STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[Chicago Boy]

DISNEY KILLED STAR WARS !  WITHOUT LUCAS THERE IS NO SW

[fantastic_four]

30 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

DISNEY KILLED STAR WARS !  WITHOUT LUCAS THERE IS NO SW

I SLIT MY WRISTS AFTER I WAS FORCED TO SIT AND WATCH THE HIJINKS OF JAR JAR BINKS, AND I AM WRITING THIS POST AS A FORCE GHOST.

[Bosco685]

 

[Gatsby77]

2 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

I can't believe you guys believe Rian Johnson lied to that reporter to mislead fans.  When has any director done that after a film has been released?    All that could do is make your fans not trust anything you say.

I absolutely believe that Kathleen Kennedy is driving the master plan and that all parties involved -- Kennedy, Johnson and Abrams now know who Rey's parents are. Not to say they did two years ago, or that it hasn't changed along the way.

Doesn't mean that Abrams didn't lead us down a certain direction (Skywalker or Kenobi) or that Johnson himself didn't as well (with the Force connection between Kylo and Rey suggesting to me they were related).

But _of course_ they're not going to give it to us straight.

Recall that JJ Abrams unequivocally stated prior to Into Darkness that Benedict Cumberbatch wasn't Khan.

And that the trailer to this film strongly implied that Leia would die in a space battle at the hands of Kylo.

Again, I'm primarily confused by some fans taking it literally and as canon now that Rey's a nobody because it was stated as such in this film.

It seems obvious that we're not to trust the person who told her and that he had every reason to lie to her at that particular moment.

[fantastic_four]

23 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

(with the Force connection between Kylo and Rey suggesting to me they were related)

Why would it suggest that?  Snoke revealed that he was the one who created that Force connection between them.

[fantastic_four]

26 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Recall that JJ Abrams unequivocally stated prior to Into Darkness that Benedict Cumberbatch wasn't Khan.

Yes, and I could come up with a dozen or two other ways directors lied BEFORE a film was released to throw you off about a plot point so that a movie isn't spoiled for you, but I've never seen one lie afterwards about something that happened in an already-released film.  I see no reason to disbelieve Rian Johnson on whether Kylo lied or not unless you can think of examples of directors doing that in the past.  I've never seen it, and all I can see it doing is seeding distrust in their word.

Edited December 18, 2017 by fantastic_four

[Gatsby77]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Why would it suggest that?  Snoke revealed that he was the one who created that Force connection between them.

Yeah - but that was later in the film. 

Up until that point it begged the question of why/how they were connected.

If I recall correctly, the only similar connection we'd seen of that nature was with Luke and Leia in Empire, when Luke was holding onto the weather vane in Cloud City.

So throughout the whole first half of this film (until Snoke's revelation) it's implied that the strength of their connection might be due to blood ties. 

[comicwiz]

Sometimes, overanalyzing is a lot like stirring a pot of beans and expecting them to become something other than beans. They only become more mushy.

[fantastic_four]

4 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Sometimes, overanalyzing is a lot like stirring a pot of beans and expecting them to become something other than beans. They only become more mushy.

And more often than that I see people assume they're smarter than the director and that the director screwed up when in fact they made an intentional choice to do it the way they did it.  That was PARTICULARLY true in Prometheus, an insanely complex film that I saw at least half a dozen reviewer articles assume Lindelof and Scott screwed something up when in fact they didn't.  Which isn't to say they didn't screw anything up, just not nearly as much as most people think they did.  I'm still not getting some of these decisions by Rian, but I'm not ready to assume they were mistakes yet.

[fantastic_four]

19 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

26 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Why would it suggest that?  Snoke revealed that he was the one who created that Force connection between them.

Yeah - but that was later in the film. 

Up until that point it begged the question of why/how they were connected.

If I recall correctly, the only similar connection we'd seen of that nature was with Luke and Leia in Empire, when Luke was holding onto the weather vane in Cloud City.

So throughout the whole first half of this film (until Snoke's revelation) it's implied that the strength of their connection might be due to blood ties. 

Ah, yea, that does make sense.  It was definitely reasonable to believe that through the first half.

[aardvark88]

13 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Sometimes, overanalyzing is a lot like stirring a pot of beans and expecting them to become something other than beans.

I for one am looking forward to SW Episode 9, and hope that Snoak's backstory, Rei's real  parents, and surviving 5 padiwan (other than Kylo Ren) that Luke Skywalker trained will be expanded upon.  I assume that the closing scene in SW: TLJ symbolized hope for the common folk as the young boy was moving his broomstick like a light sabre.

[fantastic_four]

3 minutes ago, aardvark88 said:

I for one am looking forward to SW Episode 9, and hope that Snoak's backstory, Rei's real  parents, and surviving 5 padiwan (other than Kylo Ren) that Luke Skywalker trained will be expanded upon.  I assume that the closing scene in SW: TLJ symbolized hope for the common folk as the young boy was moving his broomstick like a light sabre.

I assumed that too about the kid, that he's not a part of the story but just a visual way to back up Leia's assertion that the resistance had everything it needed to continue.

I'm not sure we'll ever get Snoke's back story without some sort of prequel film filling the huge time gap between Episodes VI and VII.  And if you compare Snoke in these two films to the Emperor from Episodes V and VI, we actually know more about Snoke now than we ever did about the Emperor then.  Palpatine's story--even his name, which was never mentioned in the original three films--wasn't developed until Episodes I through III.

Edited December 18, 2017 by fantastic_four

[comix4fun]

12 hours ago, fmaz said:

This is nuts.   Wasn’t sure if this has been posted yet.   But it explains a lot, and it’s also sad that someone would do this.   Not that audience scores ever really meant anything before... but now they forever more will have zero merit.

 

 

Assuming what he's claiming is 100% accurate and true would be an error, I believe. 

[Antpark]

4 hours ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

Okay, but none of this addresses the very basic premise that Luke gave up on trying to rescue/save Ren or on confronting Snoke.  He gave up on training a new generation of Jedi because he came to believe their way was ineffective...Okay, I'll buy that, but he also gave up fighting evil entirely.  He let his sister risk her life to run the Resistance, abandoned his friends (Lando, Han, Chewy, etc.)  and he retreated to the back-end of the galaxy to get away from it all.

That's not a hero.  And if the moral of the story is that you give up when the odds seem long, or that you shouldn't even bother because you can't really destroy evil, well...WTF kind of lesson is that?  

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."   Which is exactly what Luke does: nothing. 

What's worse in all this is that Luke's actions directly influenced the transformation of Ben Solo into Kylo Ren, yet he took no responsibility for it at all, or rather, just shrugged his shoulders and said "oh well, that stinks...time to skid-daddle to a backwater planet and let my mess consume the galaxy."  Again, WTF kind of lesson is that?

I'm sorry, since we can only extrapolate from the material we are presented with, I'm not inclined to give TLJ Luke a pass based off of his hypothetical personal struggles of the last 30 years.  He should've known better, he should've have done more, and he didn't.  Mark Hamill has every right to be critical of the treatment of Luke, because no one knows that character better than him, not Lucas, not the fanbase, and certainly not Rian Johnson.

I see it a little differently and think it might have been what the filmmakers were trying to convey

Spoiler

 

4 hours ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

He gave up on training a new generation of Jedi because . . .  Luke's actions directly influenced the transformation of Ben Solo into Kylo Ren . . . yet he took no responsibility for it at all

If you look at it from Luke's perspective:

• His sister and his best friend entrusted the care of their only son to him. In a moment of weakness, not only does he contemplate killing him (his nephew), but arguably does something far worse -- sets him on the path to turn into something they've been fighting against their whole lives (Vader 2.0  0.5).
• Kylo Ren proceeds to destroy the new Jedi Temple and (one assumes) everyone within it. So now, not only has he "lost" his flesh and blood, but he's also personally responsible for the death of every single child, young adult, helper, worker, etc. that was there because of him. This was probably the largest instance of mass youngling slaughter since Vader. And it was all Luke's fault.
• The backlash from all this was probably immense. If someone turns your son against you and sets him on a path of death and destruction, you'll likely harbor a lot of anger and blame (rightfully so or not) against that person. You won't be quick to forgive them and won't even want to see them, as their presence is a reminder of what you've lost. With Leia and Han being part of the leadership, I'd imagine most of their friends & colleagues felt sympathy for them and anger/disgust at Luke, making him persona non grata in their circles. I'm sure there was probably a bit of schadenfreude too, even in the Star Wars Universe.

All of this probably devastated him and led to him feeling extremely guilty and ashamed. He said something similar to that when talking with Yoda about how "The Great Luke Skywalker failed . . ." What do you do when no one wants to be around you and even your family doesn't want to see you? How do you continue on as before when everything you've done has only made things worse?

That's how I chose to interpret it anyway.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Antpark
Spoiler tagged, just in case + formatting

[Straw-Man]

16 hours ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

I can't speak for anyone else on here, but in my small circle of friends, the reviews came in as "mixed" (myself) to extreme visceral hate by at least two 40+ year old Star Wars nerds that I know.  I can't find a single person I know in my personal social circles, either through Facebook or the conversations I've had the last few days so said they flat out liked it.   I thought I was being too critical of the film, and then I came to find that my buddies were far more in the Hate camp than I would've believed possible.

One even told me it was the worst movie he ever saw, and not just the worst Star Wars movie, but the worst movie, period.  After I heard his litany of reasons and arguments why he felt the way he did, I came to realize I had been a lot more forgiving of the movie than I first thought.

I don't believe this movie is going to have the legs of TFA, because a certain percentage just won't go back to see it, but I guess we'll find out.  

 

either he hasn't seen many, or he's the world's worst critic.  this from someone who thinks last jedi is "just okay."

[comix4fun]

4 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

 

1) Slashfilm: 

"Luke’s hopelessness is especially affecting because the film is clearly on his side. This is not a movie where a plucky young Jedi-to-be shows up at the old master’s doorstep and teaches him how to hope again. This is a movie where a flawed old man with a lifetime of victories and regrets informs the decisions of a new generation of young heroes who need to find a new way to hope. Clearly, the old ways didn’t work because darkness rises again and there are still tyrannical man-babies trying to be the next Darth Vader. There’s a flaw in the system, buried too deep for most to see, and the only solution is to burn it all down."

Further, "...Yoda knows what Luke knows – the order to which he dedicated his long life is gone, and trying to recapture it is a fool’s errand. Why resurrect an archaic institution that cannot serve a new generation when you can let that new generation build something new for itself? Even Luke, a noble man who believed in the hidden goodness of Darth Vader, gave into his darkest feelings and considered murdering young Ben Solo in his sleep. The old ways failed Luke. They failed Ben. They will fail the Resistance. Luke knows this through anger and regret. Yoda knows this through wisdom and perspective."

2) Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-negative-fan-reactions-rotten-tomatoes-score

"Luke rallies when he needs to and pulls off the most powerful Force-using move we’ve ever seen in this franchise—a galaxy-spanning feat of astral projection. Luke had to hit rock bottom, green milk and all, in order to soar to new heights. This story was always going to end with Luke reduced, Yoda-like, to a pile of clothes and far from advocating the end of the Jedi, Johnson’s film firmly underlines how they will carry on—even without Luke."

With all due respect to their journalism and film history degrees on full display, they're a few eggs short of a dozen in their analysis. 

The force is a balance and a cycle, revolving onto itself. It's a chain that won't break. 

In the Star Wars Universe, and in it's basic thematic mythology, ending the Jedi Order, burning it all down, won't stop the next cycle of evil from rising it will just prevent the light from being there to thwart it. 

Johnson didn't seem intent of reducing Luke to a pile of clothes because that's how the force will carry on, he got rid of Luke (and, really, all the established mythology, characters, themes, tone, and plot) to mark his territory as if he was saying "THIS IS MY STAR WARS". He beats us over the head with it. There are DOZENS of blatant nods to him wanting to torch everything that came before, and they run counter to the universe as it's been established. Including the utterly ham-fisted destruction of Anakin's saber....which basically launched the entire movie universe in the first place.

It's not about "lets move on to something better" and more "this is mine, and I am going to bury the past, even if I have to kill it." paraphrasing what he had Kylo say. 

In that vein there are several more problems with how this film was plotted, assembled and executed. 

To get there, to the "MINE", Johnson also destroyed the tone of the film with having every single character cracking jokes, sarcasm, slapstick, prat falls, etc. which destroyed the pace of the film and the tension of key moments. It all seemed like a big joke to Johnson. Whilst in the middle of mass murder and attempted extermination of thousands of people perhaps we don't need Carrot Top's long lost relative (Hux) to be part of some First Order Laurel and Hardy routine. Serious scenes are meant to be serious. You break the tension AFTERWARDS, and not DURING, the scene. Johnson fell in love with his own sense of humor to the point that it became a constant distraction to the story being told instead of needed comedic relief at key, but limited, moments. 

Then there are established characters who have developed and evolved (Like Luke) only to have their entire life history, experience, and evolution tossed to the side in order to serve where Johnson wants to go. 

As I mentioned initially, I don't have a problem with these films going in whatever story direction works best. But I will and do have a massive problem with altering the terra firma of the SW Universe to the point where characters run counter to established behavior and personality in order to serve at the whims of a Director's inner urges to exert dominance and prominence. 

 

 

[fmaz]

28 minutes ago, aardvark88 said:

I for one am looking forward to SW Episode 9, and hope that Snoak's backstory, Rei's real  parents, and surviving 5 padiwan (other than Kylo Ren) that Luke Skywalker trained will be expanded upon.  I assume that the closing scene in SW: TLJ symbolized hope for the common folk as the young boy was moving his broomstick like a light sabre.

Upon further review, I now think that that young boy will actually grow up to be...

 

[comix4fun]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

Why would it suggest that?  Snoke revealed that he was the one who created that Force connection between them.

Snoke also believed he knew Ren's actions, thoughts and motivations better than Ren knew them himself. 

That turned out to be accurate......

[1Cool]

45 minutes ago, Straw-Man said:

either he hasn't seen many, or he's the world's worst critic.  this from someone who thinks last jedi is "just okay."

I will say it was the worst movie (seen at the theater) in terms of my enjoyment this year.  I usually see 3 movies a month so of the 30 - 35 movies I've seen this year this was the one movie that irritated me so much I wanted to leave half way thru.  I've walked out of maybe 3 movies in my whole life and this one was nearly forth.  My brother-in-law loved it and one co-worked thought it was ok but the rest of the people in my friend/family circle disliked it or hated it.

Edited December 18, 2017 by 1Cool

[WolverineX]

8 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

I will say it was the worst movie (seen at the theater) in terms of my enjoyment this year.  I usually see 3 movies a month so of the 30 - 35 movies I've seen this year this was the one movie that irritated me so much I wanted to leave half way thru.  I've walked out of maybe 3 movies in my whole life and this one was nearly forth.  My brother-in-law loved it and one co-worked thought it was ok but the rest of the people in my friend/family circle disliked it or hated it.

Same here.  I was mainly annoyed by what they did to Luke and it seems like a lot of people on this board echo that sentiment.  However, are other people outside of this board feeling the same way?