(help) Making a Comic Book 0

[HighRadArt]

On 9/26/2017 at 2:18 PM, HighRadArt said:

There's a few artist here and I know I saw another board member that published their own comic. Don't remember who it was but I believe it was a crime story.

I was thinking of board member Ryan. and his book Don't bid on the devil.

[stock_rotation]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:25 AM, cmixer said:

I am 100% okay with 'paying' an artist since it takes their time;

But what do i get for my money?
Do i get to keep the pages?
Do i get to keep the reproduction rights since you've already been compensated? 

Good conversation ... thanks ... 

You're typically going to end up in one of two scenarios:

1) You hire an artist as work-for-hire, and you own all the end product.

2) You partner with an artist and he/she reduces their per-page fee for a percentage of ownership.

Both sides have their pros and cons. Either way,  get a lawyer to draw up a contract. DO NOT DO THIS ON A HANDSHAKE.

[Senormac]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 6:22 PM, topofthetotem said:

Spike mulligan is the self published comic.

Just one of a few I'm sure, but thanks for remembering totem

Lots of good input here cmixer.  I think your end game goal is what you will need to define.  I think if you are looking to break into the business or have pro publisher pick up your book ( someone like Image or Dark Horse) then you are not really moving towards self publishing.  I may be wrong but I always thought of the self publishers as the guys who did it all themselves and then set up at comic shows to sell their book. 

My self publishing experience has yielded 6 full issues (so far).  It's been a great learning experience and lots of fun .  I have done ALL the inside work ( 133 pages of story and art to date ) and I  hired a pro artist for the covers. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Senormac]

   so what ever happened to cmixer .  He just disappeared

[Artboy99]

29 minutes ago, Senormac said:

   so what ever happened to cmixer .  He just disappeared

your answer lies within his date joined and total post count:

• 293 posts
• Joined: October 31, 2003

[Senormac]

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

35 minutes ago, Senormac said:

   so what ever happened to cmixer .  He just disappeared

your answer lies within his date joined and total post count:

• 293 posts
• Joined: October 31, 2003

You have a good point.  Still, I wonder about his project and which direction he is going to go

[HighRadArt]

3 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

your answer lies within his date joined and total post count:

• 293 posts
• Joined: October 31, 2003

Which is why I almost didn't bother with a reply. Not the first time someone has wanted to "make their own comic" and  won't be the last.

[Artboy99]

34 minutes ago, HighRadArt said:

Which is why I almost didn't bother with a reply. Not the first time someone has wanted to "make their own comic" and  won't be the last.

I agree. At the same time I always put myself out there as you never know.

I have been approached several times on the boards to be involved in producing a comic by writers, but in the end the compensation is always lacking. I am just not in a position to "take a chance".

I had a former board member send me a very well done ---script. I thought the story would go places but the writer could offer nothing up front for compensation other than a percentage of book sales. I have a mortgage to pay so I need to focus my time on jobs that I know earn.

I have my own book I am creating. I am doing the writing as well as the drawing. I think it is a very good story, but in the end even my own creation waits on the shelf.

FYI:

Getting your comic picked by a publisher/ distributor ( like IMAGE ) is like becoming a Hollywood actor. It is lightning in a bottle: they get thousands of submissions a month and pick one. Offering a percentage of ownership is not likely to entice a professional artist as they know the likelihood of getting return is very low. Also consider the volume of comics selling per month of any particular title. That number is rather low.

I have a friend who is local to me that draws comics for a living. His art has been published in titles for IMAGE. There was a story in a local newspaper about him last year, in the story it discussed his time working on the art from coffee shops and out on the street because he lost his apartment as he earned nothing for the previous 6 months of work on a title that didn't sell well. He earned nothing and became homeless!

http://www.vueweekly.com/roche-limit-took-illustrator-kyle-charles-to-some-weird-places/

“Life just got flipped upside down for me,” he says. “I had to go through getting over a loved one’s death and mild bouts of homelessness while I was drawing the book. Some of that book was drawn on the streets. Some of it was drawn on road trips, friend’s places or random people’s kitchen tables while I was looking for sleep. It was a really weird and wild time.” - Kyle Charles

Edited October 5, 2017 by Artboy99

[SteppinRazor]

16 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

I agree. At the same time I always put myself out there as you never know.

I have been approached several times on the boards to be involved in producing a comic by writers, but in the end the compensation is always lacking. I am just not in a position to "take a chance".

I had a former board member send me a very well done --script. I thought the story would go places but the writer could offer nothing up front for compensation other than a percentage of book sales. I have a mortgage to pay so I need to focus my time on jobs that I know earn.

I have my own book I am creating. I am doing the writing as well as the drawing. I think it is a very good story, but in the end even my own creation waits on the shelf.

FYI:

Getting your comic picked by a publisher/ distributor ( like IMAGE ) is like becoming a Hollywood actor. It is lightning in a bottle: they get thousands of submissions a month and pick one. Offering a percentage of ownership is not likely to entice a professional artist as they know the likelihood of getting return is very low. Also consider the volume of comics selling per month of any particular title. That number is rather low.

I have a friend who is local to me that draws comics for a living. His art has been published in titles for IMAGE. There was a story in a local newspaper about him last year, in the story it discussed his time working on the art from coffee shops and out on the street because he lost his apartment as he earned nothing for the previous 6 months of work on a title that didn't sell well. He earned nothing and became homeless!

When even Top Cow and other established creators need to go to kickstarter to fund a project, it seems like there's just not much by way of options to get a comic made.  And if the person trying to make a comic book wants to keep the art and the rights, it's awfully tough to expect another to front all their time and cost now to pay their bills months later.  One either has to run the kickstarter first, or instead of asking someone else to pony up, pony up oneself to pay for the ownership of the project by hiring the artist.

[HighRadArt]

I'm not looking to self publish but I am curious so how about a hypothetical in today's prices?

I want to make a 20 page comic with a cover by a known artist. Let's keep it simple at 1000 copies ( unless there's a higher minimum I'm unaware of).

[Artboy99]

19 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

When even Top Cow and other established creators need to go to kickstarter to fund a project, it seems like there's just not much by way of options to get a comic made.  And if the person trying to make a comic book wants to keep the art and the rights, it's awfully tough to expect another to front all their time and cost now to pay their bills months later.  One either has to run the kickstarter first, or instead of asking someone else to pony up, pony up oneself to pay for the ownership of the project by hiring the artist.

Therein lies the challenge.

Becoming an artist that can expect to be paid for their work takes many years of training and development.

Being an Artist is like being in a trade: if you hire a plumber you expect to compensate the professional to complete the work by paying an hourly rate and paying for the materials and supplies.

A professional artist has spent many years training and learning their trade. If you want your comic that you have written to be successful you have to hire an artist that has the skills. The art needs to be good enough to catch the eyes of the publisher/ distributor. If the art looks amateur they won't give it a second.

Trust me, I have been through it myself. I had the president of Avatar Press in my booth a few years ago and I asked if he would look at my comic / art. He reluctantly said ok after a rather audible sigh and took 1 second to look at my pages and didn't give me any feedback at all. He couldn't be bothered. Rather humbling for someone that has drawn professionally for over 30 years.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Artboy99

[Artboy99]

10 minutes ago, HighRadArt said:

I'm not looking to self publish but I am curious so how about a hypothetical in today's prices?

I want to make a 20 page comic with a cover by a known artist. Let's keep it simple at 1000 copies ( unless there's a higher minimum I'm unaware of).

Contact a local printer for price quotes to print 11 pages front and back. 1000 copies of full color for the cover on a paper stock that is adequate for a comic book, then 1000 copies x 10 pages front and back in black and white.

I am assuming you would do all the layout so the printer doesn't have to do any setup work to minimize your costs.

My quote for 1000 copies was $5000.00 CDN

That would include folding and binding ( staples x2 per copy )

If I sell each copy at $5.00 I break even on my printing costs.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Artboy99

[HighRadArt]

6 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

Contact a local printer for price quotes to print 11 pages front and back. 1000 copies of full color for the cover on a paper stock that is adequate for a comic book, then 1000 copies x 10 pages front and back in black and white.

I am assuming you would do all the layout so the printer doesn't have to do any setup work to minimize your costs.

My quote for 1000 copies was $5000.00 CDN

That would include folding and binding ( staples x2 per copy )

If I sell each copy at $5.00 I break even on my printing costs.

$5000 just to print it but what if I need an artist?  What would be the average rate per page? $100? $200? 

[Artboy99]

4 minutes ago, HighRadArt said:

$5000 just to print it but what if I need an artist?  What would be the average rate per page? $100? $200? 

depends on the artist but yes your numbers are reasonable for a single page pencilled.

You need to hire an inker and a letterer as well.

How about for simplicity we say you can get a single page completed: drawn in pencils then inked and with lettering added for $400 per page.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Artboy99

[HighRadArt]

6 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

depends on the artist but yes your numbers are reasonable for a single page pencilled.

You need to hire an inker and a letterer as well.

How about for simplicity we say you can get a single page completed: drawn in pencils then inked and with lettering added for $400 per page.

Are you talking lettering on the page or with an editing program on a computer?

[HighRadArt]

Wow. I was thinking $10k for kickstarter but we're already at $13k. 

[WoWitHurts]

15 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

Contact a local printer for price quotes to print 11 pages front and back. 1000 copies of full color for the cover on a paper stock that is adequate for a comic book, then 1000 copies x 10 pages front and back in black and white.

I am assuming you would do all the layout so the printer doesn't have to do any setup work to minimize your costs.

My quote for 1000 copies was $5000.00 CDN

That would include folding and binding ( staples x2 per copy )

If I sell each copy at $5.00 I break even on my printing costs.

Do not contact a local printer, their prices will be astronomical.  I would contact printers that print comics. Get quotes from places like transcontinental printing inc. (Canada), Quad/Graphics (MN). Or like a lot of Independents you can use http://www.printninja.com/ which for a 4 color 20 page book shipped to Chicago (for example) costs $1450US (for $50 more you can get 1200 copies).  They use the same weight paper as marvel etc. Takes a little longer to get your books so some planning is necessary.

Go to a con and talk to some artists you like in the artist alley area and you will be able to get a skilled penciler for $150US-$250US and an inker for $75 or so. There are more people out there that want to work in comics than read comics I think sometimes so it is not hard to find good artists.

 

[Artboy99]

5 minutes ago, HighRadArt said:

Are you talking lettering on the page or with an editing program on a computer?

most would prefer to do lettering in computer editing the art.

Some will do it manually on the pages.

[Artboy99]

4 minutes ago, WoWitHurts said:

Do not contact a local printer, their prices will be astronomical.  I would contact printers that print comics. Get quotes from places like transcontinental printing inc. (Canada), Quad/Graphics (MN). Or like a lot of Independents you can use http://www.printninja.com/ which for a 4 color 20 page book shipped to Chicago (for example) costs $1450US (for $50 more you can get 1200 copies).  They use the same weight paper as marvel etc. Takes a little longer to get your books so some planning is necessary.

Go to a con and talk to some artists you like in the artist alley area and you will be able to get a skilled penciler for $150US-$250US and an inker for $75 or so. There are more people out there that want to work in comics than read comics I think sometimes so it is not hard to find good artists.

 

awesome, it pays to shop around and have discussions like this on the boards.

My prices were in CDN, so I am not off at all on the art. 150US -$250US + $75 is the same rate I quoted.

So 1000 copies is now $1450 US printing and your art cost is $275-325 US

Edited October 5, 2017 by Artboy99

[AndyFish]

I wasn't going to respond to this either but maybe it helps someone else.

I've got something like 20 graphic novels and HOW TO DRAW books from various publishers as well as self published work.  My first self published graphic novel sold about 500 copies and I spent the next five or six years chugging these to cons to try and move them.

My last self published book moved about 28K copies with a lot of sales through libraries and traditional book distribution.    A graphic novel I did with comedy writer Steve Altes hit $45K on Kickstarter and even a bit more after the campaign was over as funding kept coming in.  A very positive experience.

So the above is my credentials-- you can look me up on the all knowing Wikipedia if you want more info.

To anyone planning on embarking on this road as a writer you really have only a few options;

1. Devote all of your free time to learn how to draw, then learn how to do sequentials.  The looks I get from people who can't draw when I suggest this are priceless.  There is a point when none of us can draw and yet all of us do-- childhood.  The kids who keep on drawing are the ones who learn to draw.  Ditto the kid that sticks with guitar, or piano or any other creative endeavor.  There is an element of talent but it's mostly sweat.  Draw everyday for hours a day and over the course of a year you will see a genuinue improvement.  After two or three years your work will approach pro level (and keep in mind some of the most popular artists working in the independents have very crude styles that are marketable) so as laughable as this method sounds in the long run I think it's your best option.  I've been teaching adults to draw for about 15 years now and I've seen it work time and time again.  This will eliminate the headaches you're going to find with your other options...

2. Find an artist you can afford and offer them some kind of spec with hopefully a base pay of sorts.  This is your WORST option.  Why?  Because you'll be signing contracts and such and now you have given over half or a third of your project rights to someone who has done nothing except maybe the sample page you asked them to draw before you chose them.   Good news you like this artist, bad news this artist is not a professional and pages are going to be late. 

How do I know this?  Because professionals are busy doing work that actually pays the bills and they aren't wasting their time taking a shot at an unproven property.   You are going to face years of headaches as you hope for pages, meanwhile the artist will work on your project when they can because they need to do other work to pay the bills.    Worse yet, if the artist you agreed to work with is actually good and just starting out, they are going to get work that actually pays which will lure them from your project and contract or no contract you'll still be regulated to the back burner.  You can write into the contract that the whole project is due in 30 days but in 31 days when you have five pages from them are you really going to file court papers to enforce the contract?  What do you think will compe of the collaboration going this way?

2A. Put your house up for a home equity loan and pull out the full $5-$8k a pro artist is going to get paid for a fully rendered 22 page book.  How much do you believe in your project?  You're asking an artist to put up his time and passing on regular paying gigs in option 2 above-- put your money where your mouth is.  You'll have all rights to the art and content.  You won't get the original art unless you make some kind of arrangement up front.  The norm is such that artists get the work back and are able to resell it in the off chance your book is popular, so don't think paying pro rates means you'll get the art.  A lot of creators (the majority?) are now working digitally so there's a real chance there is no original anyway.

2B. Do a combination of the two-- you can find a new pro for likely around $200/page but you want to make sure whoever you're hiring works as a comic artist FULL time.  This will mean a timely turnover of the project, if the artist believes in the project they may be willing to work for slightly less money if you give them a piece of the ownership-- especially the licensing should this get picked up for film or TV.

BUT no matter what you do DO NOT approach a student.  The last thing you need is someone who is just figuring out how to do this.  I don't care how talented they are, you will regret this choice.  I work with a lot of talented college students right now and not one of them would be one I'd recommend if someone asked. 

You could take whatever pro pages you have-- say you can only afford $2k to get 10 pages done-- take those 10 pages and try doing a kickstarter for them.  Do your math for what printing and publishing and shipping will cost as well as creator expenses (pay yourself) and ask for a little bit more.  Figure out a good rewards program and put a lot of work into your promotion video to sell your concept-- then turn on full marketing mode for the 30 days the campaign is up and push the hell out of it.

Self publishing is a hassle but it can be profitable but it takes a lot of work and a lot of thought.