Hierarchy of Golden Age Comics (2017 Edition) 1 1

[sfcityduck]

15 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

It's a good argument. I'd say Superman #1 floats between the books I listed in Tier-1 and Tier-2, but is still closer to Tier-2. FMV might put it closer to Tier-1, but the historical significance of Marvel #1, Batman #1 and Cap #1 cannot be denied. Content-wise, Superman #1 would rank towards the bottom of Tier-2, so it's FMV isn't enough for me to put it in Tier-1.

It's all a matter of opinion, but personally I think the very first comic devoted 100% to a superhero is of similar or greater historical import to the first comic published by Goodwin, the first appearance of Joker, and CA 1 (which isn't even the first patriotic hero).  People like to downgrade Superman 1 as a reprint, but it includes some new material and the cover is a classic (and the back cover isn't bad either).  So, for me personally, the gap from Action 1 and D 27 to Superman 1 is far smaller than the gap from Superman 1 to CA 1.

 

[circumstances]

26 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

It's all a matter of opinion, but personally I think the very first comic devoted 100% to a superhero is of similar or greater historical import to the first comic published by Goodwin, the first appearance of Joker, and CA 1 (which isn't even the first patriotic hero).  People like to downgrade Superman 1 as a reprint, but it includes some new material and the cover is a classic (and the back cover isn't bad either).  So, for me personally, the gap from Action 1 and D 27 to Superman 1 is far smaller than the gap from Superman 1 to CA 1.

I love Cap 1, but I absolutely agree with this.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

18 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

Due to scarcity and the popularity of Cap vs. Superman and Batman, it's tough for me to see Cap #1 moving into Tier-1. But as I stated previously, one has to consider the mentality of the "Marvel Zombie" GA collector. Some just don't care for D.C. And vice versa. Cap #1/Marvel #1 then becomes the "Action #1" of the Timely collector. In that respect, there sits massive potential.

Yes agreed massive potential.

At one point I wouldn't be surprised if Captain America overtakes Superman in popularity this next decade with mainstream fans, as after all the last three Captain America movies are considered far superior to the Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman flicks. Also Captain America is considered the leader of the biggest rock star like group in the world the Avengers. This will gain Captain America legion of new fans. 

Captain America is considered cool now,while Supes is headed to that

Flash Gordon/Tarzan/Lone Ranger territory as a yesterday's hero if things don't turn around.

Also there is nothing wrong with being a Marvel Zombie fan. It actually is a positive because Marvel has the more popular universe than DC.

When I think of Marvel and DC I get this thought.

MARVEL = STAR WARS

DC          = STAR TREK

It is always more beneficial to be in the number one fandom camp than be number two.

[sfcityduck]

15 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

MARVEL = STAR WARS

DC          = STAR TREK

 

Frankly, that doesn't seem to be a favorable comparison for Marvel.

Setting aside analogies, there's no way that CA 1 ever overtakes Superman 1, IMHO, because the folks who pay big bucks for GA keys care far more about comic history, relative rareness, and other relevant factors supporting Superman 1 then they do about movies.  If all that mattered to high stakes GA collectors was movies, then Suspense 3 and Fantastic 3 would not be selling for big bucks. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

22 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Frankly, that doesn't seem to be a favorable comparison for Marvel.

Setting aside analogies, there's no way that CA 1 ever overtakes Superman 1, IMHO, because the folks who pay big bucks for GA keys care far more about comic history, relative rareness, and other relevant factors supporting Superman 1 then they do about movies.  If all that mattered to high stakes GA collectors was movies, then Suspense 3 and Fantastic 3 would not be selling for big bucks. 

I have been hearing that for years how Hollywood media doesn't influence the keys.

Use AF #15  vs. FF #1 as an example. People 10 years ago arguing how AF#15 would never overtake FF#1. We find this is not even a debate anymore.

We can even look at 5 years ago when to suggest Captain America #1 would be a better bet than Marvel Comics #1 would be laughed at.

Also,sadly high stakes GA collectors who care about comic history, relative rareness, and other relevant factors are dying out or retiring leaving the new breed of collector who is influenced by hollywood hype.

An example how things change is remember when it was all about the hot artist?

At one time John Byrne's first X-Men was sought after more than Incredible Hulk #181. 

Another one will be Batman #1 over Superman #1, as first Joker and Catwoman trumps a reprint book. I expect eventually there will be a market correction with this.

Reprint books have a bad track record ala Single Series 20 and Feature Book 26. IMHO.

Edited July 6, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[thedude]

21 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I have been hearing that for years how Hollywood media doesn't influence the keys.

Use AF #15  vs. FF #1 as an example. People 10 years ago arguing how AF#15 would never overtake FF#1. We find this is not even a debate anymore.

We can even look at 5 years ago when to suggest Captain America #1 would be a better bet than Marvel Comics #1 would be laughed at.

Also,sadly high stakes GA collectors who care about comic history, relative rareness, and other relevant factors are dying out or retiring leaving the new breed of collector who is influenced by hollywood hype.

An example how things change is remember when it was all about the hot artist?

At one time John Byrne's first X-Men was sought after more than Incredible Hulk #181. 

Another one will be Batman #1 over Superman #1, as first Joker and Catwoman trumps a reprint book. I expect eventually there will be a market correction with this.

Reprint books have a bad track record ala Single Series 20 and Feature Book 26. IMHO.

Well then, great, I can't wait for the day when I can trade my low grade Bat 1 for a low grade Supes 1, lol. I won't hold my breath. 

[sfcityduck]

12 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I have been hearing that for years how Hollywood media doesn't influence the keys.

Use AF #15  vs. FF #1 as an example. People 10 years ago arguing how AF#15 would never overtake FF#1. We find this is not even a debate anymore.

We can even look at 5 years ago when to suggest Captain America #1 would be a better bet than Marvel Comics #1 would be laughed at.

Also,sadly high stakes GA collectors who care about comic history, relative rareness, and other relevant factors are dying out or retiring leaving the new breed of collector who is influenced by hollywood hype.

An example how things change is remember when it was all about the hot artist?

At one time John Byrne's first X-Men was sought after more than Incredible Hulk #181. 

Another one will be Batman #1 over Superman #1, as first Joker and Catwoman trumps a reprint book. I expect eventually there will be a market correction with this.

Reprint books have a bad track record ala Single Series 20 and Feature Book 26. IMHO.

I think movies have some influence, but you are overstating it.  The new GA collectors also seem to care about comic history, that's why they are paying $3M for an Action 1.  The players at the high level include a lot of guys who educate and get educated about the lore of the hobby.  That's why Centaurs are still hot despite having zero pop culture significance.  Under your analysis, the GA market should largely be in decline.  Obviously, it is not.

Comic strip reprint comics are a far different beast than Superman 1.  Comparing the two just makes me think you aren't being serious.  The MC 1 and CA 1 comparison is better, but I'm not convinced the story of that battle is over. 

In addition, the hot artist still matters a lot ... so long as it is a cover artist.  That's why Suspense 3 and Fantastic 3 are zooming upward.  That is why St. John romance comics are smoking hot.  That's why the Gerber Journals changed the hobby. 

As an aside, I'm not sure, though, I ever remember a time since 1980 or so  when X-Men 108 was more important than IH 181.  It was far far easier for me to buy an X-Men 108 than an IH 181 back then.  I'd have to re-check the OPG to see what it said, but my memory is that IH 181 was the hotter book. 

[circumstances]

Let me add, comparing the relative significance of the Fantastic Four (or Fantastic Four #1) in any way, shape or form, to Superman (or Superman #1) is off base.

Spiderman and the X-Men (and probably many others) have been far more popular than the FF for a very, very long time (well prior to the Marvel Cinematic Universe).

[Wayne-Tec]

On July 19th, 2014: I posted this in the Captain America Comics #1 Club thread. It sums up well my feelings pertaining to the historical significance of Cap #1.

 

"IMO, Cap #1 has only begun to scrape the surface of its potential. 

It's long been recognized for its "classic cover", and as a very desirable book, but it's really so much more. Unlike any other GA book that I can think of, Cap #1 has a real word connection that makes it undeniably unique. Not only was it Simon and Kirby's first breakthrough creation (akin to FF #1 being Stan Lee's first breakthrough creation), but it was a real world response to the evils of Nazism. Simon and Kirby were both Jewish and Cap #1 was a political, personal statement to show their desire for the U.S. to enter WWII.

Lex Luthor, the Joker, Two-Face -- they're all great villains of fiction. But the real world of the early 1940's was facing a real life threat, a real life evil unlike anything ever seen in modern history. Captain America's origin was tied in, storyline-wise, as a direct response to that real world threat. He was America's answer -- physically, emotionally and symbolically. That real world relevance puts the character on a different level than his contemporaries of the time. Because of this, Captain America can be appreciated by both comic book fans and students of history alike. The voice and vision of the American man was captured in Cap #1.

Beyond that, Cap #1 has ascended to claim the spot as the hobby's most valuable "Marvel" comic book. And as I've stated before, that's very significant to the many collectors who was "Marvel zombies" and don't really care for DC. To them, Action #1 and Tec #27 don't hold the same appeal -- they want the very best of what their universe has to offer. The fact that Marvel has gone on to become the industry's No. 1 company is highly significant. Because we're not talking about Cap #1 as the top book of a cult company -- we're talking about the top book, born from THE top company.

We've seen the T206 Honus Wagner card (a player with little modern day relevance, comparatively speaking) break the $2,000,000 mark. We've seen stamps sell for millions of dollars. When you consider the very direct, very relevant connections Captain America has to modern day forms of entertainment, and the vast room comic books still have to grow in a world record sense -- I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that a CGC 9.8 Cap #1 could be a $2,000,000 book.

Before the $1,000,000 sale of the CGC 8.0 Action #1, the perception of how valuable a comic book could be was vastly different. In a short period of time, that changed tremendously. Due to factors of both nostalgia and modern-relevance, comic books are very unique. And there's a plethora of reasons to think that there's still a lot of room for significant growth."

[Jaydogrules]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I think movies have some influence, but you are overstating it.  The new GA collectors also seem to care about comic history, that's why they are paying $3M for an Action 1.  The players at the high level include a lot of guys who educate and get educated about the lore of the hobby.  That's why Centaurs are still hot despite having zero pop culture significance.  Under your analysis, the GA market should largely be in decline.  Obviously, it is not.

Comic strip reprint comics are a far different beast than Superman 1.  Comparing the two just makes me think you aren't being serious.  The MC 1 and CA 1 comparison is better, but I'm not convinced the story of that battle is over.

In addition, the hot artist still matters a lot ... so long as it is a cover artist.  That's why Suspense 3 and Fantastic 3 are zooming upward.  That is why St. John romance comics are smoking hot.  That's why the Gerber Journals changed the hobby. 

As an aside, I'm not sure, though, I ever remember a time since 1980 or so  when X-Men 108 was more important than IH 181.  It was far far easier for me to buy an X-Men 108 than an IH 181 back then.  I'd have to re-check the OPG to see what it said, but my memory is that IH 181 was the hotter book. 

It's over.   

-J.

[jabats]

10 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

It's all a matter of opinion, but personally I think the very first comic devoted 100% to a superhero is of similar or greater historical import to the first comic published by Goodwin, the first appearance of Joker, and CA 1 (which isn't even the first patriotic hero).  People like to downgrade Superman 1 as a reprint, but it includes some new material and the cover is a classic (and the back cover isn't bad either).  So, for me personally, the gap from Action 1 and D 27 to Superman 1 is far smaller than the gap from Superman 1 to CA 1.

 

Supes 1, Bats 1, Cap 1.... all are historically significant!

But when you hold a Supes 1 in your hands... it emanates mystic energy. A certain gravitas if you will.

moreover, it has been scientifically proven that Superman can beat any other superhero (marvel or D.C.) in a 1v1 fight. This isn't even debatable 

batman at the end of the day is just a rich dude with a few gadgets. And Cap is nowhere near the top of popularity in the marvel universe. If "Spider-Man Comics 1" was a golden age timely book, its value would rival or beat action 1. But cap is what.... like the 10th most popular marvel character?

I used to think Cap 1 wouldn't catch Bats 1 in price... I think I was wrong about that 

But Supes 1 is in its own league. Almost , but not quite , in a tier w Action 1 and Tec 27.

of course many of the folks in this thread own one or more of these books, so don't take anyone's word as objective! Just assume everyone is "talking their book" ;-)

[Chicago Boy]

When's the new overstreet come out. San Diego weekend ? 

[Wayne-Tec]

3 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

When's the new overstreet come out. San Diego weekend ? 

Should hit local comic shops July 19th.

[circumstances]

Feels like I just got the current one!

[Wayne-Tec]

On 7/6/2017 at 0:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

It's all a matter of opinion, but personally I think the very first comic devoted 100% to a superhero is of similar or greater historical import to the first comic published by Goodwin, the first appearance of Joker, and CA 1 (which isn't even the first patriotic hero).  People like to downgrade Superman 1 as a reprint, but it includes some new material and the cover is a classic (and the back cover isn't bad either).  So, for me personally, the gap from Action 1 and D 27 to Superman 1 is far smaller than the gap from Superman 1 to CA 1.

 

As I've said before, Superman #1 is far more than a collection of reprints. It completes Superman's first adventure from Action #1 with new pages of art/story, it expands Superman's origins, it features the 1st app. of the Kents and it has a page devoted to the scientific explanation of Superman's powers. There's as much new Superman material in Superman #1 as there is new Wonder Woman material in All-Star Comics #8. Being the first comic book devoted to a solo superhero character marked a pivotal point in the evolution of the industry. All of these factor in to making Superman #1 one of the most important comics ever published.

With that said, both Batman #1 and Captain America Comics #1 are packed to the brim with historically significant, interesting, desirable content that trumps the interior of Superman #1 in my opinion. Batman #1 features the 1st app. of both the Joker and Catwoman, the 2nd app. of the Joker, 2nd app. of Hugo Strange in the final "pre-Robin" story in history, the 3rd app. of Robin, a classic cover, reprinted Tec #33 origin story, reprinted Tec #34 Batman splash image and a classic cover (both front and back). The Joker remains, arguably, the most legendary villain in the history of comic books and he's right up there amongst the greatest villains in the history of popular fiction. The inclusion of his 1st app. on Batman #1, to this day, is significantly overlooked. Batman #1 is too often treated, in some respects, like a Green Lantern #1. A book targeted for the "No. 1 factor" without much consideration for what lies beneath the cover. The Joker's first appearance is common knowledge, but the depth of its content is often overlooked. 

Cap #1 is the only GA book to feature all of the following in one issue: 1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series, origin of the superhero, 1st app. of that superhero's arch nemesis, 1st app. of the superhero's sidekick (who would go on to become a major villain, having a feature film named after him), classic cover and real life connection to world history. For as much as I've argued that Superman #1's interior is under-appreciated, because it is, there's just too much within the pages of Cap #1 and Batman #1 to go toe-to-toe with. Due to factors of rarity, it being a 1939 book and the historical significance that it possesses, I've put Superman #1 in the same tier as Batman #1 and Cap #1, that by other measures, warrant their placement amongst Tier-2 books.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Wayne-Tec

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Wayne-Tec said:

Cap #1 is the only GA book to feature all of the following in one issue: 1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series, origin of the superhero, 1st app. of that superhero's arch nemesis, 1st app. of the superhero's sidekick (who would go on to become a major villain, having a feature film named after him), classic cover and real life connection to world history. For as much as I've argued that Superman #1's interior is under-appreciated, because it is, there's just too much within the pages of Cap #1 and Batman #1 to go toe-to-toe with. Due to factors of rarity, it being a 1939 book and the historical significance that it possesses, I've put Superman #1 in the same tier as Batman #1 and Cap #1, that by other measures, warrant their placement amongst Tier-2 books.

CA 1 is a great book.  But, it is not the "1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series."  It is not even the first appearance of a Timely hero debuting in his own self-titled series.  I believe that honor goes to Red Raven (Aug. 1940).  

I also think it is mistake to view CA 1 as containing a "real life connection to world history," but not Superman 1.  Superman started out as a New Deal liberal crusader for social justice.  In Superman 1, he stops a lynching, stops an unjust government death penalty execution, tackles a corrupt Senator, travels to South America to stop a war fomented by munitions manufacturers, and tackles unsafe conditions for mine workers!  That is far far far more "real world" in the context of its times, and much more adult, than Captain America engaging in the  fantasy of punching Hitler or battling the Red Skull.

Finally, I also think it is a mistake to equate significant "comic history" with the "first appearance" of a popular character.  Many many comics feature character first appearances.  And, the most popular characters debuted after the GA.  I believe that not all character first appearances are equal from a "comic history" perspective, which I think should be different than mere popularity.  Action 1 trumps all because it debuts the first superhero, even though Superman is not the most popular superhero.  CA 1 contains no "historical significance" other than introducing characters.  It did not create a new character archetype (CA was a ripoff in concept, design and origin of the first patriotic superhero The Shield, making Pep 1 arguably the more historically significant book if you ignore character popularity).  It IS a very cool book because it introduced the enduring characters of CA, Bucky and the Red Skull.  But, that's it.  Superman 1, in contrast, is "comic history" significant because it is the first book solely devoted to a single superhero and was a huge boost to the superhero genre.  I don't think in assessing the "Tiers" of comics, that CA 1's "historical significance" outweighs Superman 1's.  And we know its rarity and value does not.  All we can say is that CA 1 debuted new characters and Superman 1 did not, but so did many comics and a fair number of those debuted much more popular characters than CA.  I will concede though that the enduring pop culture impact of a character should factor into the Tiers and that is one reason why I view CA 1 as a Tier 2 book.  But it should not be driving factor, which is why I view MC 1 as a Tier 2 book.

Just some thoughts.  Reasonable people will disagree.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

CA 1 is a great book.  But, it is not the "1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series."  It is not even the first appearance of a Timely hero debuting in his own self-titled series.  I believe that honor goes to Red Raven (Aug. 1940).  

I also think it is mistake to view CA 1 as containing a "real life connection to world history," but not Superman 1.  Superman started out as a New Deal liberal crusader for social justice.  In Superman 1, he stops a lynching, stops an unjust government death penalty execution, tackles a corrupt Senator, travels to South America to stop a war fomented by munitions manufacturers, and tackles unsafe conditions for mine workers!  That is far far far more "real world" in the context of its times, and much more adult, than Captain America engaging in the  fantasy of punching Hitler or battling the Red Skull.

Finally, I also think it is a mistake to equate significant "comic history" with the "first appearance" of a popular character.  Many many comics feature character first appearances.  And, the most popular characters debuted after the GA.  I believe that not all character first appearances are equal from a "comic history" perspective, which I think should be different than mere popularity.  Action 1 trumps all because it debuts the first superhero, even though Superman is not the most popular superhero.  CA 1 contains no "historical significance" other than introducing characters.  It did not create a new character archetype (CA was a ripoff in concept, design and origin of the first patriotic superhero The Shield, making Pep 1 arguably the more historically significant book if you ignore character popularity).  It IS a very cool book because it introduced the enduring characters of CA, Bucky and the Red Skull.  But, that's it.  Superman 1, in contrast, is "comic history" significant because it is the first book solely devoted to a single superhero and was a huge boost to the superhero genre.  I don't think in assessing the "Tiers" of comics, that CA 1's "historical significance" outweighs Superman 1's.  And we know its rarity and value does not.  All we can say is that CA 1 debuted new characters and Superman 1 did not, but so did many comics and a fair number of those debuted much more popular characters than CA.  I will concede though that the enduring pop culture impact of a character should factor into the Tiers and that is one reason why I view CA 1 as a Tier 2 book.  But it should not be driving factor, which is why I view MC 1 as a Tier 2 book.

Just some thoughts.  Reasonable people will disagree.

 

 

By your logic, the only two comic books that anyone should care about or carry any palpable significance are Action 1 and Superman 1, since the best that any other comic book could hope for after those is to be "the first appearance of a bunch of new characters".

You spent a lot of words saying it, but that's ridiculous.  

-J.

[sfcityduck]

13 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

By your logic, the only two comic books that anyone should care about or carry any palpable significance are Action 1 and Superman 1, since the best that any other comic book could hope for after those is to be "the first appearance of a bunch of new characters".

You spent a lot of words saying it, but that's ridiculous.  

-J.

Nah.  My view is that the "Tiers" of GA comics should be based on price, rarity, import to comic history, pop culture import (which is where I put character appearances and important story developments), aesthetics (e.g., cool cover, great interior art, etc.),  and there are probably some other factors worth considering like the identity of the original owner. 

There are plenty of comics, however, that tick "comic history" boxes.  Pep 1 introduced a new kind of superhero, the patriotic superhero.  AS 3 introduced the superhero team.  Triumph 1 introduced the first female superhero.  D38 introduced the first sidekick (I think).  Wonder 1 commenced Superman imitation.   There are many other milestones which are more than just introducing a new character, including the many non-superhero comic milestones like first anti-Nazi cover, first war comic, first SF comic, first horror comic, first romance comic, first crime comic, etc.  And there are other distinguishing factors like comics that were the focus of Wertham in SOTI, comics that were published without the CCA approval, etc.  The list is pretty long, and includes first comics by a publisher, first art by certain artists, etc. 

Collectors collect for a lot of reasons.  Aesthetics considerations that motivate cover oriented collectors seem almost limitless, and include cover artist, GGA, sharks, Hitler covers, etc.  

So I think there are a lot of reasons that a comic can be be significant to a collector.  But, for me, a Tier 1 book is primarily a rare combination of overwhelming price, rarity, import to comic history, and pop culture import.  I see CA 1 as Tier 2 due because of comparative weakness to Action 1, D27, and Superman 1 when those factors are considered.  It's firmly a top 10 book IMHO.  It's just not Top 3.  No slight on CA 1. 

[Wayne-Tec]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

CA 1 is a great book.  But, it is not the "1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series."  It is not even the first appearance of a Timely hero debuting in his own self-titled series.  I believe that honor goes to Red Raven (Aug. 1940).  

 

I also think it is mistake to view CA 1 as containing a "real life connection to world history," but not Superman 1.  Superman started out as a New Deal liberal crusader for social justice.  In Superman 1, he stops a lynching, stops an unjust government death penalty execution, tackles a corrupt Senator, travels to South America to stop a war fomented by munitions manufacturers, and tackles unsafe conditions for mine workers!  That is far far far more "real world" in the context of its times, and much more adult, than Captain America engaging in the  fantasy of punching Hitler or battling the Red Skull.

My previous post stated that: "Cap #1 is the only GA book to feature all of the following in one issue: 1st app. of a superhero debuting in his own self-titled series, origin of the superhero, 1st app. of that superhero's arch nemesis, 1st app. of the superhero's sidekick (who would go on to become a major villain, having a feature film named after him), classic cover and real life connection to world history."

No other GA book, to my knowledge, contains all of the above mentioned feats. In respects to Superman #1's historical-significance, you stated: "he stops a lynching, stops an unjust government death penalty execution, tackles a corrupt Senator, travels to South America to stop a war fomented by munitions manufacturers, and tackles unsafe conditions for mine workers!"...that's all Action Comics #1-3 content, not anything original to Superman #1.

I've touched on the real-world historical significance of Cap #1 earlier in this thread. Phrasing it as "engaging in the fantasy of punching Hitler.." comes across as if you're trying to belittle the content. My apologies if that's not the case. Yes it's fiction, but I believe Simon and Kirby had just as much heart behind their creation as Siegel and Shuster had behind theirs. One crusaded for social justice, the other against real life evil.

If you value "comic book history" over all, from a marketing perspective, Superman #1 tops Cap #1 and Batman #1 and it's not even close. From a marketing perspective, Superman #1 also tops Action #1 and Tec #27. It was the dawn of Superman's money making machine, and that is significant, especially for the history of comic books. I suppose it's apples and oranges to compare the importance of that to the importance of 1st appearances, classic covers and such. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

19 hours ago, jabats said:

moreover, it has been scientifically proven that Superman can beat any other superhero (marvel or D.C.) in a 1v1 fight. This isn't even debatable 

batman at the end of the day is just a rich dude with a few gadgets. And Cap is nowhere near the top of popularity in the marvel universe.

The last two Captain America movies beat the last two Superman movies at the box office. That isn't even debatable.  

Superman maybe the strongest dude,but more people find Cap and Batman far more interesting. The only time Superman has been relevant these last 25 years is when they killed him. They even had to kill him off again in Batman vs. Superman.

I am a big Superman fan,but going forward Batman and Captain America have a much better upside. I mean Cap and Batman are actually considered cool,modern and hip with today's audience while Superman is like the Lone Ranger/Tarzan/ Flash Gordon as in they were the kings of yesterday.

Eventually both Captain America #1 and Batman #1 will pass Superman #1, as so will Detective #27 pass Action #1 as the king of hill.

It won't happen overnight,but I love someone to bump this thread 10 years from now. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur