CAPTAIN MARVEL starring Brie Larson (3/8/19) 5 5

[Sweet Lou 14]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

The ultimate example of this was in the first Avengers movie where Hulk is chasing Widow around the helicarrier.  That whole scene was absurd...Hulk should have ripped Widow apart within the first few seconds of that chase, or at virtually any other moment during it.  

Of all the things that have been debated about the Hulk's limits, I think foot speed might be the forgotten topic.  I'm not sure how fast the Hulk is supposed to be able to sprint, but I'm going to assume he can easily outrun Black Widow.  That said, she had the luxury of running between all those pillars, and he had to run through them.

Also you can always go to the "Banner's in there holding him back" defense whenever you need it.

[MustEatBrains]

Saw it this weekend.  All I can say is LOVE the cat (goose)

[theCapraAegagrus]

15 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

I've never understood her as a member of the Avengers, period, regardless of writing.  What good is she, or Hawkeye?  They're unpowered heroes paired up with extremely powerful ones.  I liked her paired up with Daredevil in the 70s because he's only a low-powered hero, but Widow paired up with Hulk or Thor is just a bizarre mismatch.

They're both mostly useless, from a combative standpoint, which is why I wish they'd kill off all of the OG Avengers other than Thor (even then, I'd be happy with all 6 of them dying) in Endgame.

They both served a purpose in Age of Ultron, though. Hawkeye had his secret hideout that they could gather their thoughts and Nat was able to bring Bruce back in the beginning and also bring out the Hulk at the end.

[Bosco685]

59 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

They're both mostly useless, from a combative standpoint, which is why I wish they'd kill off all of the OG Avengers other than Thor (even then, I'd be happy with all 6 of them dying) in Endgame.

They both served a purpose in Age of Ultron, though. Hawkeye had his secret hideout that they could gather their thoughts and Nat was able to bring Bruce back in the beginning and also bring out the Hulk at the end.

Although I have gone back and forth on Black Widow and Hawkeye membership in the MCU, I came to see them as the intelligence-gathering side of the team due to their history and experience. And former SHIELD connections.

So though you have the heavy-hitters to take on the big threats, these are the members that can use their resources to dig up details the others may not have access to.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Although I have gone back and forth on Black Widow and Hawkeye membership in the MCU, I came to see them as the intelligence-gathering side of the team due to their history and experience. And former SHIELD connections.

So though you have the heavy-hitters to take on the big threats, these are the members that can use their resources to dig up details the others may not have access to.

Tony Stark was able to hack SHIELD, though.

They have their uses, and I suspect that in Endgame, their truly bare-bones human sides will bring a lot of 'feels' to the audience.

Going forward, the more-cosmic the MCU scales, the less useful they'll be.

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Tony Stark was able to hack SHIELD, though.

They have their uses, and I suspect that in Endgame, their truly bare-bones human sides will bring a lot of 'feels' to the audience.

Going forward, the more-cosmic the MCU scales, the less useful they'll be.

Tony hacked shield because its technology comes from Stark Industries anyway. To include the Helicarrier software being influenced by J.A.R.V.I.S. It makes sense there are backdoor programs for 'maintenance' Tony could take advantage of. But when it comes to Human Intelligence in gathering information, that could involve details not even captured in SHIELD systems previously. Hence why Hawkeye and Black Window can deliver on these details.

But even with Rocket Raccoon, if we rule out those two characters then what value does he bring other than comedy relief? A raging raccoon that has above-average intelligence and can build devices from simple resources. Yet he really has no superpowers.

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Tony hacked shield because its technology comes from Stark Industries anyway. To include the Helicarrier software being influenced by J.A.R.V.I.S. It makes sense there are backdoor programs for 'maintenance' Tony could take advantage of. But when it comes to Human Intelligence in gathering information, that could involve details not even captured in SHIELD systems previously. Hence why Hawkeye and Black Window can deliver on these details.

But even with Rocket Raccoon, if we rule out those two characters then what value does he bring other than comedy relief? A raging raccoon that has above-average intelligence and can build devices from simple resources. Yet he really has no superpowers.

Not sure where the information from your first paragraph comes from. AFAIK, Tony Stark never did anything for SHIELD pre-Avengers. The first ever mention of him being involved with them was in The Winter Soldier.

Rocket has elite predictive-combat skills, similar to Stark's Iron Man ingenuity, as evidence in GotG Vol 2. That genius is something that sets them apart from characters like Barton and Romanoff. Engineering and scientific understanding is more valuable than spying, in a universe with villains that have power. The time of spies is in the past.

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Not sure where the information from your first paragraph comes from. AFAIK, Tony Stark never did anything for SHIELD pre-Avengers. The first ever mention of him being involved with them was in The Winter Soldier.

Rocket has elite predictive-combat skills, similar to Stark's Iron Man ingenuity, as evidence in GotG Vol 2. That genius is something that sets them apart from characters like Barton and Romanoff. Engineering and scientific understanding is more valuable than spying, in a universe with villains that have power. The time of spies is in the past.

You forgot about Howard Stark, who was part of the founding members and providing their technology early on. Howard and Nick Fury were working together long before Tony came along.

'You clearly knew my dad better than I did!'

'I did. He was one of the founding members of SHIELD!'

As far as the time of spies being over, even in outer space it will require gathering intel and tripping people up with simple espionage. Remember, Gamora was just hanging out watching when she tripped up Peter. No super-powered beatdown necessary.

And with Rocket, like was shown in Guardians 2 it all comes down to the same skills matched with his abilities to build devices. But that won't work with a Thanos or Galactus-level character. But with their minions, most probably.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

You forgot about Howard Stark, who was part of the founding members and providing their technology early on. Howard and Nick Fury were working together long before Tony came along.

'You clearly knew my dad better than I did!'

'I did. He was one of the founding members of SHIELD!'

As far as the time of spies being over, even in outer space it will require gathering intel and tripping people up with simple espionage. Remember, Gamora was just hanging out watching when she tripped up Peter. No super-powered beatdown necessary.

And with Rocket, like was shown in Guardians 2 it all comes down to the same skills matched with his abilities to build devices. But that won't work with a Thanos or Galactus-level character. But with their minions, most probably.

Lol you think intergalactic systems will fall for human spies? IMO that's really delusional.

I'm also not convinced that Howard Stark would help build infrastructure that can be easily accessed by a loophole for a super-secret organization. He had no knowledge that his son would grow up to be a technological genius. That would also leave a Death Star hole-sized weakness for any interested parties to attack.

JARVIS was also developed by Tony, and not Howard, so JARVIS didn't have any pre-determined knowledge of SHIELD's programming infrastructure.

This, of course, also doesn't account for the fact that when Howard died in the 90's, the programming language differences between the 20 years of his death and The Avengers isn't accounted for.

Human spies worked in a human world. In a world where HYDRA was already found to have corrupted a super-secret organization, they don't work anymore. They most certainly won't work in a cosmic world, either.

[Bosco685]

Just now, TwoPiece said:

Lol you think intergalactic systems will fall for human spies? IMO that's really delusional.

I'm also not convinced that Howard Stark would help build infrastructure that can be easily accessed by a loophole for a super-secret organization. He had no knowledge that his son would grow up to be a technological genius. That would also leave a Death Star hole-sized weakness for any interested parties to attack.

JARVIS was also developed by Tony, and not Howard, so JARVIS didn't have any pre-determined knowledge of SHIELD's programming infrastructure.

This, of course, also doesn't account for the fact that when Howard died in the 90's, the programming language differences between the 20 years of his death and The Avengers isn't accounted for.

Human spies worked in a human world. In a world where HYDRA was already found to have corrupted a super-secret organization, they don't work anymore. They most certainly won't work in a cosmic world, either.

From the source material.

S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier

Quote

The Helicarrier, an aircraft carrier specifically designed to be itself capable of independent powered flight in addition to the standard functions of aircraft carriers, is the world headquarters and signature capital ship of the extra-governmental intelligence/defense agency S.H.I.E.L.D.

 

Built by Stark Industries and designed by Tony Stark, Dr. Reed Richards, and former X-Man Forge. In addition to housing wings of fighters and other aircraft, the Helicarrier bristles with advanced weaponry, including an intercontinental ballistic missile.

So after Iron Man II, Tony and Nick Fury were working together more as they formed The Avengers. Not a stretch technology-sharing was part of the engagement. Even in Iron Man (2008) Phil Coulson was already engaging with Tony as part of the Iron Monger event.

Now as far as J.A.R.V.I.S. goes, you forget how deep in Coulson was into this program. He overrides the program to see Stark in The Avengers. It's because he had access to the system. Because S.H.I.E.L.D. was already deep into Stark Industries. Even after Howard's passing.

As far as telling someone they are delusional in a discussion (is that really a positive way to have a discussion?), you sound very inexperienced with how HUMINT works. No matter how big Space is, there is most probably going to be a need to gather information and apply espionage whenever dealing with large civilizations with spread-out information. Such actions to work through a complex situation are going to come into play.

[theCapraAegagrus]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

From the source material.

S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier

So after Iron Man II, Tony and Nick Fury were working together more as they formed The Avengers. Not a stretch technology-sharing was part of the engagement. Even in Iron Man (2008) Phil Coulson was already engaging with Tony as part of the Iron Monger event.

Now as far as J.A.R.V.I.S. goes, you forget how deep in Coulson was into this program. He overrides the program to see Stark in The Avengers. It's because he had access to the system. Because S.H.I.E.L.D. was already deep into Stark Industries. Even after Howard's passing.

As far as telling someone they are delusional in a discussion (is that really a positive way to have a discussion?), you sound very inexperienced with how HUMINT works. No matter how big Space is, there is most probably going to be a need to gather information and apply espionage whenever dealing with large civilizations with spread-out information. Such actions to work through a complex situation are going to come into play.

Haven't we learned by now that Marvel Comics and the MCU are far from one and the same..?

Everything after that basis is purely conjecture or speculation. For me, it's not worth debating something not supported by concrete evidence.

IMO it is delusional to form such a seemingly believed argument with inconclusive or irrelevant information. This all being a tangent far off from the discussion of Barton or Nat's value to the MCU (which is close to nil).

So, you seriously think that Barton, with an Earth-based family, or Nat, are capable of being useful intergalactic spies on potential planets that they know literally nothing about..? Spies are valuable because if their ability to adapt among Earth psychology. The application elsewhere requires a lifetime of training. It doesn't require a lifetime on Earth because your formative years are spent here. It's asinine.

[Bosco685]

19 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Haven't we learned by now that Marvel Comics and the MCU are far from one and the same..?

Everything after that basis is purely conjecture or speculation. For me, it's not worth debating something not supported by concrete evidence.

IMO it is delusional to form such a seemingly believed argument with inconclusive or irrelevant information. This all being a tangent far off from the discussion of Barton or Nat's value to the MCU (which is close to nil).

So, you seriously think that Barton, with an Earth-based family, or Nat, are capable of being useful intergalactic spies on potential planets that they know literally nothing about..? Spies are valuable because if their ability to adapt among Earth psychology. The application elsewhere requires a lifetime of training. It doesn't require a lifetime on Earth because your formative years are spent here. It's asinine.

I get it your approach to a differing opinion is to belittle the other party. it's an approach. Not the best one. But it seems to work for you. 

'We' have learned there is a difference between the source material and the MCU. But it is not a stretch to assume the origins of the Helicarrier involved Stark Industries. Even when Obadiah Stane was running the company while Tony was missing, he was all about mass distribution of Stark technology for the sake of profit. Although you may assume he sold to everyone BUT S.H.I.E.L.D. It has to be true - right?

Now, my wise friend, coming from someone that was in military service and part of our leadership training was the force-multiplier value of C3 (Command, Control, Communications). With the last C it came down to the use of HUMINT to learn about the enemy and the people they control. Such methods would be passed along with allies as a framework to build upon. So having experts like Black Widow and Hawkeye training an appropriate force to apply the same techniques with indigenous beings from a given society, it works the same. Just having to adjust for common society norms and customs.

Is this where I call your inexperienced and limited thinking 'asinine'? I want to get this right. 

Oh, and I forgot. Still this...

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Bosco685

[theCapraAegagrus]

6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I get it your approach to a differing opinion is to belittle the other party. it's an approach. Not the best one. But it seems to work for you. 

'We' have learned there is a difference between the source material and the MCU. But it is not a stretch to assume the origins of the Helicarrier involved Stark Industries. Even when Obadiah Stane was running the company while Tony was missing, he was all about mass distribution of Stark technology for the sake of profit. Although you may assume he sold to everyone BUT S.H.I.E.L.D. It has to be true - right?

Now, my wise friend, coming from someone that was in military service and part of our leadership training was the force-multiplier value of C3 (Command, Control, Communications). With the last C it came down to the use of HUMINT to learn about the enemy and the people they control. Such methods would be passed along with allies as a framework to build upon. So having experts like Black Widow and Hawkeye training an appropriate force to apply the same techniques with indigenous beings from a given society, it works the same. Just having to adjust for common society norms and customs.

Is this where I call your inexperienced and limited thinking 'asinine'? I want to get this right. 

How did I belittle you? If you're taking it personally, then I suggest separating your emotions from your stance. I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your argument, which is exactly how a debate works.

You can't present Marvel Comics data as a source for your information. It doesn't fly when discussing the MCU. This is just factual information.

"Limited thinking"? You're applying, singularly, Earth psychology to a debate about cosmic spying. I would call that "limited thinking.

It would take Barton or Nat decades to be able to apply their human-based spying acumen to another planet's and species' infrastructure. Their value as an Avenger in the MCU is limited and continues to dwindle.

Edited April 3, 2019 by TwoPiece

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

How did I belittle you? If you're taking it personally, then I suggest separating your emotions from your stance. I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your argument, which is exactly how a debate works.

You can't present Marvel Comics data as a source for your information. It doesn't fly when discussing the MCU. This is just factual information.

"Limited thinking"? You're applying, singularly, Earth psychology to a debate about cosmic spying. I would call that "limited thinking.

It would take Barton or Nat decades to be able to apply their human-based spying acumen to another planet's and species' infrastructure. Their value as an Avenger in the MCU is limited and continues to dwindle.

Uh-huh. Unfortunately, you're so blinded by wanting to disregard the facts you can't even acknowledge the details are all there in those MCU video scenes. Including Howard was involved with Nick Fury for years, leading to a Stark Industries relationship. That's most probably where your logical falls into the ignorant territory in recognizing the facts. And definitely limited thinking.

Gamora using the same type of approach to trip up Peter even demonstrates the facts. Your loss if you can't see the details through the trees.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Bosco685

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Uh-huh. Unfortunately, your so blinded by wanting to disregard the facts you can't even acknowledge the details are all there in those MCU video scenes. Including Howard was involved with Nick Fury for years, leading to a Stark Industries relationship. That's most probably where your logical falls into the ignorant territory in recognizing the facts. And definitely limited thinking.

Gamora using the same type of approach to trip up Peter even demonstrates the facts. Your loss if you can't see the details through the trees.

Lol what!? You're so emotionally invested in this discussion that not refuting the videos is tantamount to disregard..?

Consider my mind blown.

Also - I'm moving that discussion completely aside as it has literally nothing to do with the close-worthlessness of Barton and Romanoff.

Gamora is "the fiercest woman in the galaxy" and on a completely different level than the 2 "weak ones". That's an Age of Ultron quote. The Avengers enemies know they have "weak ones".

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, TwoPiece said:

Lol what!? You're so emotionally invested in this discussion that not refuting the videos is tantamount to disregard..?

Consider my mind blown.

Also - I'm moving that discussion completely aside as it has literally nothing to do with the close-worthlessness of Barton and Romanoff.

Gamora is "the fiercest woman in the galaxy" and on a completely different level than the 2 "weak ones". That's an Age of Ultron quote. The Avengers enemies know they have "weak ones".

Unfortunately, my emotional investment is acknowledging your approach is part of a discussion problem. No excitement from me. Even teasing you over your approach rather than getting excited.

I've done my part in providing clear examples in the MCU and even with the source material to show how Stark Industries has touched even S.H.I.E.L.D., how even a Rocket Raccoon could be discounted if you allow it to happen due to limited capabilities other than his high-intelligence, and the value Hawkeye and Black Widow could provide to enhance the team's capabilities. Your approach to the discussion, no matter how on-point you assume it to be, is just to dismiss.

Even with Gamora her 'fiercest woman in the Galaxy' powers were not necessary for what she accomplished close-up. The 'Weak Ones' serve as surprises even when you consider how Natasha surprised S.H.I.E.L.D. when she used a USB drive to download information on the ship in Winter Soldier and later infiltrated its HQ to help Cap. No super-strength necessary.

[theCapraAegagrus]

10 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Unfortunately, my emotional investment is acknowledging your approach is part of a discussion problem. No excitement from me. Even teasing you over your approach rather than getting excited.

I've done my part in providing clear examples in the MCU and even with the source material to show how Stark Industries has touched even S.H.I.E.L.D., how even a Rocket Raccoon could be discounted if you allow it to happen due to limited capabilities other than his high-intelligence, and the value Hawkeye and Black Widow could provide to enhance the team's capabilities. Your approach to the discussion, no matter how on-point you assume it to be, is just to dismiss.

Even with Gamora her 'fiercest woman in the Galaxy' powers were not necessary for what she accomplished close-up. The 'Weak Ones' serve as surprises even when you consider how Natasha surprised S.H.I.E.L.D. when she used a USB drive to download information on the ship in Winter Soldier and later infiltrated its HQ to help Cap. No super-strength necessary.

Considering that it's comic book material, and not the MCU, this can't be considered "clear examples". They're not one and the same. Very far from it. If you don't acknowledge and apply that then we can't have an even discussion, because I, and the court of public opinion, cannot accept that as a valid talking point. We can only accept concrete evidence within the context of the MCU. Howard Stark's involvement with SHIELD ended 20 years prior to Iron Man. That gap pretty much entirely eliminates all connections between the brands for 2 decades. But, again, this discussion is completely meaningless to the Avengers' "weak ones".

Gamora has strength and power, and galactic knowledge, that Barton and Nat do not. Using human accomplishments to fluff either weak one is nothing close to the capabilities that a galactic traveler such as Gamora has. Gamora has power and skills useful to the Guardians and Avengers. The weak ones, at this point, don't. War Machine trumps them both, even with wobbly legs.

"Teasing" doesn't really work over the internet. I've tried it on Facebook, and it's never worked. Obviously, it isn't working in this discussion right now...

Edited April 3, 2019 by TwoPiece

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Considering that it's comic book material, and not the MCU, this can't be considered "clear examples". They're not one and the same. Very far from it. If you don't acknowledge and apply that then we can't have an even discussion, because I, and the court of public opinion, cannot accept that as a valid talking point. We can only accept concrete evidence within the context of the MCU. Howard Stark's involvement with SHIELD ended 20 years prior to Iron Man. That gap pretty much entirely eliminates all connections between the brands for 2 decades. But, again, this discussion is completely meaningless to the Avengers' "weak ones".

Gamora has strength and power, and galactic knowledge, that Barton and Nat do not. Using human accomplishments to fluff either weak one is nothing close to the capabilities that a galactic traveler such as Gamora has. Gamora has power and skills useful to the Guardians and Avengers. The weak ones, at this point, don't. War Machine trumps them both, even with wobbly legs.

"Teasing" doesn't really work over the internet. I've tried it on Facebook, and it's never worked. Obviously, it isn't working in this discussion right now...

Same statements without taking the time to actually consider the MCU facts. It's a shame, because you may be missing out.

Through the Howard Stark relationship, Stark Industries and S.H.I.E.L.D. had an alliance through partnership that you assume ends when Howard dies. Yet those ties were already in place, and didn't require one person to be there to maintain any knowledge-sharing and technology supplies. That to me is ignoring facts Howard's removal was the key link afterwards. Why do you think Coulson could so easily shut down J.A.R.V.I.S.'s protection in The Avengers? Because he brought a Target Easy Button with him?

You missed the point about Gamora because you so quickly want to dismiss an opposing view. She had no need to apply her powers in order to sneak up on Peter and apply trickery to grab the Infinity Stone. It was simple HUMINT to win him over and then snatch it.

But you have your opinions on these things, and I will have mine. Though mine comes with clear examples to validate the opinions.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Through the Howard Stark relationship, Stark Industries and S.H.I.E.L.D. had an alliance through partnership that you assume ends when Howard dies. Yet those ties were already in place, and didn't require one person to be there to maintain any knowledge-sharing and technology supplies. That to me is ignoring facts Howard's removal was the key link afterwards. Why do you think Coulson could so easily shut down J.A.R.V.I.S.'s protection in The Avengers? Because he brought a Target Easy Button with him?

You missed the point about Gamora because you so quickly want to dismiss an opposing view. She had no need to apply her powers in order to sneak up on Peter and apply trickery to grab the Infinity Stone. It was simple HUMINT to win him over and then snatch it.

But you have your opinions on these things, and I will have mine. Though mine comes with clear examples to validate the opinions.

That's purely conjecture. There's no evidence to support this.

Coulson being able to "override" JARVIS in The Avengers is a matter of computer programming and nothing else. Claiming that SHIELD somehow knows what JARVIS even is is more conjecture. JARVIS is simply a program that knows how to program. A human that knows how to program is 99.99% more likely to successfully control an engineered electrical device such as a phone or elevator. "It's science".

No, I think that you're missing the entire point. That is that Gamora is a superior physical specimen, and not a "weak" character in the cosmic MCU. Barton and Romanoff are the weakest "hero" characters that rely on human psychology to even have a purpose. Outside of Earth - they're basically useless. Gamora is useful to the Guardians and the Avengers because of her ability to traverse and succeed among much more than 1 planet in the galaxy. She already has that function does not need to adapt to be useful outside of Earth. She's not a "weak one".

The only way the weak ones are going to survive Endgame is probably because of the Iron Man and Ant-Man technologies. Not based on purely their own merits. Which is why they're weak and IMO need to go.

[Gatsby77]

57 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

No, I think that you're missing the entire point. That is that Gamora is a superior physical specimen, and not a "weak" character in the cosmic MCU. Barton and Romanoff are the weakest "hero" characters that rely on human psychology to even have a purpose. Outside of Earth - they're basically useless. Gamora is useful to the Guardians and the Avengers because of her ability to traverse and succeed among much more than 1 planet in the galaxy. She already has that function does not need to adapt to be useful outside of Earth. She's not a "weak one".

The only way the weak ones are going to survive Endgame is probably because of the Iron Man and Ant-Man technologies. Not based on purely their own merits. Which is why they're weak and IMO need to go.

That logic is idiotic.

Following it, you'd eliminate not just Black Widow and Hawkeye, but also Falcon, Spider-Man, Black Panther, Nick Fury, and Winter Soldier -- similarly under-powered heroes who are basically useless in space and/or on a cosmic level.

You all touched on the basic uselessness of Star Lord (who is, albeit, half-God) and Rocket earlier.

Big picture?

There are *many* compelling stories yet to be told in the Marvel universe, both earth-bound and cosmic.

And knocking out those who few non- or under-powered ones because they may not be suited for say...battle on Mars.

Also - Natasha's already proven the value of her psychological spy skills in the first Avengers film, both in first bringing in Banner, and later in tricking Loki.