Jon Berk collection to be auctioned. 18 18

[tth2]

19 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Best idea ever! 

Since I have been after Amazing Mysteries Funnies V2#4 for the longest while now and I currently have the high bid at $320, it would be greatly appreciated if you could please arrange with all of the other potential bidders not to place any more bids so that I can wing this grail of a book for $320. 

Please tell all of the other bidders to ignore the last 2 auction results at something approaching $3,600 and $5,400 respectively, since they are no longer relevant due to this new rule we now have in place. 

I can absolutely guarantee that I will not bid on this book.

[lou_fine]

21 minutes ago, tth2 said:

I can absolutely guarantee that I will not bid on this book.

Did you not say the same thing about the Church copy of Mystery Men 3?   

[Zolnerowich]

8 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, of course not, since a lot of the long time old school collectors like Jon and Magik with his current Heritage auction offerings don't really believe in pressing their books.

Just take a look at the All-Select 4 which went from CGC 0.5 Poor to a raw Qualified Fine on Worldwide or with the Amazing Man 21 which went from restored with color touch to a scrapped out unrestored and was still able to retain its same Fine - condition grading on Worldwide.  No point looking to buy since I believe they are both already resold at pretty much double the Berk CC prices. 

Goes to show that CGC is extremely punishing when it comes to grading unpressed books as most of Berk's books present much nicer relative to their CGC assigned grades, as confirmed by most board members here who have been pleasantly surprised after receiving their books in the mail. 

I'm really not getting all this talk about CGC undergrading books. Admittedly it's a small sample size, but the grades for the two books I've received so far from the Berk auction appear to be on target, +/- a half point.  I know I sound like a shill for CGC, but I don't really see why CGC would consciously assign lower grades to the books. Such a strategy undermines the whole point of CGC, which is to provide an "objective" assessment of the quality of the book. Assuming that the dealers (I love the dealers!) have a better handle on how to grade unpressed books just seems non-sensical, for numerous reasons. Can one possibly imagine that Worldwide would have assigned a deslabbed Berk book a lower grade? The idea that a CGC 0.5 Poor can be turned into to a raw Qualified Fine just sounds like so much hocus pocus.

I suppose I've got the late-nite grumps.

 

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, Zolnerowich said:

9 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, of course not, since a lot of the long time old school collectors like Jon and Magik with his current Heritage auction offerings don't really believe in pressing their books.

Just take a look at the All-Select 4 which went from CGC 0.5 Poor to a raw Qualified Fine on Worldwide or with the Amazing Man 21 which went from restored with color touch to a scrapped out unrestored and was still able to retain its same Fine - condition grading on Worldwide.  No point looking to buy since I believe they are both already resold at pretty much double the Berk CC prices. 

Goes to show that CGC is extremely punishing when it comes to grading unpressed books as most of Berk's books present much nicer relative to their CGC assigned grades, as confirmed by most board members here who have been pleasantly surprised after receiving their books in the mail. 

I'm really not getting all this talk about CGC undergrading books. Admittedly it's a small sample size, but the grades for the two books I've received so far from the Berk auction appear to be on target, +/- a half point.  I know I sound like a shill for CGC, but I don't really see why CGC would consciously assign lower grades to the books. Such a strategy undermines the whole point of CGC, which is to provide an "objective" assessment of the quality of the book. Assuming that the dealers (I love the dealers!) have a better handle on how to grade unpressed books just seems non-sensical, for numerous reasons. Can one possibly imagine that Worldwide would have assigned a deslabbed Berk book a lower grade? The idea that a CGC 0.5 Poor can be turned into to a raw Qualified Fine just sounds like so much hocus pocus.

I suppose I've got the late-nite grumps.

No worries as it's just like hocus pocus when you say the magic word:  Abracadabra 

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?referral=EAlist&id=716330&title=ALLSELECT COMICS

http://www.wwcomics.com/comicdetail.asp?Product_ID=AllSelectComics_4_58197

Seriously though, as you can see, Worldwide must have simply deslabbed the book and used their "magic" to maximize the potential on this particular book here.  It's good to note that Ritter has now gone back in and given the Jon Berk designation back to all of these books which he has deslabbed to resell back into the marketplace and thereby allows collectors to maintain the provenance of the book if they so wish. 

With respect to CGC's grading, it should be pointed out that I never said that they intentionally undergrade unpressed books.  It's more a case of CGC seeing these almost invisible non-color breaking stresses or creases as a significant defect and hence downgrading for them accordingly.  Flippers and dealers in the know will happily purchase these books, press out these creases and stress lines, and presto, you have a higher graded copy of the same book since the defects are now no longer there.

Since the CGC grading standards are not published and hence not official public knowledge, they are in reality subject to change or fine-tuning at any point in time.  With the new grading team now firmly in place since last year, this is probably why books have been presenting better than their assigned grades on a much more frequent basis as compared to before.  I personally believe this particular defect in terms of the non-color breaking creases has moved higher up in the CGC Defect Hit Chart when it comes to grading now.  But then again, that's just paranoid me. 

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by lou_fine

[walclark]

My wins from the auction finally arrived.  I think this is my favorite.  The color palette and the detailing on the samurai are .

[Jayman]

4 minutes ago, walclark said:

My wins from the auction finally arrived.  I think this is my favorite.  The color palette and the detailing on the samurai are .

That's a beautiful book, congrats!

And interesting to know that a book can achieve a 7.5 at least with a detached centerfold.

[sagii]

53 minutes ago, walclark said:

My wins from the auction finally arrived.  I think this is my favorite.  The color palette and the detailing on the samurai are .

Stunning book Walter! Great selection sir.

[entalmighty1]

1 hour ago, walclark said:

My wins from the auction finally arrived.  I think this is my favorite.  The color palette and the detailing on the samurai are .

I was one of the underbidders on this one.  Glad it went to a fellow Tennessean!

 

[lou_fine]

On 7/14/2017 at 5:33 PM, jbcomicbox said:

OTHER LITTLE ITEMS ON GREEN GIANT

 

I purchased my copy in MAY 1981 from John Snyder.  (Early on, John was my "mentor" to a large extent.  John was fantastic in introducing me to Centaurs and introducing me to certain comics, and, with the input of Steve Geppi, he induced  me to obtain my  first Church books.  Only when you observed a Church copy up close did one realize how special these books ARE.  I cannot say enough about the guidance they showed me.  Certainly, they were special advocates of comic books as comic books and as a hobby and entertainment. The made available at one point or another Church books done by Fine with Quality and Fox publications.  I will always be thankful to them for the opportunities they gave me.

Hey Jon;

So, you was one of the lucky collectors who managed to hook up with John early enough to acquire some of the beautiful Church books he had managed to acquire during his days as a comic book broker. 

As you had correctly stated, John was a perfect mentor for an early collector such as myself when I first hooked up with him back in 1987.  I was lucky enough to answered his one and only ever ad in the CBG and also the first ad I ever responded to since he had listed both Bob Overstreet and Steve Geppi as references in his ad.  I called him up and ask about the Mint or NM copy of Playboy #1 he had listed for $1,000 and was told by John that it was already gone.  Same for the uber HG set of Hawkman #1 - #10 which he had listed for $110 .  He then said that I should probably try something earlier as he still had a VF/NM copy of New Book of Comics #2 with blazing snow white pages which was apparently nicer than the Mile High Copy (at that point I did not even know what a Mile High was) and even higher than Overstreet's top of guide listing for the book which was only a VF at the time.  Needless to say, I was absolutely astounded by the book when I received it in the mail.  An absolutely gorgeous squarebound cardboard cover book with 100 pages and my first GA book which was a perfect fit since I had always wanted to acquire some of the pre-hero DC books after reading that amazing article by Gary Carter a few years earlier in the Overstreet guide. 

Although I did acquire other wonderful GA books from John over a period of time after that first transaction, the thing I would remember and treasured the most were the hours we would spend talking on the phone.  He would tell me about some of the different pedigrees that were in existence at the time including all of the Church DC keys he had acquired directly from Chuck.  In addition, he would also tell me fun and interesting stories about some of the early pioneer collectors such as Overstreet, Geppi, the Carter brothers, Anderson, Rozanski, etc. and some of the books he had transacted with them.  Since he knew that I had only a very limited budget, he would emphasized the importance of building a collection focusing on keys, classic covers, and the highest grades possible whenever they became available.  It would have been easy to spend your entire budget on mid-grade mid-run books, only to find out that you had no money left when the right books did come along.  And this was all at a time before the Gerber was out there, CGC was still well over a decade away,  and also when the spread between bottom and top of guide was only 1 to 6 or something small like that.  He constantly emphasized to me that the marketplace would one day realize how truly rare the high grade books were and that I should be targeting these copies because the current 1:6 spread will be a fraction of what they would one day be in the future.

As you have already stated, John was always an absolute  true gentleman and I cannot say enough about the guidance and patience which he showed me in helping me to build my collection based upon the tenets he taught me.  The only collecting mistake I ever made with John was entirely my fault and one that I still regret to this day.  During one of our phone conversations around 1988, he mentioned to me that he had just acquired a high grade set of Spidey 2 - 10 from a long-time private collector who had slowly and meticulously upgraded it over the years into this final compilation and that I could have it for the grand sum of only $1,000.  Even after thinking about it for 2 whole weeks, I still said NO for various reasons not worth mentioning at this point, except it turned out to be my greatest collecting regret in terms of passing up on a set of books.    Especially when you considered all of those key "firsts" in that short run as you must know since you are still keeping your own Spidey 1 - 11 run, even after selling your other quality books off.

For me, John was my fountain of knowledge and someone who opened my eyes into the world of vintage investment quality comic book collecting and for that, I will be forever indebted to him.  When I look at some of the books in my small collection, I still can't help but to think of John.  It's rather sad that John is no longer active in the hobby after retiring from Diamond Int'l Galleries, as I am sure he would have been a wonderful mentor to some of the new and younger collectors starting up in the vintage comic book market today, like he was with some of the new collectors of decades past. 

 

[podboy66]

This is great stuff.  Thanks for sharing your history with John.

Edited July 21, 2017 by podboy66

[Artboy99]

On ‎2017‎/‎07‎/‎12 at 4:34 PM, MrBedrock said:

Why does the Berk info matter? I've known Jon a long time and admire and respect him greatly. I am super happy that he acquired the books that he did. But at the point that he decided to sell them they are no longer from the "Berk Collection". It's nice if you want to track them back, but if that is the case then all of the Fox Church books are from "The Rowe Collection", or "The Patterson Collection", or as they were split up after that "The Evans Collection" or "The Nicholson Collection", or part of "The Sparkle City Inventory", or "The Metropolis Inventory" or...you get the point. Berk was a great custodian for a time. But now all of us who have purchased them have books that Berk formerly owned that are now part of our collections. And if Ritter cracks a few and sells them raw, no big deal. None of the books that Berk sold before this auction have any notation that he used to own them. They are still books that Berk used to own. They aren't worth more, or less.

 

based on the prices many of his books received I would say otherwise.

[Sqeggs]

9 hours ago, walclark said:

My wins from the auction finally arrived.  I think this is my favorite.  The color palette and the detailing on the samurai are .

Another S&S beauty. 

[jbcomicbox]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Hey Jon;

So, you was one of the lucky collectors who managed to hook up with John early enough to acquire some of the beautiful Church books he had managed to acquire during his days as a comic book broker. 

As you had correctly stated, John was a perfect mentor for an early collector such as myself when I first hooked up with him back in 1987.  I was lucky enough to answered his one and only ever ad in the CBG and also the first ad I ever responded to since he had listed both Bob Overstreet and Steve Geppi as references in his ad.  I called him up and ask about the Mint or NM copy of Playboy #1 he had listed for $1,000 and was told by John that it was already gone.  Same for the uber HG set of Hawkman #1 - #10 which he had listed for $110 .  He then said that I should probably try something earlier as he still had a VF/NM copy of New Book of Comics #2 with blazing snow white pages which was apparently nicer than the Mile High Copy (at that point I did not even know what a Mile High was) and even higher than Overstreet's top of guide listing for the book which was only a VF at the time.  Needless to say, I was absolutely astounded by the book when I received it in the mail.  An absolutely gorgeous squarebound cardboard cover book with 100 pages and my first GA book which was a perfect fit since I had always wanted to acquire some of the pre-hero DC books after reading that amazing article by Gary Carter a few years earlier in the Overstreet guide. 

Although I did acquire other wonderful GA books from John over a period of time after that first transaction, the thing I would remember and treasured the most were the hours we would spend talking on the phone.  He would tell me about some of the different pedigrees that were in existence at the time including all of the Church DC keys he had acquired directly from Chuck.  In addition, he would also tell me fun and interesting stories about some of the early pioneer collectors such as Overstreet, Geppi, the Carter brothers, Anderson, Rozanski, etc. and some of the books he had transacted with them.  Since he knew that I had only a very limited budget, he would emphasized the importance of building a collection focusing on keys, classic covers, and the highest grades possible whenever they became available.  It would have been easy to spend your entire budget on mid-grade mid-run books, only to find out that you had no money left when the right books did come along.  And this was all at a time before the Gerber was out there, CGC was still well over a decade away,  and also when the spread between bottom and top of guide was only 1 to 6 or something small like that.  He constantly emphasized to me that the marketplace would one day realize how truly rare the high grade books were and that I should be targeting these copies because the current 1:6 spread will be a fraction of what they would one day be in the future.

As you have already stated, John was always an absolute  true gentleman and I cannot say enough about the guidance and patience which he showed me in helping me to build my collection based upon the tenets he taught me.  The only collecting mistake I ever made with John was entirely my fault and one that I still regret to this day.  During one of our phone conversations around 1988, he mentioned to me that he had just acquired a high grade set of Spidey 2 - 10 from a long-time private collector who had slowly and meticulously upgraded it over the years into this final compilation and that I could have it for the grand sum of only $1,000.  Even after thinking about it for 2 whole weeks, I still said NO for various reasons not worth mentioning at this point, except it turned out to be my greatest collecting regret in terms of passing up on a set of books.    Especially when you considered all of those key "firsts" in that short run as you must know since you are still keeping your own Spidey 1 - 11 run, even after selling your other quality books off.

For me, John was my fountain of knowledge and someone who opened my eyes into the world of vintage investment quality comic book collecting and for that, I will be forever indebted to him.  When I look at some of the books in my small collection, I still can't help but to think of John.  It's rather sad that John is no longer active in the hobby after retiring from Diamond Int'l Galleries, as I am sure he would have been a wonderful mentor to some of the new and younger collectors starting up in the vintage comic book market today, like he was with some of the new collectors of decades past. 

 

Well stated.

 

 John lectured me about you could buy comics and sell them for more money. He maintained, of course, was the only thing you would have is "money".  I guess I did not listen hard enough to him.......Jon

 

[Sqeggs]

17 hours ago, Zolnerowich said:

I'm really not getting all this talk about CGC undergrading books. Admittedly it's a small sample size, but the grades for the two books I've received so far from the Berk auction appear to be on target, +/- a half point.  I know I sound like a shill for CGC, but I don't really see why CGC would consciously assign lower grades to the books. Such a strategy undermines the whole point of CGC, which is to provide an "objective" assessment of the quality of the book. Assuming that the dealers (I love the dealers!) have a better handle on how to grade unpressed books just seems non-sensical, for numerous reasons. Can one possibly imagine that Worldwide would have assigned a deslabbed Berk book a lower grade? The idea that a CGC 0.5 Poor can be turned into to a raw Qualified Fine just sounds like so much hocus pocus.

I suppose I've got the late-nite grumps.

 

I'm with you Zol, old boy.  What people call tight periods and loose periods are mostly just random variations in grading.  I think nearly every period since CGC opened its doors has been described as tight by some people and loose by others.

[buttock]

18 hours ago, Zolnerowich said:

I'm really not getting all this talk about CGC undergrading books. Admittedly it's a small sample size, but the grades for the two books I've received so far from the Berk auction appear to be on target, +/- a half point.  I know I sound like a shill for CGC, but I don't really see why CGC would consciously assign lower grades to the books. Such a strategy undermines the whole point of CGC, which is to provide an "objective" assessment of the quality of the book.

 

CGC has a massive interest in undergrading books, particularly those with "improvable" defects.  If you owned a business, would you rather have 2800 transactions or 2800 transactions with another 4-500 repeat transactions that use your sister service for even more transactions?   The "point" of CGC varies depending on your perspective.  For a collector it's an objective assessment.  For an employee or owner/investor, the point is to make money.   

[sfcityduck]

19 hours ago, Zolnerowich said:

I'm really not getting all this talk about CGC undergrading books. Admittedly it's a small sample size, but the grades for the two books I've received so far from the Berk auction appear to be on target, +/- a half point.  I know I sound like a shill for CGC, but I don't really see why CGC would consciously assign lower grades to the books. Such a strategy undermines the whole point of CGC, which is to provide an "objective" assessment of the quality of the book. Assuming that the dealers (I love the dealers!) have a better handle on how to grade unpressed books just seems non-sensical, for numerous reasons. Can one possibly imagine that Worldwide would have assigned a deslabbed Berk book a lower grade? The idea that a CGC 0.5 Poor can be turned into to a raw Qualified Fine just sounds like so much hocus pocus.

I suppose I've got the late-nite grumps.

 

Grading services have been accused in the past of utilzing a business model which encourages buyers to "break out" under-graded collectibles (especially coins) and re-submit them to get a higher grade (and hefty increase in price).  The advantage to the grading service under such a scenario is that it receives multiple fees.  Obviously, there are stories of notable books in the hobby, the record 9.0 Action 1 being the most notable, which were cracked open more than once to achieve higher grades on re-submission.  Wasn't the Action 1 once an 8.0 and 8.5?  I forget.  Obviously, services that offer cleaning and pressing would also benefit from "untreated" books being graded harshly as it would increase the incentive to "realize the potential" of an "untreated" book.  So, I'm not sure that it is entirely accurate to conclude that utilizing a more critical eye for the grading of an "untreated" book would undermine the business model of a grading service.  It might actually drive more revenue to the grading service.

[Robot Man]

17 hours ago, buttock said:

CGC has a massive interest in undergrading books, particularly those with "improvable" defects.  If you owned a business, would you rather have 2800 transactions or 2800 transactions with another 4-500 repeat transactions that use your sister service for even more transactions?   The "point" of CGC varies depending on your perspective.  For a collector it's an objective assessment.  For an employee or owner/investor, the point is to make money.   

Very troubling thought. CGC lost a little of my faith when they brought Matt in to knowlingly "manulipate" books for grading. All of a sudden the rules changed and because of the mighty dollar we have all gone along with it.

[lou_fine]

19 hours ago, jbcomicbox said:

Well stated.

 John lectured me about you could buy comics and sell them for more money. He maintained, of course, was the only thing you would have is "money".  I guess I did not listen hard enough to him.......Jon

 

When it comes to selling, John taught me something else. 

Every now and then, you have to sell something...........if only to convince the "better half" that you can actually make some money on these silly books.  Well, guess what.....I actually did after several years and then she had absolutely no problems with me buying more after that.  In fact, I got the idea that she was actually hinting or even trying to encourage me to buy more. 

 

Jon;

I think in your particular case, it's really more a case of the student becoming the master. 

From all of your thoughtful postings on the boards here along with all of your scholarly and well-researched articles that you have authored for the various comic book related magazines over the decades, I personally believe you have become a "mentor" for many of us in this wonderful comic book collecting hobby of ours. 

Many thanks again and keep on posting!!!

 

 

 

 

[Sqeggs]

On 7/22/2017 at 0:38 PM, Robot Man said:

Very troubling thought. CGC lost a little of my faith when they brought Matt in to knowlingly "manulipate" books for grading. All of a sudden the rules changed and because of the mighty dollar we have all gone along with it.

Which rules changed?  Serious question.

CGC never counted pressing or dry cleaning as restoration.  Color touch, chemical cleaning, and that stuff still counts as restoration not matter who does it.

[Robot Man]

1 hour ago, Sqeggs said:

Which rules changed?  Serious question.

CGC never counted pressing or dry cleaning as restoration.  Color touch, chemical cleaning, and that stuff still counts as restoration not matter who does it.

Only because they couldn't detect it. It is altering a book from it's current state from being around 50 or 60 years. Why else would honest sellers state a book has never been pressed? It make a difference to many collectors. The real reason we turn a blind eye now is simply because of the large bump in profit to a book that has had it's "potential" improved. With the Jon Berk sale behind us we can now see this already happening. An interesting note is now how "qualified" and "restored" books seem to have become a little more "acceptable" CGC has found they can make a lot more money by doing it themselves. They know books have been "manupilated" in their own house. We as lemmings now accept it to be OK if the right amount of profit is realized.