PGX Reputation Rehab? 3 3

[DR.X]

On 4/7/2018 at 2:28 AM, James J Johnson said:

And this one is garbage also. Signed by the same hand that forged the AS 31. Same handwriting. A ridiculous Ditko and an even more blatantly fake Lee. Whomever is slabbing these as authentic signatures rather than "names written on the cover" is as culpable as the one forging them.

 

well, It could be that there is a Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko that work for the streets and sanitation department  where he lives. That might explain this whole mess. Geesh, it could happen.

[mattn792]

1 hour ago, DR.X said:

well, It could be that there is a Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko that work for the streets and sanitation department  where he lives. That might explain this whole mess. Geesh, it could happen.

That was the first thing I thought when these got publicized - “Hey, the white pages says there’s a Steve Ditko living in Phoenix, maybe he signed this?”

[Mr. Zipper]

On 4/7/2018 at 4:00 AM, James J Johnson said:

anyone who would give credence to and legitimize these signatures above has no earthly business authenticating autographs, they have as much business doing so as the blind.

 

Of note, regarding the back cover Kirby signature: I've never seen a genuine Kirby autograph written anywhere else on a comic book other than on an inside page, typically a splash page margin, except for the Dynamic Forces cover signed Kirby autographs, which IMO are questionable, even though a COA accompanied them.

I completely agree on the alleged Lee and Ditko signatures. They appear to be stiffly drawn and malformed. Not even debatable IMO.

I am curious however, @James J Johnson why you consider the Dynamic Forces Kirby signed Marvel Milestone books "questionable."

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, Mr. Zipper said:

I completely agree on the alleged Lee and Ditko signatures. They appear to be stiffly drawn and malformed. Not even debatable IMO.

I am curious however, @James J Johnson why you consider the Dynamic Forces Kirby signed Marvel Milestone books "questionable."

There's no fluidity to them. Slant seems very minimal and it's overly blocky. I would think if he's signing 2500 of these, whenever he did sit down to sign a chunk of them, be it 5, 50, or a hundred at a time, the spontaneity would emerge through the repetitive rigidity. The artist. I see none of that in any of that DF Kirby signatures I've seen and I've seen quite a few more than are available to peruse online, which are only a few. They look rigid to me. I had a handwritten letter from Roz Kirby that I lost in a box in a move years back. I had written to Jack Kirby to express my concern and wishes for his health. She wrote back, thanking me for my letter. Like some, my belief is that Roz signed all or the majority of them was formed based on Roz's handwriting. Of note, one comic book autograph authenticator, the name of which I won't mention on this forum (rules?), will not authenticate the Dynamic Forces Kirby signatures, and based on the appearance of them, I'm not surprised, although I have seen instances of that authentication service being wrong, IMO, People that had pictures of them with an artist, getting a signature, that they turned down.

Edited April 8, 2018 by James J Johnson

[James J Johnson]

4 hours ago, mattn792 said:

That was the first thing I thought when these got publicized - “Hey, the white pages says there’s a Steve Ditko living in Phoenix, maybe he signed this?”

So if some enterprising grifter can get that Steve Ditko to start signing books, they can cash in!  Not even fraud to put "Autographed by Steve Ditko" in the title That Steve Ditko can even authorize the COA, who better, right?.  

You can carry this further. Just find a foreman somewhere named George and he can sign George Foreman pictures, "George; foreman", again, no lie.   

[Mr. Zipper]

RE: Jack KIrby Dynamic Forces signatures

 

Thanks for the info.

I agree that the Dynamic Forces signatures are carefully done and not as fluid as con sigs you'd see from the 60s and 70s, but I attributed it to the fact that he was old school and getting paid to add his signature. And he was getting up there in years. They don't appear any more "rigid" than the signatures I've seen on signed art prints, etc. from the early 90s.

I would have assumed Dynamic Forces would have brought the items to him and supervised the signing. Dozens of cases of Marvel Milestone FF #1s and X-Men #1s seems like an awful lot to ship him and ask him to do them himself - and then ship back.

While I wouldn't 100% rule out Roz because crazier things have happened, it would seem a stretch that she would have the skills to replicate his signature this closely. Even the best proxy signers take years to perfect the signature and there are still tell-tale signs. Despite being "careful," the formation is spot on and there are no signs of hesitation. Marker on comic covers is totally unforgiving... any hesitation or course correction would stick out like a sore thumb.

Interesting discussion though. Feel free to PM me any details you haven't shared previously. I'll also take a fresh look. Regards, Steve

Edited April 8, 2018 by Mr. Zipper

[Mr. Zipper]

7 minutes ago, StealthBomber said:

I saw this type of idea used in the ESPN 30 for 30 called The Counterfeiters. They were the biggest forger of signed sports memorabilia of all time (?) They found a guy named Jim DiMaggio to help them scam. He wasn't related to Joe at all, but all the COAs this companies produced said "J. DiMaggio Co." on them. They never said the "J" stood for Joe!

That was the Operation Bullpen bust of the Marino family forgery ring by the FBI. There is a book about it called “Operation Bullpen” by Kevin Nelson. Fascinating read. In fact, it’s going to be a movie as well. I believe they are in post production now. 

[James J Johnson]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Zipper said:

That was the Operation Bullpen bust of the Marino family forgery ring by the FBI. There is a book about it called “Operation Bullpen” by Kevin Nelson. Fascinating read. In fact, it’s going to be a movie as well. I believe they are in post production now. 

Have these investigating agencies stopped their work into forgery altogether? With what I'm seeing in the wild wild west (on ebay), they must be foregoing any investigations into forgeries. Perhaps unless brought directly to their attention, like I did with Tonfulle-84's Lee forgeries and PGX's unwitnessed signature series slabs.

Edited April 8, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Mr. Zipper]

59 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Have these investigating agencies stopped their work into forgery altogether? With what I'm seeing in the wild wild west (on ebay), they must be foregoing any investigations into forgeries. Perhaps unless brought directly to their attention, like I did with Tonfulle-84's Lee forgeries and PGX's unwitnessed signature series slabs.

It appears that way. There are at least two major forgery rings operating on eBay and elsewhere currently. We are talking many millions of dollars a year. Mostly sports and entertainment. They make the Marino ring look small time. Although, they follow the same playbook established by Marino. Now they are using so-called “forensic” authenticators with holograms to rubber stamp their fakes instead of generic certificate COAs from “J. DiMaggio.”

These people are operating in plain sight, much to the frustration of the legitimate side of the hobby. Maybe we’ll be pleasantly surprised by a major bust, but the speculation is that this is not on the radar of the FBI and others because of higher priorities such as terrorism, etc. 

[W16227]

On 4/8/2018 at 7:56 AM, DR.X said:

LOL. Didn't the mods yank the photos of all the boardies sitting around that room and in the closet. That was priceless.

 

- still around - I had to reread many pages of that old thread - still entertaining.

[HuddyBee]

Found something really interesting on PGX's website. Just thought it was interesting, they don't authenticate Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, or Jack Kirby signatures any more. Not quite sure when they changed this but, looks like those potential Ditko, Lee signatures can't be a problem anymore. I'm guessing they changed this since these signatures can greatly alter the value of a comic, therefore forgery is more likely.

[mattn792]

They probably changed it because they've been caught authenticating bogus Ditko, Kirby, and Lee signatures in the past (see the start of this page).  PGX didn't suddenly grow a conscience, they're probably taking some sage advice from their corporate lawyer/pizza guy.

Edited February 14, 2019 by mattn792

[kav]

56 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

they're probably taking some sage advice from their corporate lawyer/pizza guy.

Custom title!!!!

[Mr. Zipper]

4 hours ago, HuddyBee said:

Found something really interesting on PGX's website. Just thought it was interesting, they don't authenticate Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, or Jack Kirby signatures any more.

An "authenticator" who does not authenticate the three most popular signatures in the genre. 

Interesting approach.

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, Mr. Zipper said:

An "authenticator" who does not authenticate the three most popular signatures in the genre. 

Interesting approach.

Like if PSA would no longer be authenticating Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Ted Williams.