New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
6 6

1,427 posts in this topic

2,245 posts
2 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

Not that facebook is the be-all-end all for comic collectors, but from what I've seen / read in various facebook groups, most modern collectors are pretty "meh" about DRK.

now if those are the same people that in 15 years (assuming they're 18-22 now) are going to be diving into DKR pages at 35k+, that i can't answer.

The only way I can look at it is from my own chair.  I revere GSXM 1 and that whole run through Byrne, it created the X-Men team that I love.  It started 2 years before I was born.  And if it was in my budget, sure I'd love to have a page from it.  But it's further down the list than the stuff I grew up reading, or have read as an adult and enjoy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
6 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

I don't disagree. My point was that later runs MAY become as valuable, or close to as valuable. We just don't know yet. In any case, I do think it's not impossible that DKR doesn't retain its lofty value in 20 years. There's a diference between the first run of a character by the artist who co-created it (i.e. Ditko on Spider-Man) and a later artist who did a revolutionary new version of an old character. Why isn't Neal Adams Batman stuff from the late 60s to early 70's as revered as DKR? It was also, in a sense, revolutionary for its time. But, even the "dark, gritty" Batman part of TDKR is more of a reach back to Batman's earliest days than truly innovative. The art style, and storyline were revolutionary, but that aspect of Batman wasn't really "new." Batman as a character came out of the pulp tradition, which had noir undertones, and was much darker.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,304 posts

Figured this interview would happen eventually. As a collector whose primary focus is BA-MA Batman(I love a good Neal Adams piece just as much as a good Jock) it has been interesting watching the prices of very new stuff skyrocket. It's great and I love it, but it makes a lot of the older stuff, that is much more significant/character defining look like a bargain. When I am deciding between two pieces, all things being equal I always opt for the more vintage piece. I am interested to see what happens to the market over the next decade or so. I expect some stuff to crater(White Knight) while other to do well.

As far as anything being the next Dark Knight, impossible. If we are specifically referring to Batman, the character has been completely defined already. You can tell great stories, but they aren't going to change the character.Heck,  Joker has actually been over-defined. If we are talking about genre defining, there is a possibility something will come along, but I don't know if the base is big enough for it to even occur. The game changers "storytelling" today is on youtube, not sequential art.

Finally I am glad you brought up Leslie Hung as the "new" era. The 40+ male American comic book fans are a very insular bunch. while the American market may never produce another DKR, the Japanese manga creators appear to create a new one every decade. As the Mangaka influence spreads across the world, you may very well be right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44,436 posts
29 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Somewhat true, except that it's not just about nostalgia.  DKR and Watchmen ushered in a whole new approach to comic book storytelling - grim n'gritty, comics as serious, even intellectual fare.  It literally revolutionized everything that has come after.  Younger folks like Kyle may have fonder memories over time of Court of Owls, but, it will never be held in the same regard by collectors in terms of game-changing, genre and character-defining importance. 

And, frankly, I don't think that will change even as the Gen Xers age out, as people in the hobby retain a shared sense of history and importance.  It's why Action #1s and AF #15s, and T-206 Honus Wagners and '52 Topps Mantles in the baseball card hobby, retain their desirability even though almost no one collecting today was around when those came out.  People don't buy and revere those because of childhood nostalgia.  Instead, anyone who becomes a serious comic collector soon learns about those touchstone books like Action #1, AF #15, Hulk #181, DKR, etc. from before their time that are required to be held in high value and esteem, even if it may not be their own personal bag.   

You've struck upon exactly what made DKR and Watchmen and a few others from that era groundbreaking. It wasn't the characters, or even the stories, it was how the stories were told and how the characters themselves were transformed. 

That transformation of character and writing seeped into the very fabric of comics and altered the path of the last 30+ years in a way that hadn't been felt since. 

That could happen again, but it has nothing to with "Batman" per se. Looking for the "Next-DKR" isn't something I'd dissuade anyone from doing. They're looking for something amazing, fresh, and course-altering for the world of comics. They might just miss it if they are looking at every subsequent Batman story arc for it, when it most likely will be happening somewhere completely unexpected. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,059 posts

hi Felix,

another very enjoyable podcast. the bonus podcast with Wendy was fun, and as a woman comic fan - it's great to hear that point of view.

in your interview with her you said you are proud of having a lot of female customers. wondering about that. are they one off buyers who want an example, or are they actual collectors who have or are building a collection?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,126 posts

while I agree that DKR is historically important, it may not be personally important to some buyers.  similar to the argument that some make around Kirby art and the longevity of that pricing.

as a batman buyer, I personally don't love seeing skyrocketing prices.  i don't believe that skyrocketing prices for this character are insulated to the modern capullo and sgm markets and have seen prices for what i enjoy jump over the years partially influenced with whats going on with these prices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

You've struck upon exactly what made DKR and Watchmen and a few others from that era groundbreaking. It wasn't the characters, or even the stories, it was how the stories were told and how the characters themselves were transformed. 

That transformation of character and writing seeped into the very fabric of comics and altered the path of the last 30+ years in a way that hadn't been felt since. 

That could happen again, but it has nothing to with "Batman" per se. Looking for the "Next-DKR" isn't something I'd dissuade anyone from doing. They're looking for something amazing, fresh, and course-altering for the world of comics. They might just miss it if they are looking at every subsequent Batman story arc for it, when it most likely will be happening somewhere completely unexpected. 

It was revolutionary....for superhero comics being put out by the Big Two. Underground’s and independents (and non US Comics, especially out of Britain from sources like 2000 a.d. and Manga) had been doing this for years. The gritty, dark, V for Vendetta, to take one example, was published originally in Warrior from 1982 to 1985. TDKR came out in 1986  

I’m waiting for the Batman storyline where he’s starting to mentally degenerate thanks to all of the concussions he’s suffered and develops CTE. 

 

Edited by PhilipB2k17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25,945 posts
1 hour ago, eewwnuk said:

while I agree that DKR is historically important, it may not be personally important to some buyers.  similar to the argument that some make around Kirby art and the longevity of that pricing.

 

Kirby is the #1 comic book artist of all time... I view it as a lock to retain value, personally.    2c

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44,436 posts
1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It was revolutionary....for superhero comics being put out by the Big Two. Underground’s and independents (and non US Comics, especially out of Britain from sources like 2000 a.d. and Manga) had been doing this for years. The gritty, dark, V for Vendetta, to take one example, was published originally in Warrior from 1982 to 1985. TDKR came out in 1986  

I’m waiting for the Batman storyline where he’s starting to mentally degenerate thanks to all of the concussions he’s suffered and develops CTE. 

 

The fact that it was done by the Big Two, and to one of the most recognizable licensed characters in the history of the medium with such a long as established (expected) history of behavior, is what made it so revolutionary. 

Starting with a character that's dark and gritty from day one, while entertaining, doesn't alter the terra firma of the hobby the way taking an established icon and turning his world upside down does. 

 

Edited by comix4fun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
49 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

The fact that it was done by the Big Two, and to one of the most recognizable licensed characters in the history of the medium with such a long as established (expected) history of behavior, is what made it so revolutionary. 

Starting with a character that's dark and gritty from day one, while entertaining, doesn't alter the terra firma of the hobby the way taking an established icon and turning his world upside down does. 

 

But Batman was "dark and gritty from day one." I mean, Batman originally killed his enemies. He became more kid friendly as time went on, eventually becoming silly in the 60's.  And, this wasn't even the first time Batman had been made more "dark and gritty." This happened previously in the late 1960's.

Edited by PhilipB2k17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44,436 posts
1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

But Batman was "dark and gritty from day one." He became more kid friendly as time went on, eventually becoming silly in the 60's.  And, this wasn't even the first time Batman had been made more "dark and gritty." This happened previously in the late 1960's.

Even the darkest and grittiest Neal Adams, isn't on par with what happened in DKR.

The Neal Adams Batman was considered to be dark and gritty mostly because it was viewed in juxtaposition to the ultra-camp of the Adam West Batman. 

It was relatively standard comic fair otherwise. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
3 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Even the darkest and grittiest Neal Adams, isn't on par with what happened in DKR.

The Neal Adams Batman was considered to be dark and gritty mostly because it was viewed in juxtaposition to the ultra-camp of the Adam West Batman. 

It was relatively standard comic fair otherwise. 

 

But, go back and read that first year of Batman stories (which were really pulpy), and you see he was pretty much a noir badass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
9 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Even the darkest and grittiest Neal Adams, isn't on par with what happened in DKR.

The Neal Adams Batman was considered to be dark and gritty mostly because it was viewed in juxtaposition to the ultra-camp of the Adam West Batman. 

It was relatively standard comic fair otherwise. 

 

On a side note, I remember my elementary school library had a hardcover reprint book of the old Batman comics going all the way back to Detective 27. I remember reading all those early stories as a kid, and being fascinated by them. They were so different from the Batman TV show and Superfriends, etc that I was more familiar with. (I wasn't a Batman comic reader yet). It was dark, full of abnormal psychology (which I did not understand at the time), and weird. The Joker wasn't the jovial prankster he was when I knew him, he was a weird, crazy, murderous psychopath. (Which is what he is now, after going back to his roots).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44,436 posts
6 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

But, go back and read that first year of Batman stories (which were really pulpy), and you see he was pretty much a noir badass.

Well, there's that one year of batman.

Then there's the intervening 40+ years where the character became the ubiquitous licensing icon that he became, to then be deconstructed the way he was deconstructed in DKR. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
Just now, comix4fun said:

Well, there's that one year of batman.

Then there's the intervening 40+ years where the character became the ubiquitous licensing icon that he became, to then be deconstructed the way he was deconstructed in DKR. 

 

Well, sure. The very fact that he had 40 years plus of history to deconstruct is what made TDKR possible. Especially his relationship to Superman. Absent that long period, the impact of the story would have been very different. And, I wonder if it would have had nearly the impact if Superman were not involved at all, and it was just Batman vs Two-Face -- or Even the Joker. I don't think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,127 posts
3 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Well, there's that one year of batman.

Then there's the intervening 40+ years where the character became the ubiquitous licensing icon that he became, to then be deconstructed the way he was deconstructed in DKR. 

 

You also had Michael Uslan already planning a Dark Knight version of Batman in the late 70's when he was trying to get a new Batman film made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44,436 posts
1 minute ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

You also had Michael Uslan already planning a Dark Knight version of Batman in the late 70's when he was trying to get a new Batman film made.

You also had "SuperFolks" released in the mid-late 70's which is the blueprint for the deconstructed superhero. 

If you haven't read it, it's a novel not a comic, give it a try. 

It's Watchmen before Watchmen was Watchmen. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,578 posts
7 hours ago, delekkerste said:

But, none of these was the game-changer that DKR or the two Miller runs on Daredevil were.  Every great Batman run that has followed DKR and every great Daredevil run post-1986 has stood on the shoulders of what Miller did in the 1980s.  They may be great stories and great art, even arguably equal to or better in the eyes of a modern audience, but, they are simply NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER going to achieve the level of importance, simply because they came (much) further in those characters' development/lifecycle, because they owe so much to the earlier work, because the audience today is both smaller and older, etc. etc. etc.  That's just the reality of it.  There will never be another DKR when it comes to Batman.  There will never be another Daredevil run as widely revered as Miller's (heck, we had two in the last 15 years that absolutely rivalled Miller's in quality, but, that's just not enough anymore).

What the 1980s offered, big picture, was the chance for a confluence of underground and independent acceptance to take root inside The Big Two. This was a first and Miller only got to play with DD because it was a junk title after a few years of general abuse and neglect. That he ran with it, to his credit. What he did there opened the door at DC as they were losing market-share big time to Marvel and Miller had already proved himself with DD! You don't get that dynamic happening too often and inside the wider comic world that was now (but only recently -at the time) widely accepting of underground/indie publishing and that thinking entering and being accepted at The Big Two. Think of all the crazy experimental books that were published by Marvel and DC in the 80s and 90s, along with everything that Epic and Vertigo did and eventually became. Plenty of it came and went real fast (just look at the mountain of Epic titles lol), but some really good stuff worked and stuck around. All this...you had to have the 60s and 70s come right before, first.

To borrow from Malcolm Gladwell...there will not be a second Bill Gates. Or Steve Jobs (Woz, et al). Right place, right time, right person to do it! Compared to those guys, Zuckerberg and the rest of the CIA-financed information scrapers...ugh. Not even close on the scale of revolutionary. Everything since Gates, Jobs, etc and what we're talking about above is very much post-Modern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,497 posts
6 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

hi Felix,

another very enjoyable podcast. the bonus podcast with Wendy was fun, and as a woman comic fan - it's great to hear that point of view.

in your interview with her you said you are proud of having a lot of female customers. wondering about that. are they one off buyers who want an example, or are they actual collectors who have or are building a collection?

There are one-off buyers, but there are a good number of dedicated, serious collectors, too. Not "serious" in the way we may perceive here, but serious in terms of the modern art hobby and being active participants. Or, to put it another way, they're buy-complete-issues serious.

I'd like to have a female collector on the show sometime, definitely. The two that come to mind, though, are outside the US, so it will take some planning. I imagine it will happen at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44,436 posts
41 minutes ago, Nexus said:

There are one-off buyers, but there are a good number of dedicated, serious collectors, too. Not "serious" in the way we may perceive here, but serious in terms of the modern art hobby and being active participants. Or, to put it another way, they're buy-complete-issues serious.

I'd like to have a female collector on the show sometime, definitely. The two that come to mind, though, are outside the US, so it will take some planning. I imagine it will happen at some point.

I was interviewed for another podcast recently. 

It was a British-based podcast, so I don't think it violated the non-compete you made me sign. :wishluck:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
6 6