New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!)
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14 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Is it fair to say that  - for those stories that remain in print or take on new life in movies or gaming - a new generation can take over  from nostalgia buyers who grew up with the work when it was new?

Anything that remains in print has at least a *chance* of gaining new fans, beyond the ones from its original release. Anything that doesn't...is more or less circling the drain. That's why interest in AMERICAN FLAGG! ends when my generation stops caring. But interest in WM, DKR, V, et al will carry forward for at least the foreseeable future.

14 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

What about inheritance - will some kids of current collectors take up the mantle? Will they take over the collections and grow them? Or even if they just keep them - will that keep prices up as supply is low? Or will all this art be dumped on the market at some point?

How much do you care about what your parents care(d) about? Just curious. See below.

14 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Anyone here ever get artwork handed down to you that hung in your home as a child?

Even though you wouldnt pick the item if it was up to you - you still love it and cherish it because of the memories attached to it?

Benno is on here occasionally, so I hope he sees this. I'll just mention something he told me before our last podcast. I wish it had made it in. Anyhow, he was talking to his adult daughter about his collection. The one piece she requested that he leave her was his DKR splash. Not because she cares about Batman or Miller or really, even comic art. It's because she knows what the piece means to her dad. That's her attachment to it. I loved that story. I'll have to have him tell it himself the next time he's on the show.

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3 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

Out there somewhere is some kid who will be keeping their Dad's collection of framed commissions of knocked out naked superheroines, just because of how much it meant to him, and/or how nostalgic Powergirl's boobies make them for when they were young and saw them every day growing up.

Or, because he can't get rid of them.

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11 hours ago, NelsonAI said:

From Felix's own roster, how about Tradd Moore or Skottie Young?  Their art will sell regardless of the writing.

Thanks for the plug, Nelson!(thumbsu

And you ain't kidding. Tradd did an issue of SUICIDE SQUAD for DC in 2016. It's been in publishing limbo ever since. He decided to sell the art, since there was no discernible movement with it seeing print.

So...the art is unpublished. No one's even seen it. No one knew who the writer was. That's a lot going against it.

We still sold out every single page. For the same prices that we would have asked if it was published. You can see the art here:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?Details=1&ArtistId=587&Mag=SUICIDE+SQUAD

Anyway...voudou is right. For many collectors, they don't need to have read the comic before buying the art. More on that in a sec...

 

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4 hours ago, vodou said:

Instead...example: how many are buying Chiang Paper Girls, DWJ Extremity quickly (before the ers sell out!) having not read a single issue, no idea what the story is about even, and neither being obvious as to what they are (visually speaking) except that (broadly) reviews seem favorable, both released by proper publishers (versus self-p, thus some editorial gatekeeping at play) and...the sht sells out fast (did I mention that already?) I did that recently, bought blind, several times. The art caught my eye, was attractive at a quick glance but also drew me in to wanting to figure it out 'more'. Because I don't buy single floppies anymore, only collecteds, I'm always 'behind' on what Felix is offering. That means: I don't know the storyline, the characters, what I'm even looking at on a given original (buncha faces, buncha action, whatever, without dialogue even!) A real blind purchase in the sense I'm bringing it up. (Except that it is sequential, so we're not talking about abstract collage art or something!) And in case it hasn't sunk in yet...you have to get there early to get something good and, more and more, anything at all. That means buying before the trade comes out, or buying art from issues you haven't personally read yet, based only on reading whatever the most recent collected of previous issues was. (That, however is a safer 'bet', as one has at least read something on the subject!)

I don't release the art the same day the comic comes out, I like to give collectors a chance to read the book first. But I may just be thinking about how I'd like to know the story before buying the art. More and more, though, I'm coming around to what you've said.

You'll be amused to know that the buyer of the EXTREMITY cover that dropped yesterday told me afterward that not only hadn't he read the issue that the cover was from...he hasn't read any of EXTREMITY at all.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that...but have to admit it's way more common that I would have thought.

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2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I remember in the early days of my OA collecting that Watchmen art was still (relatively) inexpensive, as the prevailing view was that it was Moore's writing, not Gibbons' art, that made it special.*  But, over time, I think people grew to recognize that a piece of WM art is not only what Gibbons put on the board, but also incorporates Moore's genius/input.  I also think that people grew to appreciate Gibbons' contribution to the series; his style was really bang-on perfect for it IMO.  I suspect if he had subsequently had a long stint on a major superhero title post-WM (instead of a Supes issue here, some British comics there, etc.) that his non-WM art probably would be more in demand these days.   

Of course there is a nostalgia component to buying WM and DKR art...but, I think there's also the historical significance of the two series and the prestige that comes with owning pieces from them.  One can buy Rob Liefeld art out of nostalgia (not saying there's anything wrong with that at all) and one can buy DKR art out of nostalgia, but, only one of those purchases is going to add gravitas to your collection. 

I totally agree that writing is what determines classics over the long-term (not that artists, in transforming that to visuals, can't play a significant role in the visual language and storytelling, of course).  Todd McFarlane ASM art might always be in-demand on the strength of the art, but, no one in their right mind would call ASM #298-328 a must-read classic run on the strength of the largely forgettable writing (and that goes double for the McSpidey series).  When it comes to Batman, it's the strength of the writing that will keep DKR and Year One so revered IMO. 2c 

 

* Definitely should have seen it coming that people would eventually just clamor to own a piece of Watchmen! 

+1.

Moore either chose his collaborators well, or he got really, really lucky. Gibbons was the perfect partner for WM. Also, I wouldn't point to the market value of his art to mean anything about his art. Let's be honest...fanboys can be guilty of some pretty questionable taste, especially when you add nostalgia into the mix (and I'll include myself there, as well).

I've often compared WM to CITIZEN KANE. A surface viewing of CK would be that it's a thinly-viewed biopic of William Randolph Hearst (similar to how some see WM as just a glorified superhero story). But dig a little deeper...and wow. CK is a work of absolute genius. Not everyone will appreciate that, it may still put many to sleep. But there is no denying Welles was an auteur and CK a masterpiece. Watch it with commentary. Similarly, check out any of the sites that annotate WM. There's a new book that's out, WATCHMEN ANNOTATED, which I haven't gotten yet, but I'm sure would demonstrate what makes WM an all-timer, and unlikely to ever be matched again.

Also re: "gravitas"...that sounds ridiculous, but I believe it. Not that buying DKR necessarily adds gravitas, but I suspect there are collectors who add certain pieces to their collection in a bid for respectability amongst their peers. Particularly BSDs.

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US. It may have been cheap when it was first sold out of Comics Showcase in London, but once it got to the US, it was getting marked up quite a bit. One long-time collector recalled to me how he paid Scott Dunbier $1K for a page back in 1991. To put that into context, he could have gotten a Wrightson Frankenstein plate for the same amount.

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6 minutes ago, Nexus said:

 

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US. It may have been cheap when it was first sold out of Comics Showcase in London, but once it got to the US, it was getting marked up quite a bit. One long-time collector recalled to me how he paid Scott Dunbier $1K for a page back in 1991. To put that into context, he could have gotten a Wrightson Frankenstein plate for the same amount.

Or 4-5 choice Neal Adams Batman pages. 

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15 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Lastly...we've debated the point before, but I'll contend that WM was never inexpensive. At least not here in the US. It may have been cheap when it was first sold out of Comics Showcase in London, but once it got to the US, it was getting marked up quite a bit. One long-time collector recalled to me how he paid Scott Dunbier $1K for a page back in 1991. To put that into context, he could have gotten a Wrightson Frankenstein plate for the same amount.

I actually manually recorded a lot of OA sales in the 2003-2006 period and have 4 public Watchmen page data points between $1.9K and $3.9K (averaging low $3Ks) from during this period (plus one outlier in the $7Ks, because...Hari lol  OK, that was a great page).  Which, upon further reflection, may not be as cheap as I recall, though, not crazy either.  I suspect that $1K page in 1991 must have been a pretty great page to have fetched that price.

Edited by delekkerste

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2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think people buy Preacher art because of the importance of the comic, not because Steve Dillon's art was particularly special (although I personally really like it). He clearly was perfectly suited to the material, but its not special. Like Gibbons, nobody is clamoring for Dillon art outside of Preacher (except maybe some Judge Dredd stuff).

I think the next "TDKR" may never come, as far as comic books go. There is nothing today that gets the same kind of mass audience that book got. The only thing close would be The Waking Dead, but that's a long-running saga, with a ton of art available. TDKR art is valuable in large part because there is not very much art available. Supply and Demand. If you want TWD art, it's easy to come by. Now, "key" pages are more expensive, obviously. But, you will never get the average per page price for TDKR. If Saga art were available, it would also probably be in this category.

I think what would have to happen is that a fairly popular (by today's standards) LIMITED RUN independent comic book becomes a pop culture phenomenon (a la the TMNJ), and gets turned into a big movie franchise, with TV spin offs, etc. I say "limited run" as opposed to ongoing (like TWD) because that original limited run's art would become the most valuable art of the property. It would, inevitably, be sequelized as a comic book, and create a larger universe. But, that initial run would be special. Hell Boy had a shot at that too.

And, had the initial TMNT run been a 6 issue limited series, that may qualify.

The odds of there being another DKR are low. But if it does happen, we won't know UNTIL it happens. Chasing the "next DKR" in the meantime is a fool's errand.

I compare WALKING DEAD to BA/CA X-MEN. Both with long, sustained runs as fan favorites. There is certainly a lot of art for both, but fans will ultimately pick/choose what they deem most important. For X-MEN, it's Claremont/Byrne, with DEATH OF PHOENIX as the high-water mark. For WD, I believe it will be the first 48 issues. Because those early issues made the most impact. And also because those first 48 issues make up the Compendium, which is the most-sold, highest print run, and thus, most widely-read  WD publication of them all. That's what people will have nostalgia for down the road.

And, most importantly, young fans read WD. Teens ate it up. WD trade sales are starting to slip from their previous heights in part, I believe, because that core audience is starting to age out. Not good news in the short term. But longer term, there's a solid chance WD will be remembered fondly, and nostalgia will kick in. What percentage, and to what degree, remains to be seen. But I believe WD at least has a chance, and certainly a better chance than properties whose primary audience is 40-and-over.

 

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32 minutes ago, Nexus said:

I don't release the art the same day the comic comes out, I like to give collectors a chance to read the book first. But I may just be thinking about how I'd like to know the story before buying the art. More and more, though, I'm coming around to what you've said.

You'll be amused to know that the buyer of the EXTREMITY cover that dropped yesterday told me afterward that not only hadn't he read the issue that the cover was from...he hasn't read any of EXTREMITY at all.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that...but have to admit it's way more common that I would have thought.

This is the kind of news that scares me a bit. This sounds like textbook speculation to me. The mindset of acquiring something they don't read, don't know the characters, are not invested in on a personal level, but still buy.

It's always impressive how quickly you sell out of art, but it raises a concern in my mind about the motives behind such speed. It has a beanie baby vibe to it when art sells out as fast as it's listed. Gotta get it before someone else does. Don't wanna miss out on the potential payday.

Speculation is clearly in the DNA of comics.

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6 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

This is the kind of news that scares me a bit. This sounds like textbook speculation to me. The mindset of acquiring something they don't read, don't know the characters, are not invested in on a personal level, but still buy.

It's always impressive how quickly you sell out of art, but it raises a concern in my mind about the motives behind such speed. It has a beanie baby vibe to it when art sells out as fast as it's listed. Gotta get it before someone else does. Don't wanna miss out on the potential payday.

Speculation is clearly in the DNA of comics.

Yeah. I looked at the Extremity art on Felix's site. I liked a lot of it. But, I had not read any of it yet. I wanted to know what I was looking at. Some of the most dynamic pages were not as  important - overall - to the story arc. I read the entirety of the series, and THEN selected art from it I wanted. That way, knew what the page I was buying meant to the story and the characters, and not just as a piece of art. Now, I also bought the pages I liked from an artistic standpoint too. Don't misunderstand me.

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2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

I just mean it's not a one to one choice. 

Most people would probably choose the Ditko, as the cornerstone of the hobby/title/character/icon that it represents. That demand is where the price difference is created. 

So you're on the right track in thinking a good Ditko Spidey is more desirable than a good Miller DKR page. The market agrees. 

... maybe.

We've seen some good DK pages come to auction, but most of the best ones have yet to surface. We've recently seen a couple of A+ Ditko ASM  crack the $100k mark (the recent Goblin and Doc Ock action pages).  I'm not so sure I couldn't find you a few DK pages that would do the same. 

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1 minute ago, J.Sid said:

... maybe.

We've seen some good DK pages come to auction, but most of the best ones have yet to surface. We've recently seen a couple of A+ Ditko ASM  crack the $100k mark (the recent Goblin and Doc Ock action pages).  I'm not so sure I couldn't find you a few DK pages that would do the same. 

Well, he's talking "GOOD". He wasn't really saying "BEST".

The "GOOD" Ditko Panels are in the $60's-70's. The "GOOD" Miller DKR seems to be sitting about 1/2 that.

Now the "BEST" might close the gap, but he was talking "GOOD". 

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41 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

This is the kind of news that scares me a bit. This sounds like textbook speculation to me. The mindset of acquiring something they don't read, don't know the characters, are not invested in on a personal level, but still buy.

It's always impressive how quickly you sell out of art, but it raises a concern in my mind about the motives behind such speed. It has a beanie baby vibe to it when art sells out as fast as it's listed. Gotta get it before someone else does. Don't wanna miss out on the potential payday.

Speculation is clearly in the DNA of comics.

No question, speculation happens in our hobby. It happens in new art. That's what drives the hunt for the "next DKR".

Now...to what degree is there speculation with what I sell? No idea. But I don't think it's high. I think that speculators tend to avoid me/my site, since most know I'm anti-speculation. I'd rather people not buy from us at all, than buy for speculation.

What I do know is that the art being bought isn't getting flipped, at least not immediately. Not individual pieces, and not complete issues. This may be surprising to some; there's the assumption that complete issues are cheaper to buy as a whole, with some discount built in. Thus, an opportunity for arbitrage. But that's not the case here at all. There is NO discount. The cost of the complete issue is the aggregate cost of the individual pages. There's no room for profit. Yet, collectors are still buying. I sold almost 30 complete issues last year (about 60 overall). To the best of my knowledge, not a single one has been broken up yet.

So I tend to think collectors are buying because they simply like the art. It's not just #1 issues that are selling complete. Almost all the complete issues sold are later issues, with scenes/moments that the buyer just likes. Also, the Tradd SUICIDE SQUAD issue is, again, UNPUBLISHED. That generally means zero upside. Yet, fans still wanted pages.

I'm sure the art I've sold will get resold at some point. But the reason it was bought from me, does not appear to be motivated by speculation.

 

(Adding this edit: Although the person who bought the EXTREMITY cover hadn't read the book yet, he is a fan of Daniel's art. And he likes Daniel personally. Despite not having read the book yet (he's a trade-waiter), he understood Daniel's art well enough that he recognized immediately why this was an "important" cover. And it IS actually Daniel's favorite cover of the run. So hopefully this is a more complete picture of why this happened.)

Edited by Nexus

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2 minutes ago, Nexus said:

No question, speculation happens in our hobby. It happens in new art. That's what drives the hunt for the "next DKR".

Now...to what degree is there speculation with what I sell? No idea. But I don't think it's high. I think that speculators tend to avoid me/my site, since most know I'm anti-speculation. I'd rather people not buy from us at all, than buy for speculation.

What I do know is that the art being bought isn't getting flipped, at least not immediately. Not individual pieces, and not complete issues. This may be surprising to some; there's the assumption that complete issues are cheaper to buy as a whole, with some discount built in. Thus, an opportunity for arbitrage. But that's not the case here at all. There is NO discount. The cost of the complete issue is the aggregate cost of the individual pages. There's no room for profit. Yet, collectors are still buying. I sold almost 30 complete issues last year (about 60 overall). To the best of my knowledge, not a single one has been broken up yet.

So I tend to think collectors are buying because they simply like the art. It's not just #1 issues that are selling complete. Almost all the complete issues sold are later issues, with scenes/moments that the buyer just likes. Also, the Tradd SUICIDE SQUAD issue is, again, UNPUBLISHED. That generally means zero upside. Yet, fans still wanted pages.

I'm sure the art I've sold will get resold at some point. But the reason it was bought from me, does not appear to be speculation.

I want to play devil's advocate a little here...

First and foremost, you're a huge DKR fan, which means your podcasts often reference that series and have guests that talk about it quite often. You do a good job of saying "only buy what you love and don't invest", but at the same time, a common thread is about a book where every page is 5-6 figures these days. Some people just see dollar signs no matter how much you push buying for love.

Second, if the art isn't being flipped at all, that may actually support the notion that people are in it for speculation.

Most artists and books that come onto the market sell the same way - the best pages are picked through, the weak ones linger. Inevitably a percentage of things that sold early on resurface months later when people realize they overspent, didn't like what they bought, find a better example, etc. We've talked a lot about White Knight on these boards, and while the art is not selling out, we've already seen pieces relisted for sale on eBay and dealer sites.

Yet if most of the art you sell isn't resurfacing, even in small doses, it makes me curious. There are plenty of investors who buy art, put the date they bought it on it, and throw it into a bin and don't look at it until 10 years have passed. They intentionally buffer how soon they let it return to the market.

And if that's a buyer's mindset, it seems like buying complete issues is the most cost effective investment vehicle since you don't need to worry about whether you picked the right pages to invest in.

 

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no disrespect meant, but I would think that if you were an 'investor', buying a full issue of extremity wouldn't be the first way I would think an investor would place 10k.  to me it points that these are going to collectors.

Edited by eewwnuk

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1 minute ago, eewwnuk said:

no disrespect meant, but I would think that if you were an 'investor', buying a full issue of extremity wouldn't be the first way I would think an investor would place 10k. 

I wasn't talking any specific book, just an investing mindset in general. There are plenty of complete books that could be had for a fraction of that.

And I'd think it would depend a great deal on how much money you have and how much confidence you have in the book.

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1 minute ago, RabidFerret said:

I want to play devil's advocate a little here...

First and foremost, you're a huge DKR fan, which means your podcasts often reference that series and have guests that talk about it quite often. You do a good job of saying "only buy what you love and don't invest", but at the same time, a common thread is about a book where every page is 5-6 figures these days. Some people just see dollar signs no matter how much you push buying for love.

First off...I'm a huge DKR fan, obviously. But I really only mention it on the podcast as much as I do because it's come to drive certain people crazy. I gotta keep myself amused, at the very least.

So when I talk about DKR, I'm not advocating for its value or its potential value. Actually, I'm quite agnostic about that, if not downright pessimistic. I suppose people hear what they want to hear, but I don't believe I've ever pushed people to buy DKR for any reason, including love.

7 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Second, if the art isn't being flipped at all, that may actually support the notion that people are in it for speculation.

Much as people will hear what they want to hear, they will believe what they want to believe. But in the end, your motives are your own; they don't necessarily transfer to anyone/everyone else.

7 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Most artists and books that come onto the market sell the same way - the best pages are picked through, the weak ones linger. Inevitably a percentage of things that sold early on resurface months later when people realize they overspent, didn't like what they bought, find a better example, etc. We've talked a lot about White Knight on these boards, and while the art is not selling out, we've already seen pieces relisted for sale on eBay and dealer sites.

It would seem, if WHITE KNIGHT art is already getting flipped, then it was bought for speculation.

11 minutes ago, RabidFerret said:

Yet if most of the art you sell isn't resurfacing, even in small doses, it makes me curious. There are plenty of investors who buy art, put the date they bought it on it, and throw it into a bin and don't look at it until 10 years have passed. They intentionally buffer how soon they let it return to the market.

And if that's a buyer's mindset, it seems like buying complete issues is the most cost effective investment vehicle since you don't need to worry about whether you picked the right pages to invest in.

So what are the "right" pages to invest in? Traditionally in this hobby, they're pages from #1 issues or first appearances of characters. Again, the vast majority of complete issues I've sold, are from random later issues. Does that sound like an "investment"?

Maybe the makeup of the audience will change. But for now, I do believe that fans are buying simply because they like the art/artist/title. This is a different crowd than who we interact with on the boards. They don't follow the hobby at large. Many don't bother with CAF. Most have no clue about the overall market...nor do they care. They care more about following artists on social media. Their desire to own art derives from that, not for what something similar is worth or may be worth. And if they can afford it, they buy it.

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16 hours ago, NinjaSealed said:

Price wise this is exactly the opposite in the long term. Nostalgia/hype fade with time, but historical importance is forever. 

I’d say hype and nostalgia work differently - former is forward looking and and the latter is backward looking. So I wouldn’t put the two together when considering the impact of nostalgia v appreciation of a classic.

What I was saying is that appreciation of a older classic books comes for cultural education, which is a logical and rational response. This appreciation is a long lasting thing. But people generally don’t go bananas over something when they’re coming from a logical place.   

Nostalgia is something that fades or can stay dormant and then can get triggered suddenly, maybe a death in the family, the smell of waffles mom used to make, anything.  And once it’s triggered, it is an emotional reaction that can make people irrational and pay stupid money in a way that and educated appreciation of history won’t.

16 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I think you're underestimating the shared culture/history/tradition aspect of this hobby vs. the power of nostalgia.  It's not like this pivot to things that Millennials like didn't happen in its own way with Gen X as well - we decided that, by and large, we preferred our comics grim & gritty and more serious, and that's what we got starting in the second half of the '80s.  And yet, it's not like '80s kids who became serious comic book & comic art collectors eschewed the lighter fare that we got in the Silver Age - far from it.  In fact, most of the big Silver Age collectors nowadays are those who grew up in the '70s and '80s and didn't even necessarily grow up with the material when it first came out!  That appreciation is all from the shared culture/history/tradition part of these hobbies, as well as just appreciating the stories/art for themselves (there are even some in the hobby who - quelle horreur! - just collect things that look nice to them! :eek: )

 

I agree that DKR is higher (possibly highest) in the hierarchy of Batman books/stories, and it and the art from it will/should remain so thirty years down the line.

But, as you yourself have noted, the amount of consumable entertainment available now is significantly more than it was in the 70s and 80s. And it’s only going to increase in the next 30 years (barrring unforeseen circumstances). With so much more things to draw attention, I think that the impact of the cultural appreciation of a mere thing like a graphic novel like DKR on someone in 2048 will be a lot more muted than the impact that silver age Kirby Ditko comics had on 70s and 80s kids who only had a handful of TV channels to distact them. 

As I tried to say above, I think cultural appreciation comes from a place of logic and rationality.  That probably makes someone pay maybe 20–50% above FMV.  Someone who appreciates DKR 30 years from now will probably appreciate many other classic artists and stories as well, and will want and need money for art from those too. So will be unlikely to pay crazy crazy money for just DKR.

However, nostalgia is an emotional response that makes people pay stupid money or whatever it takes.  

As to how nostalia for something like Court of Owls will play out 30 years from now, it’s more difficult to predict.  But the thing that’s more clear is that whilst there will be a lesser pool for people to be nostalgic about it given the decline in readership since the 80s, there will also be the same lesser pool of people to be appreciative of DKR 30 years from now. 

Again, whilst I agree that DKR will always remain higher that Court of Owls as a story, I do feel that overall the price disparity for the art between the two will lessen in the decades to come. 

 

Edited by Skizz

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