New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!) 6 6

[Nexus]

17 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I already see a speculative bubble on new art, as the stuff from hot books goes fastest. There is a ton of great new art from books that are not the hot new thing that just sits there. Nobody has "nostalgia" for art from a comic that came out two months ago from a relatively new artist.

There's always some degree of speculation going on in the hobby, no matter the era. Just in terms of what I sell, though, if there is a bubble, it's not a big one. The vast majority of pages I sell are under $500. I sell to a wide range of collectors. There aren't a small number who are hoarding the majority of the art...it's all fairly spread out.

In recent years, the real speculation in modern art went hand-in-hand with the speculation in modern books. For independent books, that would be around 2011-20113, during the second Image boom. Anything new was hot, and a percentage of those who speculated on the books, speculated on the art. That market has been, predictably, diminished greatly. I became a rep in 2014, after that market had already gone away.

So, from what I see now, anyone who's buying the art, is simply a fan of the book it's from. The incentive to speculate has been largely removed. Again, not to say that isn't going on still, to a lesser degree. But, as an example, I've sold over 50 complete issues over the last couple of years. There are some who believe that the reason a complete issue sells, is because the buyer is hoping to profit by breaking the book up himself. Well, to the best of my knowledge, not a single one of those issues has been broken up yet. I do believe they have gone to buyers who are fans/collectors, first. And I believe that major speculators tend to avoid me, anyway. I've never made it a secret that I think speculators are bad for the hobby.

Of course, we'll eventually see the art re-enter the market. Some will do better, some will do worse. Or, to put it another way, no one's going to get rich, but no one's going broke, either. This art is still at a level where the average collector can get a few pieces, and not have to think too much about how it might affect his/her life.

[vodou]

Felix, your market as you describe it is very healthy - distribution is low and wide. People are buying within their means (I suspect) and thus will not need to dump some sort of hoard at an inopportune time. They may not ever need to sell or even count the art as an asset, just a 'thing' from a comic they dug in 2016. This all means, from a serious collector's perspective, that if you see something you like you should get it now. But not because it will only be more expensive later. It may simply not be on the market any time soon or at all in your lifetime. A funny thing to write, that, but I think this could be similar to a lot of the art sold in the 1970s-80s, where some pretty good chunks are still MIA because they're either blackholed with folks that haven't "moved on" (swapped hobbies or three dees) yet and/or don't realize the stuff is worth (much) more than what they paid.

As you note though not all art bought in even those conditions will do well. Some of the offbeat 80s stuff I've followed lately on eBay and HA has gone pretty cheap, less than $100 per piece in many, many cases. This would be material from 70s Charlton and Gold Key and 80s indies that were pretty hot then but didn't hang around for the long haul (TMNT being the example that did). The way some of these are being marketed, it's pretty clear to me that the art is coming out of original owner (found it in the back of a closet) hands, not serious hobbyists like everybody on this board. As a buyer, this is a picker's paradise (for one's own collection, unflippable imo though) but the seller's after 30+ years  holding aren't really cashing in except maybe for dinner out with a ladyfriend?

[Mighty Hal]

On 8/10/2017 at 11:19 AM, gumbydarnit said:

The more that I learn from these seasoned collectors, the more I feel it's time for me to slow my roll. I don't want to get caught up in "the prices are only going up" mentality to justify spending more on a piece than I think it's really worth.

Not predicting a crash, bubble or a correction. I'm just saying, you might want to watch your step... it's awfully smoky in here and you don't want to hit your head on a mirror.

I agree, the podcasts have been a pleasure, but little time has been spent truly discussing a "humble collection". Even the half a podcast directed towards Mr. Johnson's collection didn't spend much time on what he'd purchased. A good portion of the 'cast was about the artist and his art.

Most of the comic art out there is in the three and low four figure range. Not nearly as much smoke in those rooms, in my opinion, and I hunt there with a light heart. If your wallet is thicker, my congratulations. ? I can see why you'd want to tread lightly.

[JadeGiant]

9 hours ago, Nexus said:

Believe me, I appreciated it, too. Some answers are to be expected-- for example, I wouldn't expect anything less than a bullish market outlook from dealers-- but some were unexpected. On top of what's already been mentioned, was Jim saying that comic art is his favorite of all his collections, and that he values it higher than comics. It was almost like admitting he had a favorite kid in his family.

I do hope we get to do part 2 down the line, after the Kirby situation has (hopefully) been resolved.

Yep, found that interesting as well. I am really anxious to hear the details behind the Kirby deal. Good stuff Felix - already anxious to hear what you have cooked up for the next podcast

[JadeGiant]

20 hours ago, Nexus said:

 

I'm actually hoping to put something together, most likely at a con, where listeners can meet some of the guys who have been on the show. It's just a matter of picking a con where I can get the most guys together. I'll be sure to post here when I get the details worked out.

This is a great idea

[The Voord]

Been playing catch-up on the podcasts this past week (a commendable project, so well done, Felix, and keep up the good work).  Even took a listen to the Gene P interview, which I actually quite enjoyed and found very interesting.  In the past I've found these type of (financial) discussions on this forum to be a bit cold and clinical, but the conversational nature of the podcast worked a lot better for me.

[John E.]

I liked the Jim Halperin interview, but I really liked the "roundtable" in the second half. I liked that each guest answered two of the same questions and each gave different answers, and without losing any humor. It was quick and to the point. I like the other round tables too, but those easily go off topic.

[Panelfan1]

5 hours ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

I liked the Jim Halperin interview, but I really liked the "roundtable" in the second half. I liked that each guest answered two of the same questions and each gave different answers, and without losing any humor. It was quick and to the point. I like the other round tables too, but those easily go off topic.

I'll second that - regarding the roundtable discussions.

[gumbydarnit]

You know the best thing about the podcast is the feel you get for the guests' personality. It is hard to get that to come through by reading their posts.

 

I for one like the more free flowing coversations that ramble along, Felix will get them back on topic if it drifts too far. On Scott Free's interview Felix did a good job getting Scott back on topic while also giving him room to drift into his fun tales that might not be told if it was a tighter format.

[PhilipB2k17]

On 8/11/2017 at 1:25 PM, Nexus said:

There's always some degree of speculation going on in the hobby, no matter the era. Just in terms of what I sell, though, if there is a bubble, it's not a big one. The vast majority of pages I sell are under $500. I sell to a wide range of collectors. There aren't a small number who are hoarding the majority of the art...it's all fairly spread out.

In recent years, the real speculation in modern art went hand-in-hand with the speculation in modern books. For independent books, that would be around 2011-20113, during the second Image boom. Anything new was hot, and a percentage of those who speculated on the books, speculated on the art. That market has been, predictably, diminished greatly. I became a rep in 2014, after that market had already gone away.

So, from what I see now, anyone who's buying the art, is simply a fan of the book it's from. The incentive to speculate has been largely removed. Again, not to say that isn't going on still, to a lesser degree. But, as an example, I've sold over 50 complete issues over the last couple of years. There are some who believe that the reason a complete issue sells, is because the buyer is hoping to profit by breaking the book up himself. Well, to the best of my knowledge, not a single one of those issues has been broken up yet. I do believe they have gone to buyers who are fans/collectors, first. And I believe that major speculators tend to avoid me, anyway. I've never made it a secret that I think speculators are bad for the hobby.

Of course, we'll eventually see the art re-enter the market. Some will do better, some will do worse. Or, to put it another way, no one's going to get rich, but no one's going broke, either. This art is still at a level where the average collector can get a few pieces, and not have to think too much about how it might affect his/her life.

Hey Felix, I did not mean to suggest that the collectors buying this art do not like and enjoy it. I think the hotness of a book actually increases exposure to that books art and artist, so that those pages sell out fast. That's somewhat understandable, but a lot of great art is sitting around because it lacks the exposure of a hot selling title. There is a direct correlation between the hotness of a book (an independent one, not an established superhero book from the Big Two, which have their own dynamics), and its art sales. 

This goes to the whole debate about whether people buy the art for its own aethestic value, or as an investment. I think it's a combination. People will buy NEW art on spec, to a great extent. But, the new art they do buy will be pieces that they also like and enjoy. New art has no market established for it yet, aside from what the brokers or the artists sell it for. I have not seen any of the hot book pages you've sold, for example, go up to be flipped yet. So, people are holding onto them. But, I expect we will start seeing that in 6 months to a year.

 

[SquareChaos]

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Hey Felix, I did not mean to suggest that the collectors buying this art do not like and enjoy it. I think the hotness of a book actually increases exposure to that books art and artist, so that those pages sell out fast. That's somewhat understandable, but a lot of great art is sitting around because it lacks the exposure of a hot selling title. There is a direct correlation between the hotness of a book (an independent one, not an established superhero book from the Big Two, which have their own dynamics), and its art sales. 

This goes to the whole debate about whether people buy the art for its own aethestic value, or as an investment. I think it's a combination. People will buy NEW art on spec, to a great extent. But, the new art they do buy will be pieces that they also like and enjoy. New art has no market established for it yet, aside from what the brokers or the artists sell it for. I have not seen any of the hot book pages you've sold, for example, go up to be flipped yet. So, people are holding onto them. But, I expect we will start seeing that in 6 months to a year.

 

I've said this before, but it still seems to break true so I guess it is worth repeating. The art from these modern Indie books that come out of the gate red hot almost always cools off. Their aspirations typically rise and fall right alongside the copies of the actual printed comic - a patient collector may often get a second, cheaper bite at the apple on just about any page outside of the absolute A pages. There are a lot of examples out there... Chew, Peter Panzerfaust, Manhattan Projects, the list could continue. 

For what it is worth, I think the vast majority of modern indie comic art must be purchased out of love, I just can't see a future in which these almost universally short running series ever truly appreciate in a worthwhile fashion unless the artist in question goes on to become a giant in the field... and even if that happens, my guess is their inevitable Spider-man, Batman, or Superman pages will pull a far larger audience.

 

If you spend what you can afford, and buy what you love, then you will never be disappointed - I wish other areas of life were that simple and pure.

 

[Nexus]

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Hey Felix, I did not mean to suggest that the collectors buying this art do not like and enjoy it. I think the hotness of a book actually increases exposure to that books art and artist, so that those pages sell out fast. That's somewhat understandable, but a lot of great art is sitting around because it lacks the exposure of a hot selling title. There is a direct correlation between the hotness of a book (an independent one, not an established superhero book from the Big Two, which have their own dynamics), and its art sales.

Yes, without a doubt, the hotness of a book is key to its art sales. A direct correlation is expected. But we've seen many, many hot indie titles since 2011/12 (picking this most current Image era when modern comic speculation ramped up again while at the same time, people have become aware of OA) where the art didn't sell nearly so well. So exposure via promotion is key, as well.

Big Two art, as you note, has its own set of rules. Generally, Big Two is character driven, indie is creator-driven. Spidey art, for example, sells itself. GOD COUNTRY art, otoh, does not. Unknown creators. Limited series. Usually, those are two major strikes. But if readers respond to the story, and the art is good, then chances of the art selling are greatly improved. Still, this was totally unexpected:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=579&Mag=GOD+COUNTRY&From=Title

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

This goes to the whole debate about whether people buy the art for its own aethestic value, or as an investment. I think it's a combination. People will buy NEW art on spec, to a great extent. But, the new art they do buy will be pieces that they also like and enjoy. New art has no market established for it yet, aside from what the brokers or the artists sell it for. I have not seen any of the hot book pages you've sold, for example, go up to be flipped yet. So, people are holding onto them. But, I expect we will start seeing that in 6 months to a year.

Yes, like I said, it's inevitable that the art will re-enter the marketplace at some point. The question is how much and how soon?

Nick Pitarra has drawn over 500 pages of THE MANHATTAN PROJECTS. About 95% of the pages are out there. The book is on hiatus now (although it will be back), so interest is at a low point. Not a great time to sell. But also when you would normally see owners lose interest and dump. Outside of a few random pages, we haven't seen much come out.

Maybe a flood of pages will hit at some point. But what I've seen since I've become a rep is that many of our assumptions about collectors were formed by what we've observed here, on CAF, amongst collecting acquaintances. The behavior becomes predictable. However, there are those out there who aren't as actively involved as us, who just buy some pieces for seemingly the hell of it. I don't think investment enters much into the equation at all. Besides buying art from indie limited series that most around here wouldn't touch (both because they don't read new books and because of the limited investment potential), they also get commissions. Which everyone here knows has probably, on average, the worst ROI in the hobby. But it doesn't matter, we sell a ton of commissions, too. And at pretty healthy rates, too.

I do agree that most buyers will buy based on some combination of aesthetic value and investment. But, at least for now, it does seem that many of the people who've been buying from me are placing less of an emphasis on investment. Which is a welcome surprise.

[Nexus]

4 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

I've said this before, but it still seems to break true so I guess it is worth repeating. The art from these modern Indie books that come out of the gate red hot almost always cools off. Their aspirations typically rise and fall right alongside the copies of the actual printed comic - a patient collector may often get a second, cheaper bite at the apple on just about any page outside of the absolute A pages. There are a lot of examples out there... Chew, Peter Panzerfaust, Manhattan Projects, the list could continue. 

For what it is worth, I think the vast majority of modern indie comic art must be purchased out of love, I just can't see a future in which these almost universally short running series ever truly appreciate in a worthwhile fashion unless the artist in question goes on to become a giant in the field... and even if that happens, my guess is their inevitable Spider-man, Batman, or Superman pages will pull a far larger audience.

 

If you spend what you can afford, and buy what you love, then you will never be disappointed - I wish other areas of life were that simple and pure.

 

What's past is prologue. Indeed, anything hot will cool eventually. Even WALKING DEAD.

For me, it's less about value appreciation, than just getting the chance to own. So back to past is prologue...I'm a huge NEXUS fan. There are pieces I'd LOVE to have in my collection. But they're buried in black hole collections. Owners won't sell. The market for NEXUS art isn't "hot" (don't know that it ever was), but not only is it not cheap, it's also simply not available. Some of these guys have held onto this art for 30 years.

I don't expect NEXUS art to have a resurgence. I don't expect values to go higher. I expect that anything I pay, will be money thrown down a hole. But I don't care. I just want more for my collection.

So for me, for any art, especially modern art, I care more about the chance to own, than appreciation.

[PhilipB2k17]

34 minutes ago, Nexus said:

What's past is prologue. Indeed, anything hot will cool eventually. Even WALKING DEAD.

For me, it's less about value appreciation, than just getting the chance to own. So back to past is prologue...I'm a huge NEXUS fan. There are pieces I'd LOVE to have in my collection. But they're buried in black hole collections. Owners won't sell. The market for NEXUS art isn't "hot" (don't know that it ever was), but not only is it not cheap, it's also simply not available. Some of these guys have held onto this art for 30 years.

I don't expect NEXUS art to have a resurgence. I don't expect values to go higher. I expect that anything I pay, will be money thrown down a hole. But I don't care. I just want more for my collection.

So for me, for any art, especially modern art, I care more about the chance to own, than appreciation.

Nexus does have the "Steve Rude" factor going for it, however. And I'm with you on Nexus art, which I assume means "Steve Rude" art. 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

Yes, without a doubt, the hotness of a book is key to its art sales. A direct correlation is expected. But we've seen many, many hot indie titles since 2011/12 (picking this most current Image era when modern comic speculation ramped up again while at the same time, people have become aware of OA) where the art didn't sell nearly so well. So exposure via promotion is key, as well.

Big Two art, as you note, has its own set of rules. Generally, Big Two is character driven, indie is creator-driven. Spidey art, for example, sells itself. GOD COUNTRY art, otoh, does not. Unknown creators. Limited series. Usually, those are two major strikes. But if readers respond to the story, and the art is good, then chances of the art selling are greatly improved. Still, this was totally unexpected:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=579&Mag=GOD+COUNTRY&From=Title

Yes, like I said, it's inevitable that the art will re-enter the marketplace at some point. The question is how much and how soon?

Nick Pitarra has drawn over 500 pages of THE MANHATTAN PROJECTS. About 95% of the pages are out there. The book is on hiatus now (although it will be back), so interest is at a low point. Not a great time to sell. But also when you would normally see owners lose interest and dump. Outside of a few random pages, we haven't seen much come out.

Maybe a flood of pages will hit at some point. But what I've seen since I've become a rep is that many of our assumptions about collectors were formed by what we've observed here, on CAF, amongst collecting acquaintances. The behavior becomes predictable. However, there are those out there who aren't as actively involved as us, who just buy some pieces for seemingly the hell of it. I don't think investment enters much into the equation at all. Besides buying art from indie limited series that most around here wouldn't touch (both because they don't read new books and because of the limited investment potential), they also get commissions. Which everyone here knows has probably, on average, the worst ROI in the hobby. But it doesn't matter, we sell a ton of commissions, too. And at pretty healthy rates, too.

I do agree that most buyers will buy based on some combination of aesthetic value and investment. But, at least for now, it does seem that many of the people who've been buying from me are placing less of an emphasis on investment. Which is a welcome surprise.

I agree with you on the exposure part. People have to know the book and the art exists to see it and fall in love with it. 

[JadeGiant]

3 hours ago, Nexus said:

 

... what I've seen since I've become a rep is that many of our assumptions about collectors were formed by what we've observed here, on CAF, amongst collecting acquaintances. The behavior becomes predictable. However, there are those out there who aren't as actively involved as us, who just buy some pieces for seemingly the hell of it. I don't think investment enters much into the equation at all.

The more I talk to people outside of forums, the more I am of this same opinion. While the few web forums that exist for comic art collecting are great sources of information and provide great conversation, they are a small slice of the overall hobby/market. I think the conversations tend to create a perspective that this is how it is but the reality is that there are a lot of collectors (casual to serious) out there that hold different opinions and perspective. This forum tends to have a very heavy investment flavor but I don't get that nearly as much when talking to the "offline" collectors I run into at shows, shops, etc. 

[John E.]

1 hour ago, JadeGiant said:

The more I talk to people outside of forums, the more I am of this same opinion. While the few web forums that exist for comic art collecting are great sources of information and provide great conversation, they are a small slice of the overall hobby/market. I think the conversations tend to create a perspective that this is how it is but the reality is that there are a lot of collectors (casual to serious) out there that hold different opinions and perspective. This forum tends to have a very heavy investment flavor but I don't get that nearly as much when talking to the "offline" collectors I run into at shows, shops, etc. 

I've long ago figured this out. A lot of what is said here doesn't always reflect what I see and hear at cons or the views among my collector friends that don't participate on these boards. This isn't to say that I don't find this forum valuable, useful, or influential; it's just a different perspective on the hobby, but not the only perspective. 

[suspense39]

Thanks Felix

just got through The first 1/2. Nice questioning! Now on to the round table part. 

 

[npasto]

Haven't had a chance to listen to this episode yet, but the discussion here is interesting. I'm not an experienced OA collector and I don't claim to be knowledgeable about the market, but even from my limited experience it seems clear that taste is highly subjective. I started reading comics around 1992 when Image was the hot new thing. A lot of that stuff hasn't aged well, but it's what got me into comics. As I got a little older, I started reading the Dark Horse Legend titles like Madman, Sin City, and Hellboy. I took a long break from 1997-2010, but never really changed allegiances. I'm an indie guy. For me, Marvel/DC stuff never held much appeal. I can appreciate the historical significance and I think some of the art is striking, but it doesn't hold a special place in my heart. If anything, I'm turned off by how repetitive all the superhero stuff is. It's largely been the same characters for 50-60 years. How many Captain America, Thor, and Batman stories does the world really need? Well, apparently the answer is infinite, because titles from the big two still absolutely dominate the monthly sales charts, but I digress...

 

When I go to the comic store, I go straight to the indie section. I think that's where most of the exciting work is being done today. A page from Southern Bastards, Descender, or Kill or Be Killed would appeal to me more than a Spider-Man page from a classic artist. I'm not saying that I think it's worth more, only that it's more appealing to me. I've bought a few pages from Felix (all from the series Extremity) because I liked the book and the artist. I wouldn't really call it speculating. I didn't buy those pages because I plan to sell them for a fat profit. I just liked the book and the prices were doable. Most of what I'm looking to buy as a collector is new stuff because that's what I'm reading every week. Is it going to rise in value? Anything is possible. Look at Hellboy art. If you get lucky and get in on the ground floor with a creator or character who goes on to big things, it can pay dividends. If HBO buys the rights to Descender and turns it into a TV series then all of a sudden the art from the "limited series with characters nobody has ever heard of" could be worth a lot, and could perhaps even be made more valuable by the fact that it's limited (how many Spider-Man pages exist vs. Watchmen pages, for example?). That's not why I buy though. I buy it because I like the material, and if it goes up in value then that's just an added bonus. As long as you're buying within your means, I think this approach is fine. If you're treating it like a stock market then that's also fine if that's your MO. Different strokes for different folks. 

The industry is dominated by the Marvel/DC superhero stuff and that might always be the case, but there's other interesting work out there and you never know where the next great series, creator, or character might come from.

[MOStateSuperman]

I have to say, I think the latest episode is the best. I found the Halperin interview very interesting, and the roundtables are always good.