stupid, when it's not directed at you or anyone in particular?

 

If so, why? Do you often internalize general comments? Do you find the frank description of general behavior offensive?

 

How about people who walk in front of moving trains, or deliberately touch live wires? Are you offended if I say people who do those things are stupid? What if you are a person who has walked in front of a train, or touched a live wire, and lived to tell about it? Would you think I was calling you, personally, stupid, because I referred to people who did that as "stupid"?

 

Yes, many, many people internalize general comments, and take them personally, to their detriment. This is the very essence of political correctness: taking personal offense at general comments.

 

I guess everyone that chimed in here saying they held on to this book for years after is "stupid", even though 20+ years later you could slab those copies and make a lot more than cashing in for loose change 2-3 months after release.

 

Again, that's not the point. And I'm not saying that to be offensive; just stating what is. What the book is worth now isn't relevant to the point I am making.

 

And what if your copies are all 9.0s or worse? And why do you characterize it as "loose change"? Does resorting to hyperbole make your point more effective? What part does inflation play in that?

[Peter G]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

 

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

It really shouldn't have started in the first place, but here we are. If you're unwilling to prove the accusations publicly, you shouldn't be making the accusations publicly.

 

These are things we learn as children.

 

In any event, I'm not mad at you, I bear you no malice, and I am not offended by what you've said. But what you've said isn't really very fair, is it?

 

You are certainly consistent in your childish mentality. Perhaps that is just your nature.

 

I avoid scorpions. That is my nature.

 

I am not mad at you either ?

 

Just don't wanna engage that mentality.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere."

 

No. That's not correct.

 

I'll say it again: people were speculating, but no one speculated on ASM #361 in any sort of unusual or exceptional way. The numbers we have bear that out. That doesn't mean people didn't speculate on #361....but to say "OMG, people ordered CASE loads of the book!" isn't accurate. It didn't happen, except in rare instances. Do you know what people DID order case loads of? #363. #365. #375. Those were ordered by the case load. And, as we know, those books turned out to be, and have remained, duds since the moment they were printed, making money only for Marvel, Diamond, and the original retailers.

 

We're not talking about speculation, though. We're talking about hoarding after the fact. And when a book is $25 within a month or two, those who paid $1.25 for them aren't going to be keeping them very long.

 

ASM #361 was a first appearance. This needs to be stressed.

 

First appearances weren't treated, in 1992, the way they are now: worshipped to the exclusion of anything and everything else. In 1992, a first appearance might be worth $60....while a second appearance might be worth $30-$40.

 

Now, a first appearance can be worth $1,000, and a second appearance can literally be worth $60. Yes, the first appearance of Carnage was a big deal...but there wasn't anywhere near the separation of "FIRST APPEARANCE": and "everything else" that there is today.

 

Back then, ANY appearance by Wolverine, the Punisher, and to a certain extent Ghost Rider and other "hot" characters, was a "guaranteed" investment.

 

Hulk #340 isn't anyone's first appearance. Still a hot book.

 

Punisher War Journal #6 wasn't a first appearance, either. Still a very hot book.

 

Wolverine #10, same thing.

 

Secret Wars #8, same thing.

 

#375 was a gimmick, and #363 was the conclusion of what turned out to be a popular story. If you were spending your money on a character's third appearance instead of his first, then pull tabs would probably have given you a better return on your investment.

 

The point in bringing those up is that those books were ordered by the case load because people thought they had potential, and they wanted lightning to strike twice. They treated #363, #365, and #375, among others, like they WISH they had treated #361. As evidenced by the fact that people bought cases of them, the fact that they weren't "first appearances" didn't matter.

 

There is a very clear reason why investors/speculators would buy #361 and avoid the others.

 

Except that they didn't, at least not in any way that people are suggesting (that is, ordering them by the case load, while there was still time to do so.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

 

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

It really shouldn't have started in the first place, but here we are. If you're unwilling to prove the accusations publicly, you shouldn't be making the accusations publicly.

 

These are things we learn as children.

 

In any event, I'm not mad at you, I bear you no malice, and I am not offended by what you've said. But what you've said isn't really very fair, is it?

 

You are certainly consistent in your childish mentality. Perhaps that is just your nature.

 

I avoid scorpions. That is my nature.

 

I am not mad at you either ?

 

Just don't wanna engage that mentality.

 

You have refused any and all invitations to explain yourself, while continuing to call me "childish" and "juvenile."

 

You have said, multiple times, that you do not "wish to engage that mentality", yet you continue to engage in spite of yourself.

 

You characterize quite reasonable and responsible statements as "childish."

 

I'm only pointing out the glaring inconsistencies between what you're saying, and what you're doing. You say you're not mad, but, as others pointed out, your posts proclaim loudly enough that you are, indeed, very much offended, and have taken this conversation quite personally...otherwise, you wouldn't have such a hard time answering simple questions, while continuing to call attempts to reason with you "childish."

 

Who, then, is really being childish? Is trying to reason with you a childish venture?

 

[Lonzilla]

I'd say that if you were a speculator back then, you most likely went heavy on ASM 361.

I was doing small scale shows and flea markets at the time, McFarlane AMS's were big sellers at much higher prices raw than today due to no internet (ASM 300 being the exception), and many Larsen ASMs were an easy $5 sale.

The fact that ASM 361 was hyped with a cover shot in the ASM 359 letters column may as well have told anyone who was speculating to buy multiples.

I bought 25 copies the day it came out between 2 shops and another 20 at 7-11's and Wawa (Philly area convenience store) when the newsstand copies hit.

There were all gone within 2 months, with the early half selling at $10 each and the later half at $20 each.

As easy as it is to flip a new hot book today, it was just as easy back in the stone age

[Peter G]

 

What I don't like is how you talk to people here. And its not because I am thin skinned. I just find that you act rude. When i say your not interested in having a serious conversation, I mean you don't need to score cheap points by taking it to a personal level, which you did several times, and not just with me, but other posters too.

 

Example?

 

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

It really shouldn't have started in the first place, but here we are. If you're unwilling to prove the accusations publicly, you shouldn't be making the accusations publicly.

 

These are things we learn as children.

 

In any event, I'm not mad at you, I bear you no malice, and I am not offended by what you've said. But what you've said isn't really very fair, is it?

 

You are certainly consistent in your childish mentality. Perhaps that is just your nature.

 

I avoid scorpions. That is my nature.

 

I am not mad at you either ?

 

Just don't wanna engage that mentality.

 

You have refused any and all invitations to explain yourself, while continuing to call me "childish" and "juvenile."

 

You have said, multiple times, that you do not "wish to engage that mentality", yet you continue to engage in spite of yourself.

 

You characterize quite reasonable and responsible statements as "childish."

 

I'm only pointing out the glaring inconsistencies between what you're saying, and what you're doing. You say you're not mad, but, as others pointed out, your posts proclaim loudly enough that you are, indeed, very much offended, and have taken this conversation quite personally...otherwise, you wouldn't have such a hard time answering simple questions, while continuing to call attempts to reason with you "childish."

 

Who, then, is really being childish? Is trying to reason with you a childish venture?

 

 

I extended an invitation to try to resolve this privately. You declined. Leave it alone now. There is nothing more to say.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think this conversation should be discussed in private or not at all.

 

I extended an invitation to try to resolve this privately. You declined.

 

That was in invitation...? I wasn't aware that I declined. My PM box has no new PMs in it. You're perfectly welcome to PM me. I have no issue with you to resolve, so I believe the onus is on you, no...?

 

Leave it alone now. There is nothing more to say.

 

Let's hope you will honor your statement.

 

 

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I knew people who pre-ordered hundreds of copies of this book.

 

You did...? Were they comic store owners...?

 

 

The only thing that kept me from ordering in large quantities(I ordered multiples, but not multiple cases), was I honestly thought it was too obvious. Greg Buls of Kingpin Comics, for instance, made ASM 361 his monthly pre-order pick. Personally, I assumed everyone was jumping on the bandwagon with this one, and the ceiling was limited.

 

Greg Buls has always had a remarkable talent for sniffing out things most people missed. I worked for him in 1999. Not that that's relevant, but I did get to deal with him on a daily basis for several months.

 

 

Turned out I was wrong, of course, but there were plenty of Valiants to be had, and I didn't regret my longbox of Magnus #12s either. :smile:

 

A whole longbox of Magnus #12s...? Wow.

 

That's almost the entire print run!

 

 

Speculation was already running rampant at this time, and I can't think of anything that truly slipped under the radar by 1992. Just crack open a CBG from this time period, and you'll see that many sellers didn't need the internet to move large quantities of books. Once you placed your first few ads, you had a nice customer base from around the country, and you were good to go.

 

The big spenders I was referring to were not stores, but actually a baseball card collector I traded books with every now and again, and a college friend of mine. I knew a handful of people who were dabbling in comic book speculation by the spring of 1992, but I was by far the most aggressive Valiant buyer of the group. That's why a longbox filled with a Pre-Unity key may sound ridiculous today, but it really wasn't at the time.

 

I once owned more than 600 copies of Rai #0, and I had a strict limit of no more than 50 copies of X-O Manowar #1 at $5 each in one of my CBG ads. :laugh:

 

Fortunately, there is documentation available for some of this - those CBG issues from 1992 and 1993. Any ads from Monster Island Comics or Ryan from Minnetonka, MN would've been mine. I'm far too lazy to search for my personal copies this weekend, but I might try and relive the memories next week maybe. Not that it will show anything other than the fact that I sold lots and lots of Valiants and maybe the occasional Darkhawk #1, but now my interest has been piqued. Good times. :smile:

 

 

[Mercury8989-migration]

I knew people who pre-ordered hundreds of copies of this book.

 

You did...? Were they comic store owners...?

 

 

The only thing that kept me from ordering in large quantities(I ordered multiples, but not multiple cases), was I honestly thought it was too obvious. Greg Buls of Kingpin Comics, for instance, made ASM 361 his monthly pre-order pick. Personally, I assumed everyone was jumping on the bandwagon with this one, and the ceiling was limited.

 

Greg Buls has always had a remarkable talent for sniffing out things most people missed. I worked for him in 1999. Not that that's relevant, but I did get to deal with him on a daily basis for several months.

 

 

Turned out I was wrong, of course, but there were plenty of Valiants to be had, and I didn't regret my longbox of Magnus #12s either. :smile:

 

A whole longbox of Magnus #12s...? Wow.

 

That's almost the entire print run!

 

 

Speculation was already running rampant at this time, and I can't think of anything that truly slipped under the radar by 1992. Just crack open a CBG from this time period, and you'll see that many sellers didn't need the internet to move large quantities of books. Once you placed your first few ads, you had a nice customer base from around the country, and you were good to go.

 

The big spenders I was referring to were not stores, but actually a baseball card collector I traded books with every now and again, and a college friend of mine. I knew a handful of people who were dabbling in comic book speculation by the spring of 1992, but I was by far the most aggressive Valiant buyer of the group. That's why a longbox filled with a Pre-Unity key may sound ridiculous today, but it really wasn't at the time.

 

I once owned more than 600 copies of Rai #0, and I had a strict limit of no more than 50 copies of X-O Manowar #1 at $5 each in one of my CBG ads. :laugh:

 

Fortunately, there is documentation available for some of this - those CBG issues from 1992 and 1993. Any ads from Monster Island Comics or Ryan from Minnetonka, MN would've been mine. I'm far too lazy to search for my personal copies this weekend, but I might try and relive the memories next week maybe. Not that it will show anything other than the fact that I sold lots and lots of Valiants and maybe the occasional Darkhawk #1, but now my interest has been piqued. Good times. :smile:

 

[rjrjr]

Me and my brother had over 20 copies of ASM 361 at release point, and we were teenagers. I can only imagine what those with true disposable income amassed back then. To try to sit here and claim that people didn't hoard books in the 90's is highly subjective. My cousin and many others use to pick off Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil by the dozens in the late 70's, early 80's.

 

The spawn of Venom was a big deal from day one. Once that book hit the stands and people saw the cover it was a snapped up by everyone in bulk. There is no way to know if they were going to resell them in a week or in 20+ years.

 

My brother, BrianR, posted in this thread that he hoarded them (and he did) and I did as well. And I didn't even collect ASM and I have 5 copies in my collection. Hoarding was definitely underway in the early 90s. My recollection is ASM 361 was a hoarded book.

[rjrjr]

RMA I know you will never admit that you are wrong but come on...

 

 

Try to save the personal comments for the Water Cooler or Comics General. If you can't have a conversation without making it personal, you have no business having a conversation at all. I'll save the off-topic lecture for now.

 

Venom was very popular before 361 came out. He was already the villain everyone wanted to see, even with such few appearances.

 

You are incorrect. The characters "everyone wanted to see" in that time period were Cable, Wolverine, Punisher, and Ghost Rider. And the villains "everyone wanted to see" during that time period were Hobgoblin and Sabretooth.

 

Let's nail down everything, so you don't run off the rail: I didn't say Venom wasn't gaining in popularity. He certainly was. However, he was not at all the uber popular character he would become, and THAT popularity hit its stride with the publication of the Venom: Lethal Protector mini-series.

 

This may be a hard thing for some younger collectors to understand, but there really was a time when villains weren't considered "main characters", and it wasn't until Venom became a "semi-hero" in ASM #361-363 that he really started to gain popularity.

 

He was so popular that they would even tease his small cameo appearance in the book with a header on the top of the cover.

 

Examples?

 

Here's one: Quasar #6.

 

Quasar Cap City numbers:

 

#4 - 18,400

#5 - 21,100

#6 - 21,400

#7 - 20,900

#8 - 18,800

 

No significant bump.

 

Venom wasn't an instantly popular character. In fact, it took an entire year for him to return after ASM #300. Between 1988 and 1992 he appeared in a grand total of 25 comics, which includes appearances in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, and tiny cameos in books like What If #31 and #34.

 

The Punisher appeared in 67 different comic books in 1991 alone.

 

In fact Wizard Magazine would feature Venom by himself on the cover of issue #9 which is one month after the release of 361.

 

Yes. And...?

 

X-O Manowar and Flash appeared on the covers of #7. Wetworks was on the cover of #14. Bishop was on issue #8. Maxx appeared twice, first on issue #16 and then on issue #20.

 

And in that very same issue 361 placed 9th on the infamous Wizard Top Ten Hottest Comics. Again all this less than one full month after release of 361.

 

How do you know that was "less than one full month" after "release of 361"? I looked up the USCO info for ASM #361...it was on sale the week of Feb 11, 1992. Do you have that information for Wizard #9?

 

And, I'm not sure why this is relevant. I don't think anyone's said anything about ASM #361 not being a runaway success, nor Venom not becoming a popular character.

 

By the way...as an interesting aside, Erik Larsen HATED Venom, which is why he drew him looking like such an idjit.

 

This book was speculated, hoarded, hot, whatever you want to call it and this happened basically upon release.

 

You are using words that mean different things, as if they all mean the same thing. If you are using words that mean different things interchangeably to mean the same thing, you're going to be confused.

 

No one is disputing that the book was speculated, nor is anyone disputing that the book was hot.

 

What the book was NOT was hoarded, for the reasons stated above.

 

Now, do you have a reasonable explanation for why you believe it was, or no?

 

Also, this is all within a month with no internet, and even so by the time Wizard puts out that Venom cover issue 361 is long gone off the stands.

 

You do understand that Wizard was a publication about comic books, right...? And, as such, they had access to information that the average collector/comic reader didn't, and at a speed they didn't...? And, again...no one is disputing that ASM #361 wasn't an instant success. No one has said anything like that, but you are arguing as if someone has.

 

There's a difference between "ASM #361 was a hot book instantly upon release" and "Venom was an ultra-popular character when ASM #361 came out."

 

Are you really trying to argue Venom wasn't a popular character by the time ASM 361 came out? Or are we about to see an argument about the difference between popular and ultra-popular?

 

Marvel purposely tapped into the popularity of Venom with Carnage. To think otherwise is just

[rjrjr]

Because like many have already stated in here, they bought alot of copies and held them. Thus, even if unintentionally, they became hoarders. Everyone in that period was buying multiple issues. It wasn't because they had the motivation to sell right away. No, the mentality at the time was buy 10 copies now and put your kids through college later. This was much of what led to the big crash.

 

To act like there was not hoarding going on with ASM 361 or any book back in that time period is naïve. Especially a book with that large of a print run. But maybe being a teenager during that time period would not allow oneself to make the proper judgment.

 

 

This.

 

I still have my original owner copies of ASM 361, Man of Steel 18, X-Men 266, New Mutants 98, etc. Unslabbed, no desire to cash in & sell, even 20+ years later.

 

If a book skyrocketed in the first 60 days, we thought "cool -- I'll be rich in 20 years" not "let me sell out now at its peak."

 

As someone who is just now starting to sell his collection (and apparently being one of RMA's "stupid" people) I 100% agree with this. I was buying comics for my collection. I love owning the "hot" books just like today people like owning the "hot" books. I never imagined I would sell them, but here I am, 35 years later doing just that.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

RMA, I think you are underestimating the number of people, even in 1992, who were buying from their shops and saying "yeah, gimme 10 of those, 5 of those..." and perhaps even "50 of those" and shops saying "I'll order an extra 150 copies because I will always be able to sell them for a buck and maybe they'll be $5 books." ASM being a fairly popular title, it's not like a hot book would be exactly "out of nowhere."

 

No. That's not correct.

 

I'll say it again: people were speculating, but no one speculated on ASM #361 in any sort of unusual or exceptional way. The numbers we have bear that out. That doesn't mean people didn't speculate on #361....but to say "OMG, people ordered CASE loads of the book!" isn't accurate. It didn't happen, except in rare instances. Do you know what people DID order case loads of? #363. #365. #375. Those were ordered by the case load. And, as we know, those books turned out to be, and have remained, duds since the moment they were printed, making money only for Marvel, Diamond, and the original retailers.

 

We're not talking about speculation, though. We're talking about hoarding after the fact. And when a book is $25 within a month or two, those who paid $1.25 for them aren't going to be keeping them very long.

 

ASM #361 was a first appearance. This needs to be stressed.

 

First appearances weren't treated, in 1992, the way they are now: worshipped to the exclusion of anything and everything else. In 1992, a first appearance might be worth $60....while a second appearance might be worth $30-$40.

 

Now, a first appearance can be worth $1,000, and a second appearance can literally be worth $60. Yes, the first appearance of Carnage was a big deal...but there wasn't anywhere near the separation of "FIRST APPEARANCE": and "everything else" that there is today.

 

Back then, ANY appearance by Wolverine, the Punisher, and to a certain extent Ghost Rider and other "hot" characters, was a "guaranteed" investment.

 

Hulk #340 isn't anyone's first appearance. Still a hot book.

 

Punisher War Journal #6 wasn't a first appearance, either. Still a very hot book.

 

Wolverine #10, same thing.

 

Secret Wars #8, same thing.

 

#375 was a gimmick, and #363 was the conclusion of what turned out to be a popular story. If you were spending your money on a character's third appearance instead of his first, then pull tabs would probably have given you a better return on your investment.

 

The point in bringing those up is that those books were ordered by the case load because people thought they had potential, and they wanted lightning to strike twice. They treated #363, #365, and #375, among others, like they WISH they had treated #361. As evidenced by the fact that people bought cases of them, the fact that they weren't "first appearances" didn't matter.

 

There is a very clear reason why investors/speculators would buy #361 and avoid the others.

 

Except that they didn't, at least not in any way that people are suggesting (that is, ordering them by the case load, while there was still time to do so.)

 

We may have to agree to disagree on the whole first appearance thing, because I never would have invested hundreds of dollars in a pre-order of a third appearance, and I think the gap between first and second appearances was usually much wider than what you are suggesting.

 

Yes, back in the day books like Power Man and Iron Fist #66, or even Spectacular Spidey #116 sold well, but at nowhere near the levels of an Iron Fist #14. Firsts were still the most important thing in comics at the time. Heck, the first Silver Age Penguin and Catwoman were about to catch fire in the summer of 1992. Even movie speculation was alive and well. Maybe collecting habits weren't as different 23 years ago as we sometimes think?

 

Anyway, I think the reason #363 sold more copies is because stores upped their orders to meet the demand generated by #361, but not because individual investors saw a future for the book. Intelligent investors were not purchasing cases of #363, or #375. There was not enough upside. These issues were going to sell in stores, but not as wall books.

 

Secret Wars #5 and Lando #2 sold very well recently, but not because people are trying to flip them. Even accurate print run statistics can only tell us so much about who is buying and why. The rest requires a different form of speculation.

[Mercury8989-migration]

I knew people who pre-ordered hundreds of copies of this book.

 

You did...? Were they comic store owners...?

 

 

The only thing that kept me from ordering in large quantities(I ordered multiples, but not multiple cases), was I honestly thought it was too obvious. Greg Buls of Kingpin Comics, for instance, made ASM 361 his monthly pre-order pick. Personally, I assumed everyone was jumping on the bandwagon with this one, and the ceiling was limited.

 

Greg Buls has always had a remarkable talent for sniffing out things most people missed. I worked for him in 1999. Not that that's relevant, but I did get to deal with him on a daily basis for several months.

 

 

Turned out I was wrong, of course, but there were plenty of Valiants to be had, and I didn't regret my longbox of Magnus #12s either. :smile:

 

A whole longbox of Magnus #12s...? Wow.

 

That's almost the entire print run!

 

 

Speculation was already running rampant at this time, and I can't think of anything that truly slipped under the radar by 1992. Just crack open a CBG from this time period, and you'll see that many sellers didn't need the internet to move large quantities of books. Once you placed your first few ads, you had a nice customer base from around the country, and you were good to go.

 

The big spenders I was referring to were not stores, but actually a baseball card collector I traded books with every now and again, and a college friend of mine. I knew a handful of people who were dabbling in comic book speculation by the spring of 1992, but I was by far the most aggressive Valiant buyer of the group. That's why a longbox filled with a Pre-Unity key may sound ridiculous today, but it really wasn't at the time.

 

I once owned more than 600 copies of Rai #0, and I had a strict limit of no more than 50 copies of X-O Manowar #1 at $5 each in one of my CBG ads. :laugh:

 

Fortunately, there is documentation available for some of this - those CBG issues from 1992 and 1993. Any ads from Monster Island Comics or Ryan from Minnetonka, MN would've been mine. I'm far too lazy to search for my personal copies this weekend, but I might try and relive the memories next week maybe. Not that it will show anything other than the fact that I sold lots and lots of Valiants and maybe the occasional Darkhawk #1, but now my interest has been piqued. Good times. :smile: