Marvel Decides Who The Real Fans Are At C2E2 – No Window Bags For Comics Signatures! 5 5

[revat]

3 minutes ago, Red84 said:

A ss book is worth more than a non-ss book.  The artist is charging for a product.  To get a more valuable product you have to pay more. My take on it.

but depending on the grade, is it worth more after including grading fees and shipping and insurance?  yes the 9.8's generally will turn a 'profit' (though for the average non-key book maybe $5-$15), but does that factor in all the costs of the risk and time?  Is a creator aware of all of these other issues? should they be to make the most informed decision before risking the potential alienation of some of their fans?  For 99% of books getting CGC SS'd, the largest driver of profitability is grade, not the actual sig.  Do creators understand that?

They see a book they just wrote last year with a $4 price tag.  Then they see it CGC SS 9.8 on ebay on sale for $70. 

1.  Well, first I've gotta spend $4 plus tax and gotta select the high grade copy, not to mention my time of going to the store and gas (minimal admittedly, but not nothing). 

2.  Plus cost of bag and board (again, minimal).

3.  Gotta go to a con, includes, ticket (possible fees and tax), gas, parking, food (admittedly spread out over all the activities I do at the con)

4.  Grab a witness, Wait in line (opportunity cost of my time at the con which I paid for).

5.  Submit which is probably minimum $35 including shipping and insurance and grading and fees.

So obviously we're at minimum of about $40, but probably more, depending out how much volume you have in books or other profit seeking activities you did at the con.  But not unreasonable to say you've got $45 into the book.  Now you're trying to sell for $70, but it hasn't actually sold.  SO you end up going best offer for $65, then 10% off for ebay and paypal fees, and now your revenue is $58.50, your cost is $45.  Your profit is $13.50, which you have to pay income tax on.  AND That's if you're LUCKY and got a 9.8, or you didn't pay $7 or $10 because the comic was a variant, and IF the artist doesn't charge?  And that's with a minimum 2 month turnover.  How many people are really trying to do this? How much money is that artist really leaving on the table?  Isn't it more likely they saw the difference between the cover price and the selling price on ebay and didn't think through all the other factors?  Or didn't understand the market value for an expensive variant with a low printed price?

Yes, there are facilitators who do fancy pre-sells and private signings who do make significant CGC SS money based on volume, but the private signings don't factor (or shouldn't) into con lines, and the best of those facilitators almost universally pay some amount of money if they're getting volume even if the signing is free.

 

[revat]

also, many of the more 'true' fans I know, knowing they're going to a con to get books signed, might get a few extra copies on top of their normal reading copies, just to get signed, submit, or both, both because I might want multiple copies, and/or I want to ensure that I get the 9.8 I'm really looking for.  And getting 3 copies (after paying for them with my own hard-earned money) of my fave book signed, knowing I can sell the other two doesn't make me any less of a true fan, its just how I collect.  The risk of potentially turning off that type of fan.... if my goal is truly to bring to joy to my customers and fans, why risk it by potentially letting someone who cared enough to come see me at a show feel like they were treated unfairly.  I'm not against charging, or book limits, but doing anything that looks like treating someone unfairly or judging they way they collect.... there's just too many unknown circumstances and ways to potentially turn a customer off, at least from my perspective to risk it, vs the alleged money left on the table.   

[IntoAnother]

56 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I get what you're saying, but I will always...always side with the creator in these situations. There are people who make a good portion of their living doing the SS books and selling them. I have zero issue if a creator wants to make some extra money off their signature. God bless the creators who will sign for free regardless or just ask for a small donation for something like the CLDF...but I will absolutely never hold it against a creator for trying to make an extra buck off of their own name.

Why would you always side with the creators?

These are individuals who are paid for the work they do. Many of them also sell original art, sell merchandise, get paid to attend shows, get books optioned, don't pay booth fees, have paid photo sessions, etc...

How is that not enough gravy for them?

We already bought the book and supported them and the company they work for. Many times we are also paying for flights, hotels, food, Uber's, admission, etc...just to get to that booth to lay our books in front of them. Yet that doesn't ever seem to be taken into consideration or spoken of. 

[letsgrumble]

40 minutes ago, revat said:

 

1 hour ago, Red84 said:

A ss book is worth more than a non-ss book.  The artist is charging for a product.  To get a more valuable product you have to pay more. My take on it.

but depending on the grade, is it worth more after including grading fees and shipping and insurance?  yes the 9.8's generally will turn a 'profit' (though for the average non-key book maybe $5-$15), but does that factor in all the costs of the risk and time?  Is a creator aware of all of these other issues? should they be to make the most informed decision before risking the potential alienation of some of their fans?  For 99% of books getting CGC SS'd, the largest driver of profitability is grade, not the actual sig.  Do creators understand that?

They see a book they just wrote last year with a $4 price tag.  Then they see it CGC SS 9.8 on ebay on sale for $70. 

1.  Well, first I've gotta spend $4 plus tax and gotta select the high grade copy, not to mention my time of going to the store and gas (minimal admittedly, but not nothing). 

2.  Plus cost of bag and board (again, minimal).

3.  Gotta go to a con, includes, ticket (possible fees and tax), gas, parking, food (admittedly spread out over all the activities I do at the con)

4.  Grab a witness, Wait in line (opportunity cost of my time at the con which I paid for).

5.  Submit which is probably minimum $35 including shipping and insurance and grading and fees.

So obviously we're at minimum of about $40, but probably more, depending out how much volume you have in books or other profit seeking activities you did at the con.  But not unreasonable to say you've got $45 into the book.  Now you're trying to sell for $70, but it hasn't actually sold.  SO you end up going best offer for $65, then 10% off for ebay and paypal fees, and now your revenue is $58.50, your cost is $45.  Your profit is $13.50, which you have to pay income tax on.  AND That's if you're LUCKY and got a 9.8, or you didn't pay $7 or $10 because the comic was a variant, and IF the artist doesn't charge?  And that's with a minimum 2 month turnover.  How many people are really trying to do this? How much money is that artist really leaving on the table?  Isn't it more likely they saw the difference between the cover price and the selling price on ebay and didn't think through all the other factors?  Or didn't understand the market value for an expensive variant with a low printed price?

Yes, there are facilitators who do fancy pre-sells and private signings who do make significant CGC SS money based on volume, but the private signings don't factor (or shouldn't) into con lines, and the best of those facilitators almost universally pay some amount of money if they're getting volume even if the signing is free.

 

Yup, that's the SS game. Lot of preparation, time, and money. Mostly done for the love of collecting, or for turning a profit. Haven't got the profit thing figured out yet. 

[Logan510]

7 minutes ago, IntoAnother said:

Why would you always side with the creators?

These are individuals who are paid for the work they do. Many of them also sell original art, sell merchandise, get paid to attend shows, get books optioned, don't pay booth fees, have paid photo sessions, etc...

How is that not enough gravy for them?

We already bought the book and supported them and the company they work for. Many times we are also paying for flights, hotels, food, Uber's, admission, etc...just to get to that booth to lay our books in front of them. Yet that doesn't ever seem to be taken into consideration or spoken of. 

Why should it? We want something from them that they are not required to give us. Many comic book artists sold original art for almost nothing back in the day, just to see some of that same art sell for hundreds and / or thousands of dollars years later, which they received not a penny of. If some creator wants to make an extra $20 to sign his name I have absolutely no issue with it and I will support their right to do so.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Logan510

[revat]

3 minutes ago, letsgrumble said:

Yup, that's the SS game. Lot of preparation, time, and money. Mostly done for the love of collecting, or for turning a profit. Haven't got the profit thing figured out yet. 

I didn't even include the time (and skill) spent prepping the book for CGC SS, the space that book(s) takes in my house, and time and expense taken to sell the book and ship the book (supplies, postage, gas).  All of those are real costs and RISKS.

[Logan510]

56 minutes ago, revat said:

but depending on the grade, is it worth more after including grading fees and shipping and insurance?  yes the 9.8's generally will turn a 'profit' (though for the average non-key book maybe $5-$15), but does that factor in all the costs of the risk and time?  Is a creator aware of all of these other issues? should they be to make the most informed decision before risking the potential alienation of some of their fans?  For 99% of books getting CGC SS'd, the largest driver of profitability is grade, not the actual sig.  Do creators understand that?

They see a book they just wrote last year with a $4 price tag.  Then they see it CGC SS 9.8 on ebay on sale for $70. 

1.  Well, first I've gotta spend $4 plus tax and gotta select the high grade copy, not to mention my time of going to the store and gas (minimal admittedly, but not nothing). 

2.  Plus cost of bag and board (again, minimal).

3.  Gotta go to a con, includes, ticket (possible fees and tax), gas, parking, food (admittedly spread out over all the activities I do at the con)

4.  Grab a witness, Wait in line (opportunity cost of my time at the con which I paid for).

5.  Submit which is probably minimum $35 including shipping and insurance and grading and fees.

So obviously we're at minimum of about $40, but probably more, depending out how much volume you have in books or other profit seeking activities you did at the con.  But not unreasonable to say you've got $45 into the book.  Now you're trying to sell for $70, but it hasn't actually sold.  SO you end up going best offer for $65, then 10% off for ebay and paypal fees, and now your revenue is $58.50, your cost is $45.  Your profit is $13.50, which you have to pay income tax on.  AND That's if you're LUCKY and got a 9.8, or you didn't pay $7 or $10 because the comic was a variant, and IF the artist doesn't charge?  And that's with a minimum 2 month turnover.  How many people are really trying to do this? How much money is that artist really leaving on the table?  Isn't it more likely they saw the difference between the cover price and the selling price on ebay and didn't think through all the other factors?  Or didn't understand the market value for an expensive variant with a low printed price?

Yes, there are facilitators who do fancy pre-sells and private signings who do make significant CGC SS money based on volume, but the private signings don't factor (or shouldn't) into con lines, and the best of those facilitators almost universally pay some amount of money if they're getting volume even if the signing is free.

 

IMHO it doesn't matter if it's worth more or not. I would not expect a creator to give a krap what the SS guys have to go through to get their books done. We want something from them that they are not required to provide.

[Logan510]

3 minutes ago, revat said:

I didn't even include the time (and skill) spent prepping the book for CGC SS, the space that book(s) takes in my house, and time and expense taken to sell the book and ship the book (supplies, postage, gas).  All of those are real costs and RISKS.

And the creators shouldn't care for one second about any of that IMHO.

[letsgrumble]

1 minute ago, revat said:

 

7 minutes ago, letsgrumble said:

Yup, that's the SS game. Lot of preparation, time, and money. Mostly done for the love of collecting, or for turning a profit. Haven't got the profit thing figured out yet. 

I didn't even include the time (and skill) spent prepping the book for CGC SS, the space that book(s) takes in my house, and time and expense taken to sell the book and ship the book (supplies, postage, gas).  All of those are real costs and RISKS.

 

By the time you sell, it becomes more about cost recovery than profit.

[revat]

Just now, Logan510 said:

And the creators shouldn't care for one second about any of that IMHO.

I agree they certainly aren't required to care, but it goes to mindset.  IF a creator wants to charge, they absolutely should (in a fair or unfair way), if they are comfortable with the way the market reacts.  BUT if they are basing their desire to charge based on incorrect assumptions, wouldn't it be better for them and their fans (in most cases) if they were making their economic decisions based on accurate information?  Its certainly their right and prerogative to make any decision based on limited or incorrect information, but do you think they'd still feel the same if they knew they were in many cases souring 'real' fans, and not just namless faceless corporate dealers/flippers?

I guess that's my point, not that they shouldn't charge in any way that they want, just that I believe most creators want to create a positive fan experience AND benefit financially, and reasonably considering more factors will lead to better decisions overall.

[Logan510]

2 minutes ago, revat said:

I agree they certainly aren't required to care, but it goes to mindset.  IF a creator wants to charge, they absolutely should (in a fair or unfair way), if they are comfortable with the way the market reacts.  BUT if they are basing their desire to charge based on incorrect assumptions, wouldn't it be better for them and their fans (in most cases) if they were making their economic decisions based on accurate information?  Its certainly their right and prerogative to make any decision based on limited or incorrect information, but do you think they'd still feel the same if they knew they were in many cases souring 'real' fans, and not just namless faceless corporate dealers/flippers?

I guess that's my point, not that they shouldn't charge in any way that they want, just that I believe most creators want to create a positive fan experience AND benefit financially, and reasonably considering more factors will lead to better decisions overall.

How are they going to know who's a flipper and who isn't? I don't have any imperical data on this, but which is the higher %? Fans who just want a book signed by a creator they like vs the dealers / flippers? I would like to imagine it's the former, but then I recall the pre CGC days of guys wheel carting short boxes around and dumping 100 books in front of George Perez which he happily signed for free.

I have no issue with letting the creator discover what their market is. Like I said before I have to assume if they price it too high, eventually they'll lower it to see if they get more action.

[IntoAnother]

18 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Why should it? We want something from them that they are not required to give us. Many comic book artists sold original art for almost nothing back in the day, just to see some of that same art sell for hundreds and / or thousands of dollars years later, which they received not a penny of. If some creator wants to make an extra $20 to sign his name I have absolutely no issue with it and I will support their right to do so.

You are correct, they have no obligation to provide up with anything. Just as I have no obligation to support them in any way. I am merely pointing out a few things that often go without being mentioned. 

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, IntoAnother said:

You are correct, they have no obligation to provide up with anything. Just as I have no obligation to support them in any way. I am merely pointing out a few things that often go without being mentioned. 

Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the fan who just wants his book signed and slabbed for his collection. That's the guy who's really getting the short end of the stick in this deal. I don't have too much sympathy for the guys crying about their bottom line being affected though.

[revat]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

How are they going to know who's a flipper and who isn't? I don't have any imperical data on this, but which is the higher %? Fans who just want a book signed by a creator they like vs the dealers / flippers? I would like to imagine it's the former, but then I recall the pre CGC days of guys wheel carting short boxes around and dumping 100 books in front of George Perez which he happily signed for free.

I have no issue with letting the creator discover what their market is. Like I said before I have to assume if they price it too high, eventually they'll lower it to see if they get more action.

I don't know what the percentage is either.  And I do think its most likely a small percentage of CGC SS (both flippers and fans, and in some case agents) who have abused the process or spread misinformation and ruined for the rest of us.  And most artists will never know that someone who would have gone to their booth and paid $5 per sig left that day getting nothing signed and with a bad taste in their mouth because they were charging $20 per sig for CGC SS.

I haven't done the numbers or anything, and I understand the rights, I just don't think in most cases the risk of alienating ANY potential fans (because they perceive you to be unfair or judgmental) is worth it from a financial perspective.  Its hard to sell comics now, and these creators make their LIVING from fan support of their books.  Extra marginal CGC SS money (on TOP of what you charge for non-cgc) is nice, but I think I'd rather have the guy buy 3 extra issues of my comics to get signed even though I make less money overall than pay me more for the sig because he might sort of have a chance and making $10-$20 by selling my signature on his signed book.

[Logan510]

2 minutes ago, revat said:

I don't know what the percentage is either.  And I do think its most likely a small percentage of CGC SS (both flippers and fans, and in some case agents) who have abused the process or spread misinformation and ruined for the rest of us.  And most artists will never know that someone who would have gone to their booth and paid $5 per sig left that day getting nothing signed and with a bad taste in their mouth because they were charging $20 per sig for CGC SS.

I haven't done the numbers or anything, and I understand the rights, I just don't think in most cases the risk of alienating ANY potential fans (because they perceive you to be unfair or judgmental) is worth it from a financial perspective.  Its hard to sell comics now, and these creators make their LIVING from fan support of their books.  Extra marginal CGC SS money (on TOP of what you charge for non-cgc) is nice, but I think I'd rather have the guy buy 3 extra issues of my comics to get signed even though I make less money overall than pay me more for the sig because he might sort of have a chance and making $10-$20 by selling my signature on his signed book.

I guess it depends on the creator as well. Some of these older school creators are either not currently working in the industry or they are working on the outskirts of the industry. I do not begrudge a guy trying to make $20 off his name from signing a book he worked on ( and made next to nothing at the time depending ) from 30-40+ years ago.

 

There's no way to please all the fans anyway. I remember when John Byrne set his limit to 15 books a day per family ( people were actually bringing 15 books for their toddler to get signed when it was 15 per person ) and people were griping and moaning about it and what he "owed" the fans.

[IntoAnother]

31 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the fan who just wants his book signed and slabbed for his collection. That's the guy who's really getting the short end of the stick in this deal. I don't have too much sympathy for the guys crying about their bottom line being affected though.

I didn't assume you didn't feel for the fan, as I'm sure you are one of more than a few creators yourself. I'm also certainly not crying about the bottom line and hope what I said didn't come across as such. 

Many of us fans are just sick and tired of the greed of a select few and I've had enough of it. I'm actually really lucky as the majority of creators who I value the most do not charge. Yet a growing number of creators will no longer be getting my support. Especially when they become part of a price gouging stable.

 

[jcjames]

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

And the creators shouldn't care for one second about any of that IMHO.

Continue that thinking to it's logical conclusion....

The artist shouldn't care for one second about:

1) how much time I spent researching the market and selecting a good, potentially in-demand book that the artist worked on, 

2) how much time I spent looking for and selecting good HG potentially-9.8 candidate of his book,

3) how much money I spent buying the book and the protective storage materials for it,

4) how much effort I spent to prevent it from damage transporting the book from the place-of-purchase to home and then to the con,

5) how much I paid to get to the con and then enter the con,

6) how much time I spent waiting in his line,

7) how much effort I spent AGAIN preventing damage to the book while waiting in line, while getting his signature, and while getting it repackaged for CGC,

8) how much it cost me to submit a CGC SS submission with shipping,

9) how much risk I took to spend all that time and money to get that particular book, in high enough grade, signed, graded and posted for sale in an often volatile market that could go down before the book ever gets returned from grading,

10) how much time it cost me to prep the book, post it for sale, then package the book for safe mailing,

11) how much in Ebay and PP fees I have to pay IF I sell the book,

12) how much risk *I* take selling that book and sending it across the country or around the world that could end up damaging/losing the book along with all the research, time, effort and money that *I* put into obtaining and selling the book - AND... 

13) how much profit (if any) I make selling the book. 

 

So if you think the artist shouldn't care for one second about any of the 1-12 steps I listed above... then they shouldn't care for one second about #13 either! 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by jcjames

[Logan510]

2 minutes ago, IntoAnother said:

I didn't assume you didn't feel for the fan, as I'm sure you are one of more than a few creators yourself. I'm also certainly not crying about the bottom line and hope what I said didn't come across as such. 

Many of us fans are just sick and tired of the greed of a select few and I've had enough of it. I'm actually really lucky as the majority of creators who I value the most do not charge. Yet a growing number of creators will no longer be getting my support. Especially when they become part of a price gouging stable.

 

Please, no worries, I was absolutely not talking about you 

Personally, if I want a guys signature and he charges I'll pay it as long as it's within what I consider reasonable for me. I would've loved to have been in on that Frank Miller signing, but the prices were too steep for me, though I know that there were certainly plenty of people who did pay for them.

There are plenty of creators who will sign for nothing though ( or a small donation ), I have stood in line helping people out with their SS stuff to know this much.

[ygogolak]

2 hours ago, Red84 said:

there was something similar going on at Frank Miller's signing.  They were selling COA's with matching holograms to put on your signed piece for $20.  I was a little annoyed because I had already paid for the signature, but i understood why they were doing it.  A person keeping the piece doesn't need a COA.  A person who has the intention to sell it has to pay.  I chose not to buy the COA.

Lee & Liefeld have that option too. It doesn't get more 90's than a hologram on your book.

[Logan510]

6 minutes ago, jcjames said:

Continue that thinking to it's logical conclusion....

The artist shouldn't care for one second about:

1) how much time I spent researching the market and selecting a good, potentially in-demand book that the artist worked on, 

2) how much time I spent looking for and selecting good HG potentially-9.8 candidate of his book,

3) how much money I spent buying the book and the protective storage materials for it,

4) how much effort I spent to prevent it from damage transporting the book from the place-of-purchase to home and then to the con,

5) how much I paid to get to the con and then enter the con,

6) how much time I spent waiting in his line,

7) how much effort I spent AGAIN preventing damage to the book while waiting in line, while getting his signature, and while getting it repackaged for CGC,

8) how much it cost me to submit a CGC SS submission with shipping,

9) how much risk I took to spend all that time and money to get that particular book, in high enough grade, signed, graded and posted for sale in an often volatile market that could go down before the book ever gets returned from grading,

10) how much time it cost me to prep the book, post it for sale, then package the book for safe mailing,

11) how much in Ebay and PP fees I have to pay IF I sell the book,

12) how much risk *I* take selling that book and sending it across the country or around the world that could end up damaging/losing the book along with all the research, time, effort and money that *I* put into obtaining and selling the book - AND... 

13) how much profit (if any) I make selling the book. 

 

So if you think the artist shouldn't care for one second about any of the 1-12 steps I listed above... then they shouldn't care for one second about #13 either! 

 

 

 

You're trying to make money off of their work and their name. They shouldn't care about your bottom line or all the work you're putting in to get this done. If they want to make some extra money from you needing them, I have no issue with it.