New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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39 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

...Batman is about as richly developed a character as you can get, that stories like these are just the comic equivalent of Chinese food. 

WTF Gene! Chinese food is the BEST! If anything, DKR/WM is Chinese food!!

Maybe you mean cheap/bad/fake Chinese food (a la Panda Express). I don't eat that garbage, anyway. I need to take you to better restaurants.

 

Edited by Nexus

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2 hours ago, Mr. Machismo said:

I’ve had a number of emails come through on CAF regarding the podcast. Interesting trend: they also were not impacted by DKR, and in some cases downright hated it. I’m surprised to hear this from some collectors, and it’s my belief there’s a reservation among younger collectors to express this as it will somehow discredit them in a hobby which is dominated by mature individuals.

When I first read DKR in my teens, I really did not like it. I felt it was far too copy-heavy and the news segments were incredibly boring and broke up the action. I view it very differently now having gone back to it, but it’s still not in my personal top 5. I have no nostalgia towards it, despite reading it early on.

Very interesting. I've mentioned my own opinion of DKR off-and-on since 2005 here...I've never read it even thought I was the perfect age, 14, when originally published. As in, I've owned it (in limited HC) for nearly 30 years) but have never been able to get through it, maybe the first ten or so pages and I'm just...bored. So it goes back on the shelf in lieu of all the other more interesting things I have stacking up to read and I tell myself I'll get to it another time, when I'm ready (because surely it's me that's got it wrong not everybody else, right?) This ritual happens about every five years, pull it down, give it another try, just cannot make it happen, and back up it goes. It's time to give it another try. (After I finish both Criminal deluxes and then the Sleeper deluxe...love that format for Brubaker/Phillips!)

And despite having written all of the above...I still wish I'd done what it would take to outbid $400k (pre-juice) for the #2 cover when it was on HA. Wonder how deeply committed the winner and other bidders over $300k were? I was certain that would be the first $700k America OA, not Crumb's Fritz #1...which I turned out to be wrong on but wow Fritz certainly deserved the honor too!

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3 minutes ago, vodou said:

And despite having written all of the above...I still wish I'd done what it would take to outbid $400k (pre-juice) for the #2 cover when it was on HA. Wonder how deeply committed the winner and other bidders over $300k were?

IIRC, one bidder hit the reserve of the DKR #2 cover.

I don't think it underperformed at all. To that point, there weren't really any comps at that level. Just individual outliers.

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33 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think the success of the Batman movie moved the needle more thanWatchmen or TDKR. Yes, the latter got some notoriety, but not like the mania that 1989 film created 

Too funny. The movie indeed came out in 1989. What year did they start development? 1986? Has to be a coincidence. Has to.

 

Edited by J.Sid

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I'm a lifelong Batman fan (going back 40 years plus) and I still think TDKR is the greatest story in the entire catalogue. And I love the art....perfect to capture the grittiness of the story, the effort to relaunch himself, the darkness of the time in Gotham.  I was totally blown away when it came out and still am every time I re-read it. So much so that I've picked up some of the proof pages as they've come up on HA over the years.  I'm a bit surprised by the criticism but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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10 minutes ago, Nexus said:

IIRC, one bidder hit the reserve of the DKR #2 cover.

I don't think it underperformed at all. To that point, there weren't really any comps at that level. Just individual outliers.

Sort of my memory too but it's been years now, which is decades in auction seasons (!) and anyway it would have taken me a full year to properly dispose of that quantity of other material w/o giving it away. I only found out about the piece coming up two months or so before the sale and there just wasn't the time. Unlike some of the oligarchs running amok in our little hobby, I do not keep ex-Binion's $10,000 bills stuffed in my front jeans pocket lol

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14 minutes ago, Nexus said:

IIRC, one bidder hit the reserve of the DKR #2 cover.

I don't think it underperformed at all. To that point, there weren't really any comps at that level. Just individual outliers.

What about the DKR splash that sold for almost the same amount?

To refresh memories... the DKR 3 (?) splash sold for about $450k and then not too long after the cover to #2 sold for about $480k.

So... when the cover sold, there was a good comp.    Earlier, when the splash sold, there wasn't.

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1 hour ago, eewwnuk said:

i think it all boils down to different strokes for different folks.  similar to how for a certain generation nsync > beatles. 

My point is that, even if you prefer 'NSYNC, once you're no longer a teenager, you at least know where they stand in the musical hierarchy vis-a-vis the Beatles, no matter how much time passes.  

53 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

If DKR was released today, how would it hold up? That’s my point. As generations die off, so will appreciation for the [original] classics. Current VS past readership is somewhat irrelevant in this discussion as previous generations pass away. We’re talking far ahead here.

20 years from now, a teenager sees HUSH* and DKR trades side-by-side on Amazon, they’re going to think DKR looks dated and is poorly drawn. They are not going to force their smartphone-attention spans to digest 100-200 pages because their grandfather told them how important DKR was.

Why would a teenager think that DKR is poorly drawn?  If you look past the VERY FEW modern artists that skew toward what passes for realistic over the past 25 years (a disproportionate amount of whom seem to have worked on Batman - Lee, Finch, Daniel, Mahnke, Capullo, etc.) - most of the other modern comic artists draw in a very stylized/not realistic manner.  For which, BTW, we can thank Miller, Sienkiewicz and a few others who pioneered the move away from the traditional/house styles at the Big Two starting in the early-to-mid '80s.  Why would a modern audience viewing this art think it's any worse in quality than all the other highly stylized art out there?  If they think DKR art is "poorly drawn", I'd hate to think of what they would think about all the other modern artists working today... :eek:   

Edited by delekkerste

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1 minute ago, Bronty said:

What about the DKR splash that sold for almost the same amount?

To refresh memories... the DKR 3 (?) splash sold for about $450k and then not too long after the cover to #2 sold for about $480k.

So... when the cover sold, there was a good comp.    Earlier, when the splash sold, there wasn't.

I didn't consider it a comp. Neither did most other DKR collectors. If the splash sale was a comp, then ASM #328 that sold for $657K was a comp for other McSpidey covers. It wasn't.

Outliers, both!!

 

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43 minutes ago, Nexus said:

WTF Gene! Chinese food is the BEST! If anything, DKR/WM is Chinese food!!

Maybe you mean cheap/bad/fake Chinese food (a la Panda Express). I don't eat that garbage, anyway. I need to take you to better restaurants.

I love Chinese food!  My analogy was more a reference to Chinese food's reputation of tasting great, but, you're left feeling hungry again soon after.  That's what I think of most superhero comics from the Big Two in the modern era - a lot of these stories are fun to read, but, like (Panda Express) Chinese food, they don't stay with you for very long.  They're disposable entertainment.  The most important & enduring stories featuring these decades-old characters have almost all already been told.  It really takes something super special (like what Brubaker did on Cap) to produce something that has not only the entertainment qualities, but the relevance and importance on a par with the older classics.  2c   

Edited by delekkerste

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Just now, Nexus said:

I didn't consider it a comp. Neither did most other DKR collectors. If the splash sale was a comp, then ASM #328 that sold for $657K was a comp for other McSpidey covers. It wasn't.

Outliers, both!!

 

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh ...........      I get your point...   the splash was an outlier...    but it did set some expectations rightly or wrongly for the #2 cover which IMO were met.       

You know the DKR market better than I ever will but I thought that 400-500k range was right on point based on past history (including the splash sale!).

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Just now, Bronty said:

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh ...........      I get your point...   the splash was an outlier...    but it did set some expectations rightly or wrongly for the #2 cover which IMO were met.       

You know the DKR market better than I ever will but I thought that 400-500k range was right on point based on past history (including the splash sale!).

Well, there was a reason they put a reserve on the cover. Without the reserve, it doesn't hit that number.

Point being, I think everyone understood that the splash was an outlier. If they (consignor, HA) were that confident the market was up there, they wouldn't have used a reserve. The right decision for them, as it turned out.

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Stop making sense.    :kidaround:

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26 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

 

20 years from now, a teenager sees HUSH* and DKR trades side-by-side on Amazon, they’re going to think DKR looks dated and is poorly drawn. They are not going to force their smartphone-attention spans to digest 100-200 pages because their grandfather told them how important DKR was.

 

They are also going to think Hush looks dated and poorly drawn...  !     

 

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1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Thanks, Scott. The further ahead we go, the more we’ll see “classics” change, I think. And to define my usage of classic, I mean memorable stories which are considered mandatory reads as X fan. The stories that continually hit top 10 lists and are referred by active-reader friends.

Yes, DKR is absolutely a classic to most of us, but to many younger readers it’s not. I don’t share this sentiment, but it can be viewed as just another Batman story which leans too heavy on copy, has terrible art (DKR Gallery edition sits on my coffee table and routinely gets scolded for “poor” artwork by guests), and is a little too goofy and dated. 

Long [long-] term, I see a story like HUSH surpassing DKR, and I’m not saying that because Scott is here. It reaches a far greater audience, showcases a wide gallery of villains, has tight and dynamic art that isn’t seen as “scribbly” or bad — but rather generally appealing and familiar — and reads just as well today as it did in its release because it doesn’t rely on issues of the day to drive it. It’s much farther reaching in terms of its appeal, despite having a weaker story than DKR. I believe the same for Court. 

Problem is you mention to the non comic book reader about Hush and they dont know what you are talking about. After DKR and Watchment came out many comic book readers would shared them with their friends and classmates even in college. Many people I knew in college didn’t read comic books either know of DKN and Watchmen or had read them. I don’t see the sharing of Hush outside of the comic book community.

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38 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Why would a teenager think that DKR is poorly drawn? 

I’d preface by saying that I think that Dark Knight Returns is absolutely the better written story than Hush.  Miller and DKR actually had something to say about society and the human condition whereas Hush just felt like another comic with a large cast of characters.

But as far as the art goes, I have to agree with Kyle. Notwithstanding the fact that 80s Frank Miller art sells for big money, I’ve always felt that Miller’s art prior to Sin City was rough and unfinished and that he should have spent more time on it. 

Having said that, it can be argued that that rough quality works for the Dark Knight Returns in the same may that the amateurish biro pen drawn style works for Maus.

But more importantly, I think that as long as a story grabs you in the first few pages, the reader accepts the art style for what it is and gets immersed.  And to that end Dark Knight Rises is easily the superior, more engaging story. 

I would hazard a guess that 20 years from now more newer reader will be buying trades and deluxe editions of Dark Knight Returns than Hush.  But will they pay the 1.5 to 2 million dollars that would likely be asking price for 448 splash and it’s like by that time. I’d think unlikely without the first hand experience of having grown up in the 1980s.

Edited by Skizz

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1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

If DKR was released today, how would it hold up? That’s my point. As generations die off, so will appreciation for the [original] classics. Current VS past readership is somewhat irrelevant in this discussion as previous generations pass away. We’re talking far ahead here.

I don’t believe the generations to come are going to appreciate something for its cultural significance as it’s been stated. Being much younger, what I see is rapidly increasing apathy in that regard, on all fronts.

20 years from now, a teenager sees HUSH* and DKR trades side-by-side on Amazon, they’re going to think DKR looks dated and is poorly drawn. They are not going to force their smartphone-attention spans to digest 100-200 pages because their grandfather told them how important DKR was.

*I’m using HUSH as a general example here of a comic DC/Top 10 lists will continually push for the foreseeable future, and acknowledge DKR is the superior comic, though not in terms of my personal tastes. And yes, HUSH may very will hit the curb side for not firing as well on story as it could have, but I believe DKR will become irrelevant first strictly on apathy towards classics. 

If there was not DKR and Watchmen then many of the books today like Husk would never had been created. They are two different periods in time.

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From a DKR plot/story standpoint alone, I'm too close to it to judge it harshly.  I loved it when it came out because it was so well conceived and different from anything else I'd seen relating to Batman (the older, retired Batman thing/final confrontation with Joker/girl Robin and final legacy and  just blew my mind).  But art wise, I don't think Miller's work was "poorly drawn", I just think a lot of it was ugly as h e l l.   Especially in black and white (Miller wanted so much of it to be carries by the color).  I know for me that even though I've always wanted a DKR piece in my collection, some of the black and white stuff is somewhat less inviting to own as a stand alone piece (especially with added burden of price).  The ugly art seems somehow appropriate to the story, but I can see why that alone might be a barrier to some.  Hard to appreciate the art (for some) without the context of the story, and hard to appreciate the story (for some) when you can't get past the art.  I think both are classic and will stand the test of time, but it's easy to understand why it might not be 100% universal for all.

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1 minute ago, stinkininkin said:

From a DKR plot/story standpoint alone, I'm too close to it to judge it harshly.  I loved it when it came out because it was so well conceived and different from anything else I'd seen relating to Batman (the older, retired Batman thing/final confrontation with Joker/girl Robin and final legacy and  just blew my mind).  But art wise, I don't think Miller's work was "poorly drawn", I just think a lot of it was ugly as h e l l.   Especially in black and white (Miller wanted so much of it to be carries by the color).  I know for me that even though I've always wanted a DKR piece in my collection, some of the black and white stuff is somewhat less inviting to own as a stand alone piece (especially with added burden of price).  The ugly art seems somehow appropriate to the story, but I can see why that alone might be a barrier to some.  Hard to appreciate the art (for some) without the context of the story, and hard to appreciate the story (for some) when you can't get past the art.  I think both are classic and will stand the test of time, but it's easy to understand why it might not be 100% universal for all.

IMO, a big difference between Miller/Janson and Miller/Miller on DKR. The former...well, I can understand why they stopped working together for 30 years. The latter, though, is some of my all-time favorite Miller art.

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21 minutes ago, Skizz said:

I would hazard a guess that 20 years from now more newer reader will be buying trades and deluxe editions of Dark Knight Returns than Hush.  But will they pay the 1.5 to 2 million dollars that would likely be asking price for 448 splash and it’s like by that time. I’d think unlikely without the first hand experience of having grown up in the 1980s.

Whether that $448K DKR 3 splash is at $2 million or $200K or $20K in 20 years' time, I am confident that it will be more valuable relatively than Hush or Court of Owls art.  Tastes change, yes, but I believe the relative hierarchy will remain.  I understand that the Millennials have a different outlook on things than Gen X - I've noted that fact MORE THAN ANYONE here on the Boards over the years.  But, like I said, you also have to recognize that it's not just about present tastes or even the all-powerful nostalgia factor.  There's a reason why certain things in a given hobby or genre remain touchstones even with the passing of generations, and that has everything to do with shared history/tradition, recognition of importance and enduring relevance, and other factors outside of current tastes.  2c 

Edited by delekkerste

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