(attempted) Flip of the Day!
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I think this topic side tracked a bit too much. The focus was lost regarding the ridiculously increased prices compared to someone sell for some profit. I don't care about 400 bucks. If I missed out on an auction and now it comes up, seller gives it to me for more, that is ok.

I would not buy it if the price is now 4 times as much and this is what the original post was about.

My 2 cents. 

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58 minutes ago, wurstisart said:

I think this topic side tracked a bit too much. The focus was lost regarding the ridiculously increased prices compared to someone sell for some profit. I don't care about 400 bucks. If I missed out on an auction and now it comes up, seller gives it to me for more, that is ok.

I would not buy it if the price is now 4 times as much and this is what the original post was about.

My 2 cents. 

Just don't try to make it 8 cents!!!!!!  :nyah:

Note- I edited my earlier comment on the Subby page, I forgot to factor the Clink Commission, so the profit on the flip was less than $200.

but seriously, you are right-  and some flips will be a judgment call (duration of time between purchase and sale) and % of mark up) What I find as interesting as the flip, is the immediacy- there are many instances where I question if the the art is even in hand and it's posted for sale again.  I start to wonder if it's a bit of a Pyramid Scheme- style scam, using one purchase to fund another purchase, to fund another purchase, and so on.  Meanwhile, the price of art gets a 10-20% inflation bump at a minimum, all on account of the auction house fees. Nobody wins there except the house.

Edited by MYNAMEISLEGION

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3 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

Nobody wins there except the house.

In a "hot" market the real winners are always the middlers and service providers: like selling pans to gold rush panners ;)

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On 7/3/2017 at 4:59 PM, Twanj said:

 

Ugh.  The crazy, unpredictable prices in the OA world are bad enough, but when I see late Byrne production art going for over 4k now, I just wonder how I can even continue to maintain an interest in the hobby with the intent to buy anything..!

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21 hours ago, Flambit said:

 

Ugh.  The crazy, unpredictable prices in the OA world are bad enough, but when I see late Byrne production art going for over 4k now, I just wonder how I can even continue to maintain an interest in the hobby with the intent to buy anything..!

If your hope was to collect John Byrne production art, I can see why this would discourage you. Otherwise, just consider this craziness and go on. A lot of people will agree with you.

It all depends on how you want to approach the hobby. If you're willing to chase other, non-Namor John Byrne original art work, it's out there for relative peanuts. Anthony Snyder alone has more than a dozen published Byrne pages for less than $200. Most are DC, none are FF, but it's Byrne, baby, Byrne.

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44 minutes ago, Hal Turner said:

...but it's Byrne, baby, Byrne.

disco-dancing-animated-gif-5.gif

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I guess what I meant was I thought it is crazy that a Byrne production piece, from a period arguably past his prime, with essentially no original art, would sell for over 4k.  How does that bode for, say, Alpha Flight covers?  I had always considered Alpha Flight as affordable prime-era Byrne.  Now I'm starting to realize they are all going for about 18-20k on average - when did that happen??  I remember when the Alpha Flight 27 cover was on Heritage - it didn't SEEM like it was that long ago, and I had been one of the bidders on that piece - and it only sold for something like 2.5k.  I think Coollines got that one; I've always wanted to inquire at the price they marked it up to, but haven't have the stomach for it.  

Anyway, I guess my dreams of paying 6k for the Alpha Flight 12 cover are long gone :insane:

BUT - it's nice to see that Namor 13 cover going for 3.8k, which includes both pieces of art, one of which, I believe, is actual original art of Namor and the whale creature; the other piece is the wash piece, and the wash is all you were getting when you got the 7 cover, as I understand it.  And the 13 was from a recent Sunday auction, wasn't it?  I mean, I'd rather have the 13 over the 7 cover (even though the 7 cover is the better image).  At least you're getting original art, right?

Okay, sorry for the thread drift...  

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2 hours ago, Flambit said:

I had always considered Alpha Flight as affordable prime-era Byrne.  Now I'm starting to realize they are all going for about 18-20k on average - when did that happen??

We all had about twenty years to get early 90s art (Namor) on the cheap. It's just the last couple of years that things got interesting for the period. Early 90s was so cheap it was hard to find. And most of us didn't want it anyway. (Chicken and egg applies here.) Just like fifteen and twenty years ago 80s art was cheap. But everyone, and I well remember this, was chasing large SA and (generally only 'key') Bronze then. Etc etc etc. Alpha Flight? Didn't even particularly care for the book (it was 'ok') and still I couldn't pass up the 5 and 27 splashes for $125 and $108 respectively. Including shipping (ha ha ha). This at a time when (then) new Byrne Wonder Woman covers were $300 from Jim Warden. If you had a decent income several pieces a month like that wasn't even painful. Those were the days...

And just cuz I was there doesn't mean I didn't leave a lot more good deals on the table than I took down. In hindsight I was (and still am) a phenomenal hobby insufficiently_thoughtful_person: being that I tended to buy what I love not what everybody else would love twenty years later! And that's what I didn't buy, there's also the stuff I did buy, that was a big off-target, and sold too early. Heh. Who thought Byrne WW covers would ever be 'worth' more than $300? Right....

I hear Felix sells new art in that same several hunny range today. But you'd still have to buy before the crowd, while he's still got some and before everybody else has got one, before the creators and books achieve iconic (or near) status, before the only examples available are weaker pieces at auctions other than eBay...

Even if you are late to the game, or lacked focus early on, the idea is to buy ahead of the crowd. It's definitely not to chase lesser fill examples after the herd has completely destroyed any bargain-hunting for what you really want. Not writing anything new here, I know, but it's instructive (imo) to repeat it from time to time. Who knows maybe it's news to somebody somewhere. And perhaps there is an angle too? Should one so desire...leverage into late 90s to mid oughts (NOW!!) to buy what you really like later? We all know in a hot market small and micro caps move faster than blue chips. But I mean...that's advocating speculation...and we don't do that here (right?!) lol;)

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3 hours ago, vodou said:

We all had about twenty years to get early 90s art (Namor) on the cheap. It's just the last couple of years that things got interesting for the period. Early 90s was so cheap it was hard to find. And most of us didn't want it anyway. (Chicken and egg applies here.) Just like fifteen and twenty years ago 80s art was cheap. But everyone, and I well remember this, was chasing large SA and (generally only 'key') Bronze then. Etc etc etc. Alpha Flight? Didn't even particularly care for the book (it was 'ok') and still I couldn't pass up the 5 and 27 splashes for $125 and $108 respectively. Including shipping (ha ha ha). This at a time when (then) new Byrne Wonder Woman covers were $300 from Jim Warden. If you had a decent income several pieces a month like that wasn't even painful. Those were the days...

And just cuz I was there doesn't mean I didn't leave a lot more good deals on the table than I took down. In hindsight I was (and still am) a phenomenal hobby insufficiently_thoughtful_person: being that I tended to buy what I love not what everybody else would love twenty years later! And that's what I didn't buy, there's also the stuff I did buy, that was a big off-target, and sold too early. Heh. Who thought Byrne WW covers would ever be 'worth' more than $300? Right....

I hear Felix sells new art in that same several hunny range today. But you'd still have to buy before the crowd, while he's still got some and before everybody else has got one, before the creators and books achieve iconic (or near) status, before the only examples available are weaker pieces at auctions other than eBay...

Even if you are late to the game, or lacked focus early on, the idea is to buy ahead of the crowd. It's definitely not to chase lesser fill examples after the herd has completely destroyed any bargain-hunting for what you really want. Not writing anything new here, I know, but it's instructive (imo) to repeat it from time to time. Who knows maybe it's news to somebody somewhere. And perhaps there is an angle too? Should one so desire...leverage into late 90s to mid oughts (NOW!!) to buy what you really like later? We all know in a hot market small and micro caps move faster than blue chips. But I mean...that's advocating speculation...and we don't do that here (right?!) lol;)

I've bought a few pieces from Felix, and he does sell in that range... well, normally. As an outlier, Tradd Moore recently did some work on Venom #150 and those pages went for up to $3000. He has a few other artists that get priced outside of that normal $150 - $500 range as well, but for the most part, the range is reasonable and can be affordable.

In general, I agree with your advice about getting there first, though from personal experience it does seem to me that the brand new modern art scene, like the brand new modern comic collecting scene, can explode very quickly and then go splat with next to no warning... books will blow up, and then fall away to a point where the masses just don't seem to care anymore. So if you have patience, if you don't feel comfortable rushing in to beat the crowd, you can often get a second chance relatively soon. Note that your second chance probably won't occur for the very best, top tier pieces, but you will still see very strong modern pieces suddenly show up at auction when the people who did rush in to beat the crowd at all costs need to drop some of their pages in order to finance that next chase. 

As an example, I recently bought a half splash at auction for around $400. Not quite a year prior, that same page was offered to me in a private deal at $1500, however, that price is outside of my comfort zone on a page that still has wet ink.... even if I do love it lol That was a pretty quick turn around, I'm thrilled to own it, and I don't care that it "lost value" since I have no intentions of ever getting rid of it. With a volatile market, sometimes patience pays off, but really every strategy has some element of a gamble to it.

 

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3 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

I've bought a few pieces from Felix, and he does sell in that range... well, normally. As an outlier, Tradd Moore recently did some work on Venom #150 and those pages went for up to $3000. He has a few other artists that get priced outside of that normal $150 - $500 range as well, but for the most part, the range is reasonable and can be affordable.

In general, I agree with your advice about getting there first, though from personal experience it does seem to me that the brand new modern art scene, like the brand new modern comic collecting scene, can explode very quickly and then go splat with next to no warning... books will blow up, and then fall away to a point where the masses just don't seem to care anymore. So if you have patience, if you don't feel comfortable rushing in to beat the crowd, you can often get a second chance relatively soon. Note that your second chance probably won't occur for the very best, top tier pieces, but you will still see very strong modern pieces suddenly show up at auction when the people who did rush in to beat the crowd at all costs need to drop some of their pages in order to finance that next chase. 

As an example, I recently bought a half splash at auction for around $400. Not quite a year prior, that same page was offered to me in a private deal at $1500, however, that price is outside of my comfort zone on a page that still has wet ink.... even if I do love it lol That was a pretty quick turn around, I'm thrilled to own it, and I don't care that it "lost value" since I have no intentions of ever getting rid of it. With a volatile market, sometimes patience pays off, but really every strategy has some element of a gamble to it.

 

I so agree with you with what you wrote in the second paragraph. A lot of indie titles seem to go through this; one month they're hot, the next they're cold. This is pretty risky when speculating and flipping. It's probably "safer" to buy because of the artist and the quality of the page than the title. Kind of like get that artist while he's cheap.

I didn't read Byrne Wonder Woman--was that volume 1? If so, not sure why anyone would pass on volume 1 legacy. But then again, if you were chasing large art SA and actually got something good, then it was worth the sacrifice. I'd rather have that than Byrne. You can't buy it all anyway. But like Voudou says, you had 10+ years to buy cheap Bryne Namor, so no complaining'! 

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I'm not complaining at all, I'm just shocked.  I picked up a decent Byrne Alpha Flight cover I'd always loved about 8 years ago for about 6k.  Last year I had a really nice conversation with a very cool collector who offered me what I thought was an astonishing amount of money in trade for it.  I had no idea it was worth what it was because they generally sat between 5-10k for years.  And my point about the Namor piece isn't that I thought it they were particularly expensive in general, it's that I thought 4k was outrageous for what essentially is no original line art, only washes over a copy.  I actually think 3.8k is completely fair for that other Namor cover, given the buyer got all the OA included; in fact, I would say that OA Namor cover at under 4k is the upper end of reasonable.  

But, I also agree with chasing stuff that doesn't pan out: in the late 80's I thought for sure Kevin Maguire could be the next John Byrne based on how hot his JL series was.  Nope.  I turned down a Kirby Eternals cover for a lesser JL cover (both were $250 - whoops!).  I wasn't speculating, because I LOVED that JL run, and I still do, but in terms of value, I definitely made a poor choice.  I also would have thought Rich Buckler would have taken off given how prolific and hot he was in the 70's/80's.  Nope, even with Nostalgia as a driving factor, you can still find affordable Buckler pieces all over the place.   At the same time, I turned down I don't know how many great Preacher pages, and even, on two occasions, two complete (admittedly lesser) issues (one was the one with Jesse's dad in Nam where the main cast is barely featured, one was Jessie driving on the road listening to the radio the entire issue).  I guess it comes down to correctly speculating, but we all tend to buy what we love, don't we?  

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23 minutes ago, Flambit said:

  At the same time, I turned down I don't know how many great Preacher pages, and even, on two occasions, two complete (admittedly lesser) issues (one was the one with Jesse's dad in Nam where the main cast is barely featured, one was Jessie driving on the road listening to the radio the entire issue).  I guess it comes down to correctly speculating, but we all tend to buy what we love, don't we?  

Thanks for passing on that issue (worship)    I was able to get it. 

 

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2 minutes ago, mister_not_so_nice said:

Thanks for passing on that issue (worship)    I was able to get it. 

 

You're welcome haha.  Those were some beautiful pages, just some wonderful art in there.  At the time I just couldn't justify spending the money for an issue that specifically didn't feature Cassidy, who was my favorite character at the time.  Obviously a huge mistake, since I believe the entire issue was only 2k.  I definitely debated it but I opted for a Cassidy "How're Yez" half splash instead.  That would have been from Albert's site around 2000 or so, I think.  God, Albert had SO much Preacher art back then.  I just thought, "Oh, well, it will ALWAYS be available." haha

The interesting thing that underlines what SquareChaos said, is that, essentially, it was the "second" pass at Preacher art: by 2000/2001, the really choice pages were gone: no more Saint of Killers at all, no more really key story pages.  But there were a TON of B+ pages for sale.  That was the only complete issue available.  I was offered the other complete issue in 2007, but I think it was somewhere between 6-9k...  I can't remember how much exactly now.    

In the interest of staying vaguely on topic: think of what you could get if you flipped it today haha!

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49 minutes ago, Flambit said:

I'm not complaining at all, I'm just shocked.  I picked up a decent Byrne Alpha Flight cover I'd always loved about 8 years ago for about 6k.  Last year I had a really nice conversation with a very cool collector who offered me what I thought was an astonishing amount of money in trade for it.  I had no idea it was worth what it was because they generally sat between 5-10k for years.  And my point about the Namor piece isn't that I thought it they were particularly expensive in general, it's that I thought 4k was outrageous for what essentially is no original line art, only washes over a copy.  I actually think 3.8k is completely fair for that other Namor cover, given the buyer got all the OA included; in fact, I would say that OA Namor cover at under 4k is the upper end of reasonable.  

But, I also agree with chasing stuff that doesn't pan out: in the late 80's I thought for sure Kevin Maguire could be the next John Byrne based on how hot his JL series was.  Nope.  I turned down a Kirby Eternals cover for a lesser JL cover (both were $250 - whoops!).  I wasn't speculating, because I LOVED that JL run, and I still do, but in terms of value, I definitely made a poor choice.  I also would have thought Rich Buckler would have taken off given how prolific and hot he was in the 70's/80's.  Nope, even with Nostalgia as a driving factor, you can still find affordable Buckler pieces all over the place.   At the same time, I turned down I don't know how many great Preacher pages, and even, on two occasions, two complete (admittedly lesser) issues (one was the one with Jesse's dad in Nam where the main cast is barely featured, one was Jessie driving on the road listening to the radio the entire issue).  I guess it comes down to correctly speculating, but we all tend to buy what we love, don't we?  

Sorry--I lose track of who said what in these threads and the "complain'" was me pointing in the general direction and not at you. :foryou: That said I agree with you entirely, in that it's a head scratcher why the production art sold for so much. 

Thanks for sharing that JL/Eternals story. Sometimes it seems like everyone bats .1000 and anecdotes like that keep it grounded.  It's just too hard (impossible) to predict which artists have staying power 20-30 years from now. And let's not even bring up those artists that never got their due. 

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52 minutes ago, Jay Olie Espy said:

Sorry--I lose track of who said what in these threads and the "complain'" was me pointing in the general direction and not at you. :foryou: That said I agree with you entirely, in that it's a head scratcher why the production art sold for so much. 

Thanks for sharing that JL/Eternals story. Sometimes it seems like everyone bats .1000 and anecdotes like that keep it grounded.  It's just too hard (impossible) to predict which artists have staying power 20-30 years from now. And let's not even bring up those artists that never got their due. 

No worries!  I understood what you meant - I can totally dig it!  

In fact, I probably have some of the very worst instincts of anyone on this board.  I’ve been a fanatic comic person since I was 6 or 7, and involved in the convention life since I was 12 or 13 - and I’m old now.  I know we all have our regrets, but here’s a short list of my colossal mistakes I recall actually passing on (not stuff I saw, mind you, but stuff I was going to actually pull the trigger on but couldn’t because I couldn’t raise the money):

1987 - I don’t ever recall seeing those Dark Knight pages at Scott’s table, but I do recall seeing the table - so I won’t beat myself up about that one…. the only thing I DO recall is the Welcome to Smallville Superboy Miller cover, but I thought it was really expensive.  I did debate it, but don’t recall at all now what it went for…

1999-2000 - I swear I saw the Thor #126 cover (Thor/Herc grappling) for 10k online somewhere and passed on it, knowing it was just an insane cover image.  That one is almost like a fever dream - did I actually see it?  Just couldn’t raise the money.  Also, 2 different Frazetta Ghost Rider covers for 10k each.  A handful of Byrne WCA covers, but I recall they were pretty aggressively priced.

2003 or so - Captain America covers 197 and 199: eBay, both sold for 5k (really sting to this day because that’s a particular nostalgic favorite of mine; probably if I could go back in time for just one thing on this list, just out of my love for that run, I’d take those!).  An incredible Kirby Sandman cover sold for 5k as well around the same time - failed to raise money for all. 

2003 at SDCC: Black Panther 7 cover (3k) and Watchmen Ozy “I did it” page (I want to say it was $1800, but could have been as much as 3k).  Was out of work, couldn’t come up with the $

2003 - Jaime Hernandez gave me his for sale art list.  He must have had 10 different covers on there.  With the exception of one of the Death of Speedy covers, I don’t think one was over $600-700.  I did the math once and realized I could have had 8 or 9 covers for under 5k.  Not to mention the dozens upon dozens of panel pages and splashes. 

2007 - on caf, I saw a couple of great Bolland/Morrison Animal Man covers for 2500 (I thought, “No, too expensive” haha) and a couple of Byrne WCA covers for 3k that I just couldn’t pull the trigger on.  I loved both runs, so that hurt.  

2008 - FF #100 on Heritage in 2008 for around 50k - I was trying to raise the money but couldn’t.  I’d honestly love to see what that would flip for now because the image is so unbelievable.   

And my future mistake: I’ll put out there that I have been going back and forth, back and forth about buying one of those complete Paper Girls books from Felix.  I honestly think that’s a deal right there, I’m just tapped out.  If only there art from the Saga books available..!!!  That would be a no-brainer for sure!

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2 hours ago, Flambit said:

No worries!  I understood what you meant - I can totally dig it!  

In fact, I probably have some of the very worst instincts of anyone on this board.  I’ve been a fanatic comic person since I was 6 or 7, and involved in the convention life since I was 12 or 13 - and I’m old now.  I know we all have our regrets, but here’s a short list of my colossal mistakes I recall actually passing on (not stuff I saw, mind you, but stuff I was going to actually pull the trigger on but couldn’t because I couldn’t raise the money):

1987 - I don’t ever recall seeing those Dark Knight pages at Scott’s table, but I do recall seeing the table - so I won’t beat myself up about that one…. the only thing I DO recall is the Welcome to Smallville Superboy Miller cover, but I thought it was really expensive.  I did debate it, but don’t recall at all now what it went for…

1999-2000 - I swear I saw the Thor #126 cover (Thor/Herc grappling) for 10k online somewhere and passed on it, knowing it was just an insane cover image.  That one is almost like a fever dream - did I actually see it?  Just couldn’t raise the money.  Also, 2 different Frazetta Ghost Rider covers for 10k each.  A handful of Byrne WCA covers, but I recall they were pretty aggressively priced.

2003 or so - Captain America covers 197 and 199: eBay, both sold for 5k (really sting to this day because that’s a particular nostalgic favorite of mine; probably if I could go back in time for just one thing on this list, just out of my love for that run, I’d take those!).  An incredible Kirby Sandman cover sold for 5k as well around the same time - failed to raise money for all. 

2003 at SDCC: Black Panther 7 cover (3k) and Watchmen Ozy “I did it” page (I want to say it was $1800, but could have been as much as 3k).  Was out of work, couldn’t come up with the $

2003 - Jaime Hernandez gave me his for sale art list.  He must have had 10 different covers on there.  With the exception of one of the Death of Speedy covers, I don’t think one was over $600-700.  I did the math once and realized I could have had 8 or 9 covers for under 5k.  Not to mention the dozens upon dozens of panel pages and splashes. 

2007 - on caf, I saw a couple of great Bolland/Morrison Animal Man covers for 2500 (I thought, “No, too expensive” haha) and a couple of Byrne WCA covers for 3k that I just couldn’t pull the trigger on.  I loved both runs, so that hurt.  

2008 - FF #100 on Heritage in 2008 for around 50k - I was trying to raise the money but couldn’t.  I’d honestly love to see what that would flip for now because the image is so unbelievable.   

And my future mistake: I’ll put out there that I have been going back and forth, back and forth about buying one of those complete Paper Girls books from Felix.  I honestly think that’s a deal right there, I’m just tapped out.  If only there art from the Saga books available..!!!  That would be a no-brainer for sure!

Thanks for sharing again. It sounds like you tried to raise money for these opportunities and just couldn't. You can't be blamed for that. I'm a budget collector, so when I see something for $2500, I think, "That's do-able." but the reality is, that it isn't for me. I wish I could've purchased that G.I. Joe variant cover by Paul Pope recently offered by Felix for $2500, but couldn't. Or the Knightfall cover that Sam Kieth did that Albert Moy had sitting on his site for $2750 for the longest time. When you can't, you can't. You can't buy everything. Besides, even if you raised $50K+ to buy that FF 100 cover, can you imagine all the bargain comic art you'd have to give up after your purchase for years to come? That anecdote reminds me of the Will Gabri-El's story of having the $50K to buy the Avengers 50 cover, but just couldn't justify it with a new family. Or if you missed Felix's special edition Albert Moy podcast, you would've heard Albert lament that a Wrightson Swamp Thing cover sold for "only" $50K. It was one of his favorites but he didn't bother to bid because of debt. Albert's story really put things into perspective for me.

I have other regrets, but those are small potatoes. I find, though, that we talk about regrets, but we never talk about the bullets we've dodged--those impulse buys we resisted that turned out to be good decisions. And hey, we have to give ourselves credit for opportunities we didn't squander!

Just to keep it vaguely on topic, I've recently been losing money left and right on my sketch cover collection. But what little money I've been able to keep is going to bigger and better things. :headbang:

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I think the thing was if I'd begged and borrowed, I could have come up with 5k for a couple of those things post 2003 - ugh.  But back then, 3-5k for art seemed so excessive, and you know the mindset, "how could this art possibly become MORE valuable when the asking price is 5-6k which is obviously TOTALLY INSANE :insane:?"

I WISH I'd heard that Moy podcast!  I heard it got pulled because someone complained :(

But (sort of) back on topic: it's funny how it seems like everyone with a Crumb piece is slamming Heritage for a little of that Fritz money.  Granted, I don't know if that qualifies as "flipping," strictly, since many of those I've not seen before.  But I think the problem is there is now SO much Crumb on Heritage that people are really going to take loses, especially on the lessor pieces.  If I wasn't so tapped right now, I'd go for a lessor Crumb piece or something; might be one of the last times you could get a Crumb before a huge jump in prices.  Will be interesting to see how this auction unfolds.  

And BWS pieces - there's a ton of them up there this time!  

 

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