New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!) 6 6

[Doc McCoy]

3 hours ago, rocket1312 said:

One bidder's no different than another, right?

In this case, I wouldn't think so.  Someone employed by Heritage my have a more intimate knowledge of the auction itself, when the best time to place a bid within their system may be, etc than the average bidding public.  

[Brian Peck]

7 hours ago, Nexus said:

The Felix Comic Art Podcast visits San Diego Comic Con 2017 where we talk to arguably the most influential person in the original art market, co-founder of Hertiage Auctions, Jim Halperin.

http://felixcomicart.libsyn.com/

Jim is a major comic art collector in his own right, but on this day, we focus on Heritage and its impact on the comic art market. All auction houses tout record prices achieved...but what about potential market manipulation or shilling? Jim doesn't shy away from any of it. If you've been curious about what goes on behind the curtain at auction houses, this episode is a must-listen. Thanks to Jim for being so game!

In addition, part 2 is a bonus section from SDCC where we catch up with some former guests Satya Chetri, Gene Park, Ron Sonenthal, Lambert Sheng, and Andy Robbins!

Also, go to our YouTube channel (youtube.com/felixcomicart) to check out our latest video: The SDCC 2017 dinner with Walter Simonson hosted by Scott Dunbier! It was a blast, thank you Walter and Scott!

Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Sign up for our mailing list at felixcomicart.com. Support the show by leaving a rating/review on iTunes. We reward those who do both. Thanks and enjoy the show!

Another interesting podcast, you are really mixing it up. Halperin was very open and had some good insights into auctions. While he is also a collector himself (for part 2 with Jim hope you do a video top 5) his discussions about Heritage was an eye opener. Glad to see you are casting a wide net when it comes to guests. The 2nd part with the quick round questions from past guests was fun. Nice to hear their impressions of SDCC. 

I did find most of the dealers didn't have alot of new stuff, with the exception of Mitch. Most interesting art for me were the two Batman #14 pages all by Jerry Robinson (Mitch), not something I would buy but a rare early artwork from a classic artist. For the show I only bought two pieces from a dealers (Silver Starr and Kubert X-Men #28) everything else were from artists (Willingham pre-con commission, McKone cover, Balent iPod) or collectors.The Marvel Farefane #37 cover prelim by Vess was the big surprise of the show. Guy was walking around with a portfolio of a mishmash of artwork which included the Vess.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Brian Peck

[gumbydarnit]

Felix great job as usual! Thanks to you and Jim for letting us have a peak behind the auction house curtain.  It was fascinating how frank and upfront Jim was during the interview.

As to Heritage employees' ability to bid on auction items, it would be nice, if it was noted beside the running bids which bid was placed by an employee of Heritage.

 

For example:

$29,900 (*HAE)

$30,400

$30,900 (*HAE)

* Heritage Auctions employee's personal bid.

This wouldn't reveal the identity of the bidder, it just lets us know what the frequency of bids come from Heritage employees.

Thanks again for letting us hear your thoughts and for providing another resource to buy artwork. 

 

 

 

[vodou]

It's a good interview and Jim was pretty open and forthright. It's great that he even agreed at all and that HA legal "let" him considering some of the questions could/would be problematic from a corporate standpoint. Understandably he does tiptoe in certain spots. This is obvious if you're paying attention and the reasons why are easy enough to suss out. All good.

The subject of asymmetric information remains open. Heritage by allowing House and employee bidding leaves that door open and has a marketing advantage to consignors. Other houses that don't have a (let's say "perceived") market/marketing advantage to bidders. (Perceived because they may be simply lying or have ineffective/non-existent internal controls.) I think individuals will just decide what's acceptable and what's not -personally. Certainly, this value judgement can be different depending on whether one is a net consignor or bidder at any one sale or even over the course of an auction season (whatever that may be).

The subject does concern me and I do take it into account whenever I swap DNA with an auction house (any of 'em).

What concerns me? Aside from the potential for outright cheating (breaking of internal legal/moral "rules") and unsatisfactory controls, knowledge of these non-public factors:

1. current/future consignments potentially and already contracted for (but not yet on the public site), both quantity and quality

2. failure of prior financial arrangements to produce a non-auction outcome

3. data missing from HA public archive that may not be missing non-public

There might be more too, but that's the big stuff off the top of my head. To be fair, the above is broad and employees in a large corporate structure tend to be silo-ed as to access, so not everybody (anybody?) likely has the complete picture of "all comic art at HA past/present/future". But I don't think there is a public statement out there to this effect, so we're not given that confidence by HA as an offset to the 'risks' either.

[PhilipB2k17]

Do the HA employees (of the House) bidding on a piece know who the consigners are? Are they high rollers who give HA a lot of business, and who they want to maintain a good relationship with? It may behoove HA to "take one for the team" on some pieces in order to maintain that relationship with that big consigner. While, they are indeed paying full price and the buyer's premium for that piece (although, when the House bids on it they pay the buyer's premium to themselves, so they do get an effective discount), they are also making that specific consigner happy, and they may give HA their business in the future with other higher end consignments.

So, the incentive for HA is to sell the pieces at the highest possible price, which is in favor of the consignor, not the buyer. If that means HA bids on some pieces in order to get more on the road that they can make their money back on, so be it. This is why in-house bidding is not always legal. It distorts the market. Especially since, if they win the piece, they know where the underbid was, and may assume they can re-sell for at least that amount, and make up the difference on future commissions from the consigner they made happy.

In the case of comic art, I'm not sure "insider information" is all that useful, except to the extent they know who the consigner is, and may know what the reserve price is. It is probably far more problematic for ungraded comics than for OA. Although, I can think of one instance where having inside info may be a bog deal: 60's Kirby art. They have knowledge about any negotiations or agreements with the Kirby estate on these pieces, and could factor that into their bidding.

Disclosure of the fact that HA employees are bidding on a piece should help alleviate some concern, as anyone bidding in that auction may decide to withhold a maximum bid, or may lower their bid ceiling because they think the piece may come back on the market in the near future.

Shill bidding is a concern in every auction of this type. The only real way to combat it is to submit sealed bids, and award the item to the highest sealed bid. That creates its own problems, as what if the high sealed bid is far higher than the second highest bid? Should it be downward adjusted? If not, it may not get the highest price for the item that the market is willing to pay, because people will be reluctant to bid.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by PhilipB2k17

[ESeffinga]

Heritage bidding rules aside, I just wanted to say again I really enjoy listening to these, no matter what form they take. I think I've learned or heard something new or unexpected in just about every one, and they definitely leave me thinking about facets of the hobby I've never really given a lot of thought to. And it's fun to hear people speak that I've known only as screen names for decades, and not had the opportunity to speak to in the flesh, or just haven't spoken to in nearly 20 years.

Thanks Felix.

[PhilipB2k17]

I do want to add that I really enjoy these podcasts as well. And, I Hope I get to meet this cast of characters in person at some point. It seems like such a good group of guys. 

I know I have interacted with a couple here, but I feel somewhat isolated where I am as an OA collector. These podcasts help. 

 

[gumbydarnit]

I want to thank Felix and his guests for getting us all to think about and examine this hobby more carefully. We have invested a lot up to this point in our collections and I for one, think it's time to take a step back and survey the current landscape with clearer eyes. If you listen to enough of them you start to see some themes developing.

Most of the major collectors are slowing down. The inflated above market price tags are a turn off to them, and these are guys have deep pockets and love this stuff but they are losing the drive to collect given these prices.

They are happy with their collection, even if the market collapses and it wipes out a big chunk of the collection's value. They are all in the same age range mid 40's-50's. Some might attempt to cash out at some point but most want to keep their collection until the end.

It is generally thought that some dealers bid on pieces to keep the prices from getting to low and to get the bidding action going to further drive up prices. We have a confirmed example of a dealer shilling on his past auctions. There is one auction house (maybe more) where employees are allowed to bid on pieces in their own auctions.  For me this all adds up to the big kicker:

The high prices realized at auctions are used by collectors to embolden themselves to justify their LARGER purchases.

If that FF cover sold at auction for XX then I feel good about buying this one for a bit above that. Ever see an auction result and think WOW! IT SOLD FOR THAT... I better get to that dealer's site and pick up that artist's similar example before someone beats me to it. Not to mention those pesky rumored private sales "Did you hear the Byrne X-Men #___  cover sold for $_____!"  What you don't know is how much of the price information we are getting is REAL and how much is SMOKE AND MIRRORS?

The more that I learn from these seasoned collectors, the more I feel it's time for me to slow my roll. I don't want to get caught up in "the prices are only going up" mentality to justify spending more on a piece than I think it's really worth.

Not predicting a crash, bubble or a correction. I'm just saying, you might want to watch your step... it's awfully smoky in here and you don't want to hit your head on a mirror.

[JadeGiant]

I have listened to the first part with Halperin but haven’t finished the latter half. I have enjoyed the podcast so far and appreciate Jim’s transparency and willingness to address Felix’s questions on a variety of topics. I haven’t won an auction since before the shilling fiasco broke loose. Maybe I was naïve, maybe I was just in my bliss as I chased art and didn’t want to think about how auctions are set up. I have watched several auctions since the news broke but just can’t get myself to hit the bid button. I was impressed by how Jim handled the question so I found myself considering HA for another purchase but I certainly won’t ever place an early bid again as I don’t like the possibility for shenanigans – why would I open myself up to that possibility?

[PhilipB2k17]

I can't afford that big ticket stuff, so whether that sees a huge market correction is not relevant to my collecting experience. But, the low end prices are preventing more people from entering the hobby, IMHO. The price barrier is a big deal for a lot of comic collectors who would be expected to naturally graduate to OA. 

But, are you going to spend $300-400 on a piece of art, or on 35 new comics? Or a nice slab or two?

The higher entry price point, combined with how much infomation and knowledge required to be a smart OA collector is a huge barrier. 

I already see a speculative bubble on new art, as the stuff from hot books goes fastest. There is a ton of great new art from books that are not the hot new thing that just sits there. Nobody has "nostalgia" for art from a comic that came out two months ago from a relatively new artist.

That's all speculation. And I'm not saying that art isn't good! It is! But there's lots of tremendous stuff that is not selling  

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by PhilipB2k17

[BCarter27]

5 hours ago, gumbydarnit said:

Ever see an auction result and think WOW! IT SOLD FOR THAT... I better get to that dealer's site and pick up that artist's similar example before someone beats me to it.

Um, no.... (closes 5-6 tabs.)

[Will_K]

I'm more or less a student of the Gene Park school re: the future of collecting original comic art.  I thought Halperin mentioning his son's opinion that "comics and comic art are going to appeal to his generation more than any other collectible" was an interesting point.  Granted, the reasoning is that comics characters pervade the culture.  And that point has been debated before.  But let's say it'll be a slow burn and there's no way to know their affect on the market 10, 20 years from now.

But it's interesting to compare what people have collected over the last 50 years and how those collections have fared.  I'm talking Barbies, matchbooks, Matchbox, GI Joe, baseball cards, Hummels, antique furniture, high-end fine art, movie posters, Beanie Babies, barber chairs, etc.  Do comic books and comic art have more staying power than these?

I'd be scared as heck trying to apply the "Andy Robbins method" to my collection.  But I'd love to listen to him comment on anything.  Doesn't even have to be related to comics.

Did we really have to wait until the 2nd half to get a "Dark Knight" reference??  Other than that, it was another great podcast.  Thanks, Felix !!

Edited August 23, 2017 by Will_K

[Twanj]

18 minutes ago, Will_K said:

I'm more or less a student of the Gene Park school re: the future of collecting original comic art.  I thought Halperin mentioning his son's opinion that "comics and comic art are going to appeal to his generation more than any other collectible" was an interesting point.  Granted, the reasoning is that comics characters pervade the culture.  And that point has been debated before.  But let's say it'll be a slow burn and there's no way to know their affect on the market 10, 20 years from now.

There's going to be a window where comic art is more valuable due to the generations that love them waning out. Kids today will not appreciate Ditko & Kirby to the dollar value extent that people that grew up on it do.

But Disney & WB own the majority of the characters. They're never going to go away. They might hibernate, but they'll always be back. Cartoons, movies, comics, whatever the future may hold.

[Shaun C89]

Thanks again for another excellent podcast Felix, I think you are doing a tremendous service to this hobby! I learn something new with every podcast.

[Panelfan1]

5 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I already see a speculative bubble on new art, as the stuff from hot books goes fastest. There is a ton of great new art from books that are not the hot new thing that just sits there. Nobody has "nostalgia" for art from a comic that came out two months ago from a relatively new artist.

That's all speculation. And I'm not saying that art isn't good! It is! But there's lots of tremendous stuff that is not selling  

 

seems like you are paying attention to new art - what art is tremendous that you see sitting there and not selling, but that is also a good price?  maybe we are missing out- please point some out. I know Felix reps some great artists, but he sells out all the time. so which artists/series are you noticing as being ignored? Genuinely interested.

[Nexus]

Thanks once again to everyone for their kinds words. And, of course, thanks to all the guests for their contributions to the show. This time, it's Jim. Like I said on the show, I was only joking when I requested to have him on. That he actually agreed to do it still surprises me. What's been great about doing the podcast is that, no matter how "big" the guest is, once you sit down and start chatting, they're just another enthusiastic fellow collector.

19 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I do want to add that I really enjoy these podcasts as well. And, I Hope I get to meet this cast of characters in person at some point. It seems like such a good group of guys. 

I know I have interacted with a couple here, but I feel somewhat isolated where I am as an OA collector. These podcasts help. 

 

I'm actually hoping to put something together, most likely at a con, where listeners can meet some of the guys who have been on the show. It's just a matter of picking a con where I can get the most guys together. I'll be sure to post here when I get the details worked out.

[Nexus]

2 hours ago, Will_K said:

Did we really have to wait until the 2nd half to get a "Dark Knight" reference?? 

The streak lives!

[PhilipB2k17]

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

seems like you are paying attention to new art - what art is tremendous that you see sitting there and not selling, but that is also a good price?  maybe we are missing out- please point some out. I know Felix reps some great artists, but he sells out all the time. so which artists/series are you noticing as being ignored? Genuinely interested.

Ignored isn't the right word, I don't think. Felix does a great job promoting his guys, but even some good stuff from lesser known or less popular books is still available. 

And I see this repeated on most art broker sites. 

I see a lot of gems that aren't picked up yet. So, I'm not going to tell people about them before I have a chance to get some of them! ;-)

 

[Nexus]

21 hours ago, JadeGiant said:

I have enjoyed the podcast so far and appreciate Jim’s transparency and willingness to address Felix’s questions on a variety of topics.

Believe me, I appreciated it, too. Some answers are to be expected-- for example, I wouldn't expect anything less than a bullish market outlook from dealers-- but some were unexpected. On top of what's already been mentioned, was Jim saying that comic art is his favorite of all his collections, and that he values it higher than comics. It was almost like admitting he had a favorite kid in his family.

I do hope we get to do part 2 down the line, after the Kirby situation has (hopefully) been resolved.

[Bronty]

Another great episode Felix!    I remember when this podcast was just a twinkle in your eye and it's now taking on a life of its own!   Well done.   Jim was interesting to listen to.   

His lack of knowledge on some topics was surprising (only slightly aware of Ewert, claims he doesn't know how to grade) and contrasted the depth of thought on other topics like the various moral dilemmas and non-dilemmas associated with auctions .   

The overall sense was of someone who was focussed on growing the business and only knowing what he needs to know and delegating the rest.   Which is no doubt part of his success.  

And all the while, another aspect of the conversation was collector to collector like the rest of us.    Kudos Felix!