POLL: how would BA12 cover do at heritage? 2 2

[Mephisto]

I am not going to read this whole thread but what about Alex Ross' Harley Quinn cover painting vs BA 12. I know BA 12 has over took the Ross book in price. From what I remember for years the Ross book was the bigger of the two due it actually being her first appearance in the true DC universe but the tides have shifted in more recent years.

However, Ross covers already command a premium for modern art and the image of the Harley Cover became a near instant classic image of Joker and Harley.

[buyatari]

3 hours ago, Mephisto said:

I am not going to read this whole thread but what about Alex Ross' Harley Quinn cover painting vs BA 12. I know BA 12 has over took the Ross book in price. From what I remember for years the Ross book was the bigger of the two due it actually being her first appearance in the true DC universe but the tides have shifted in more recent years.

However, Ross covers already command a premium for modern art and the image of the Harley Cover became a near instant classic image of Joker and Harley.

BA12 would win. No one is buying BA12 at 6 figures for the artwork and the artwork isn't holding it back either. 

[delekkerste]

1 hour ago, buyatari said:

BA12 would win. No one is buying BA12 at 6 figures for the artwork and the artwork isn't holding it back either. 

You're not wrong, but maybe people should actually consider what they're buying. Not the real first appearance of the character. Not by the character's defining artist or her creator.  Not the character's intro to the DC Universe, which explains why the cover is inspired instead by the cartoon and looks like it was created for young children, like those old 70s comics based on Hanna-Barbera cartoons.  I would imagine that the OA to this cover has about as much presence as a wet noodle - nothing really to it, like an animation cel with the color zapped out, just some lines and almost no detail.  Pretty much purely functional with no real artistry at all. 

The artwork may not hold the trophy hunters back from paying up to bag what is perceived to be the cover to a Modern key...but maybe it should? 

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by delekkerste

[Bronty]

Well, I agree with some of that but in fairness its a lovely drawing.    Is it minimalist, sure.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bronty

[Nexus]

My question to those answering this poll: Is your current valuation of BA #12 influenced at all by the NYX #3 sale?

Since NM #98 and WD #1 have been brought up as perhaps more important pieces than BA #12, I'll add that even before this NYX #3 auction, I believe SANDMAN #1 would be a $100K cover.

PREACHER #1 could surprise there, too.

[NinjaSealed]

10 hours ago, delekkerste said:

You're not wrong, but maybe people should actually consider what they're buying. Not the real first appearance of the character. Not by the character's defining artist or her creator.  Not the character's intro to the DC Universe, which explains why the cover is inspired instead by the cartoon and looks like it was created for young children, like those old 70s comics based on Hanna-Barbera cartoons.  I would imagine that the OA to this cover has about as much presence as a wet noodle - nothing really to it, like an animation cel with the color zapped out, just some lines and almost no detail.  Pretty much purely functional with no real artistry at all. 

The artwork may not hold the trophy hunters back from paying up to bag what is perceived to be the cover to a Modern key...but maybe it should? 

 

I think many would agree with this sentiment, me included, but I don't see it happening any time soon!

From a value standpoint it is almost definitely:

#1 BA12

#2 Batman: HQ

#3 Mad Love

However as a collector what I would prefer to own money aside for me it would be:

#1. Batman: HQ

#2 Mad Love

#3 BA12

[buyatari]

11 hours ago, delekkerste said:

You're not wrong, but maybe people should actually consider what they're buying. Not the real first appearance of the character. Not by the character's defining artist or her creator.  Not the character's intro to the DC Universe, which explains why the cover is inspired instead by the cartoon and looks like it was created for young children, like those old 70s comics based on Hanna-Barbera cartoons.  I would imagine that the OA to this cover has about as much presence as a wet noodle - nothing really to it, like an animation cel with the color zapped out, just some lines and almost no detail.  Pretty much purely functional with no real artistry at all. 

The artwork may not hold the trophy hunters back from paying up to bag what is perceived to be the cover to a Modern key...but maybe it should? 

 

Not trying to be sarcastic but why should they?

There are many reasons that people feel the need to collect art. Some may collect art for art's sake.  Others see comic art as memorabilia. A historic home run hit baseball doesn't have to look like anything other than a typically baseball. In truth we are all a bit of both. You might see them as collectors who don't appreciate good art at times. Perhaps you are right but perhaps they have a different reason for wanting this material.

I don't think BA12 being from the Batman Adventures universe hurts it. If anything it adds to the history of the character. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by buyatari

[delekkerste]

6 hours ago, Nexus said:

My question to those answering this poll: Is your current valuation of BA #12 influenced at all by the NYX #3 sale?

Since NM #98 and WD #1 have been brought up as perhaps more important pieces than BA #12, I'll add that even before this NYX #3 auction, I believe SANDMAN #1 would be a $100K cover.

PREACHER #1 could surprise there, too.

The combination of the NYX #3 sale and Fish alluding to having interest at $100K three years ago (but not saying anything beyond that) has definitely amped up expectations here.  No way would anyone be talking about $150K, let alone $250K or more, a week or two ago.  Remember, at the time, the Vacuum was on the record as being interested at it in $50K.  Who on earth would think to triple or quintuple that price 2 weeks ago?   

If we're using NYX #3 and the new BA 12 expectations as the new benchmarks, than $100K for Sandman #1 is way too low, and the only surprise regarding Preacher #1 is if it hits multiple 6-figures, not just $100K.  

[delekkerste]

57 minutes ago, buyatari said:

Not trying to be sarcastic but why should they?

There are many reasons that people feel the need to collect art. Some may collect art for art's sake.  Others see comic art as memorabilia. A historic home run hit baseball doesn't have to look like anything other than a typically baseball. In truth we are all a bit of both. You might see them as collectors who don't appreciate good art at times. Perhaps you are right but perhaps they have a different reason for wanting this material.

I don't think BA12 being from the Batman Adventures universe hurts it. If anything it adds to the history of the character. 

People can collect art for whatever motivation they like.  I collect primarily, but certainly not exclusively, out of nostalgia.  And, some people who are more focused on the technical quality of the art look down upon that.  Others collect with more of a basis in the comic book hobby - what is important to the comics is important to them, regardless of the quality of the art (e.g., 1st appearance OA collectors, key issue OA collectors, etc.), which some also look down upon as not being really anything to do with art for art's sake.  But, whatever.  People can collect for whatever reason makes them happy.  No one is saying otherwise.

However, when it comes to the NYX #3 sale and these stratospheric predictions for BA #12 - are they really rooted in love of the art?  Or is this is just a d***-measuring exercise slash trophy grab slash pushing an agenda to put more recent art on a par with vintage slash financial speculation?  Because I can see how/why people might wrinkle their noses at these motivations.  It's why so many of us (I met with probably 15 other collectors in person this weekend in NYC and have had numerous online/e-mail exchanges with many more) were embarrassed by the NYX #3 cover sale last week (much as many expressed embarrassment after the ASM #328 cover took the top spot for most expensive piece of American comic art sold at auction back in 2012).  It's not that us old hands hate all '90s and '00s art and don't want to see it put up on a similar financial pedestal as vintage.  We'd be happy to see Preacher #1 or Sandman #1 break records.  Thrilled to see TWD #1 crack 6-figures.  But $71.7K for a generic pencil-drawing that could be a random street walker but is meant to be X-23 (no costume, no claws out)?  It just doesn't seem worthy of the price, and it feels like a bit of a shameless trophy grab at an F-you price (or, worse, potential speculation on a future X-23 movie), more than it speaks to some deep, undying love for the art/character.      

Edited May 22, 2017 by delekkerste

[Bronty]

Deleted 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bronty

[Claudio]

43 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

The combination of the NYX #3 sale and Fish alluding to having interest at $100K three years ago (but not saying anything beyond that) has definitely amped up expectations here.  No way would anyone be talking about $150K, let alone $250K or more, a week or two ago.  Remember, at the time, the Vacuum was on the record as being interested at it in $50K.  Who on earth would think to triple or quintuple that price 2 weeks ago?   

If we're using NYX #3 and the new BA 12 expectations as the new benchmarks, than $100K for Sandman #1 is way too low, and the only surprise regarding Preacher #1 is if it hits multiple 6-figures, not just $100K.  

Didn't he just say he was interested in it "BIGLY"?  I doubt "BIGLY" means "Less than I was prepared to offer 3 years ago"

[delekkerste]

3 minutes ago, Claudio said:

Didn't he just say he was interested in it "BIGLY"?  I doubt "BIGLY" means "Less than I was prepared to offer 3 years ago"

I also doubt it means "I'll pay more than I have to." 

[Bronty]

Gene - why is the price of BA 12 such a different case to you than the price of say NM98?   

Both popular character first appearances where the art isn't what you're paying for, but you seem more offended by the one than the other.

as for the motivations, of course they aren't totally (even partly?) pure, but so what, there is no end of transactions that happen for similar reasons

[delekkerste]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Gene - why is the price of BA 12 such a different case to you than the price of say NM98?   

Both popular character first appearances where the art isn't what you're paying for, but you seem more offended by the one than the other.

as for the motivations, of course they aren't totally (even partly?) pure, but so what, there is no end of transactions that happen for similar reasons

Glad you asked:

1.  Not even Fish thinks NM #98 is a $250K cover.  Or, at least he didn't the last time I spoke with him.  NOW I'm sure he does after the NYX #3 sale, though!!  

2.  People are delusional if they think Harley Quinn has anywhere near the popularity and name recognition outside of our little sub-culture as Deadpool.  Harley Quinn was a supporting character in a movie which few seemed to think was any good.  Deadpool starred in a movie called Deadpool that grossed huge box office and everyone enjoyed it.  He was even a recent Jeopardy! question!  I really don't think people realize that even many people who watched Suicide Squad or Logan don't remember the supporting cast's names - trust me, I've asked people!!  Does anybody remember the supporting characters from the first two Wolvie films either?  Yeah, didn't think so.  X-23 now is still basically nobody to the general public.  

3.  Rob Liefeld actually CREATED Deadpool.  NM #98 is actually his REAL first appearance.  BA 12 is a later adaption to comics of a character created by someone else for a kiddie cartoon.  A good kiddie cartoon, yes, but a kiddie cartoon nonetheless.  No real depth of artistry, just conforming to the animated series style prescribed by the editor.  It's not intentionally minimalist in an artistic sense; it's minimal in an editorial decision/work-for-hire sense.  

4.  Love him or hate him, Rob Liefeld is actually a name artist who drew some of the best-selling comics of the past 50 years and influenced a generation of comic artists (for better or worse).  Mike Parobeck had a tragically short career drawing mostly in a prescribed style conforming to a look consistent with the animated series.  No contest there.  

BA 12 is a quirky comic that has become valuable, and I'm not saying that's nothing.  But, when we're talking about multiples of Miller DD covers, multiples of BWS Conan covers, 50%+ more than a twice-up Kirby cover, etc. you'd have to say that people are extrapolating based on the NYX #3 and Fish's comment.  Two weeks ago, no one would be arguing $150K or $250K with a straight face.  Many wouldn't have even put TWD #1 or NM #98 (which are far more important books as well as being better covers by more notable artists; I can't believe this even needs to be said - and please note that I have zero love for either Deadpool or NM #98) in those price brackets before the NYX #3 sale.  

Edited May 22, 2017 by delekkerste

[eewwnuk]

ok...referring to BTAS as a kiddie cartoon is going too far now

Edited May 22, 2017 by eewwnuk

[Claudio]

35 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I also doubt it means "I'll pay more than I have to." 

But it probably means that 100k is the floor...  assuming the owner has seen the post. 

[buyatari]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Glad you asked:

1.  Not even Fish thinks NM #98 is a $250K cover.  Or, at least he didn't the last time I spoke with him.  NOW I'm sure he does after the NYX #3 sale, though!!  

2.  People are delusional if they think Harley Quinn has anywhere near the popularity and name recognition outside of our little sub-culture as Deadpool.  Harley Quinn was a supporting character in a movie which few seemed to think was any good.  Deadpool starred in a movie called Deadpool that grossed huge box office and everyone enjoyed it.  He was even a recent Jeopardy! question!  I really don't think people realize that even many people who watched Suicide Squad or Logan don't remember the supporting cast's names - trust me, I've asked people!!  Does anybody remember the supporting characters from the first two Wolvie films either?  Yeah, didn't think so.  X-23 now is still basically nobody to the general public.  

3.  Rob Liefeld actually CREATED Deadpool.  NM #98 is actually his REAL first appearance.  BA 12 is a later adaption to comics of a character created by someone else for a kiddie cartoon.  A good kiddie cartoon, yes, but a kiddie cartoon nonetheless.  No real depth of artistry, just conforming to the animated series style prescribed by the editor.  It's not intentionally minimalist in an artistic sense; it's minimal in an editorial decision/work-for-hire sense.  

4.  Love him or hate him, Rob Liefeld is actually a name artist who drew some of the best-selling comics of the past 50 years and influenced a generation of comic artists (for better or worse).  Mike Parobeck had a tragically short career drawing mostly in a prescribed style conforming to a look consistent with the animated series.  No contest there.  

BA 12 is a quirky comic that has become valuable, and I'm not saying that's nothing.  But, when we're talking about multiples of Miller DD covers, multiples of BWS Conan covers, 50%+ more than a twice-up Kirby cover, etc. you'd have to say that people are extrapolating based on the NYX #3 and Fish's comment.  Two weeks ago, no one would be arguing $150K or $250K with a straight face.  Many wouldn't have even put TWD #1 or NM #98 (which are far more important books as well as being better covers by more notable artists; I can't believe this even needs to be said - and please note that I have zero love for either Deadpool or NM #98) in those price brackets before the NYX #3 sale.  

 

I can't speak for others but my feelings aren't based on the NYX 3 or what Fish has said.

Personally I just think as a license that Harley Quinn has far more potential than Deadpool. As for current mainstream popularity I think you might be wrong about that. Perhaps that is because I have a ten year daughter who along with all her friends have Harley Quinn fever. It would be interesting to see Marvel's and DC's merchandising sales for these two characters.

Time will tell. There was a point in time in the 90s when Punisher and Wolverine were neck and neck in terms of popularity.  This was around the time when Lobo (with some of the same traits as Deadpool) was a top license as well.

As for comparison with Kirby covers etc. Sure it sounds nuts in that context but you are talking about 1 specific page vs multiples. You can miss out on a nice Kirby twice up cover and still pick one up next time around.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by buyatari

[delekkerste]

10 minutes ago, buyatari said:

Personally I just think as a license that Harley Quinn has far more potential than Deadpool. As for current mainstream popularity I think you might be wrong about that. Perhaps that is because I have a ten year daughter who along with all her friends have Harley Quinn fever. It would be interesting to see Marvel's and DC's merchandising sales for these two characters.

Harley may be more popular with 10-year old girls, and she may rival Deadpool for popularity within our little sub-culture, but among the general population?  I don't think it's even close between them, and if you throw in overseas as well, it's going to be a devastating landslide in favor of Deadpool.  The latter headlined a global blockbuster movie and will have far, far greater name recognition on that basis alone than someone who's only major exposure to the non-cartoon/comics crowd will have been a supporting role in an utterly forgettable Suicide Squad film (do you think that most non-comic fans who saw the film can even recall that Will Smith's character's name was Deadshot?  I don't).  

And let me reiterate that I am not a Deadpool fan at all (though I did like the film), don't own any Deadpool comics or art and have no interest in ever acquiring any.  I just think it's that obvious if you look at the situation outside of a comic person's perspective. 

[buyatari]

10 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Harley may be more popular with 10-year old girls, and she may rival Deadpool for popularity within our little sub-culture, but among the general population?  I don't think it's even close between them, and if you throw in overseas as well, it's going to be a devastating landslide in favor of Deadpool.  The latter headlined a global blockbuster movie and will have far, far greater name recognition on that basis alone than someone who's only major exposure to the non-cartoon/comics crowd will have been a supporting role in an utterly forgettable Suicide Squad film (do you think that most non-comic fans who saw the film can even recall that Will Smith's character's name was Deadshot?  I don't).  

And let me reiterate that I am not a Deadpool fan at all (though I did like the film), don't own any Deadpool comics or art and have no interest in ever acquiring any.  I just think it's that obvious if you look at the situation outside of a comic person's perspective. 

The Deadpool movie was a surprise hit but I don't see the general public love that you refer to. Overseas I have no idea. You could very well be right.

Here in the US, I own a music, movie and video game store.  The public that I see talks sometimes about comics but more so about the movies etc. Yes there was a Deadpool game but it wasn't very good and interest died pretty quickly. With the 8-45 year old crowd that I see there is more awareness and love of Harley than Deadpool. It is not just the 10 year girls. The older perverts like Harley as well.

As for the role in current comics I can not comment as I haven't read current comics in many years.   

Edited May 22, 2017 by buyatari

[delekkerste]

Just now, buyatari said:

The Deadpool movie was a surprise hit but I don't see the general public love that you refer to. Overseas I have no idea. You could very well be right.

Here in the US, I own a music, movie and video game store.  The public that I see talks sometimes about comics sometimes but more so about the movies etc. Yes there was a Deadpool game but it wasn't very good and interest died pretty quickly. With the 8-45 year old crowd that I see there is more awareness and love of Harley than Deadpool. It is not just the 10 year girls. The older perverts like Harley as well.

As for the role in current comics I can not comment as I haven't read current comics in many years.   

I don't know if the Deadpool film has the general public love or not (seems that way from what I've heard from my non-comic friends who saw the film, but that's just anecdotal).  What I mean is that Deadpool has much higher name awareness than Harley Quinn among the general population as a result of the film and all the marketing tied to it.  If you look at it through comic world lenses, you might disagree, since the two characters are arguably of comparable popularity within our sub-culture, but outside of it?  10-year old girls aside, Deadpool is much more of a household name than Harley Quinn in 2017.  Two years ago, that may not have been the case, but now?  No contest!